Did Quarry hang 'em up too soon?

[sweetviolenturge]

I see that a decade old thread about Jerry just resurfaced & I debated using it for this post, but I wanted to attract fresh eyes to this new discussion & figured that this one might do the trick. Now, please, allow me to explain myself.
Yesterday, for the first time since it's live broadcast back on Nov. 5, 1977 I watched the Quarry-Lorenzo Zanon fight on YouTube. I wanted to see if it was as horribly one-sided as I remembered it as being & to my surprise it wasn't.
Now, the big difference from the original broadcast & the video on YouTube is the commentary. As I recall it, Howard Cosell called it live & he spent the entire fight disparaging Quarry & his performance. Saying how much of a disgrace it was that Quarry had come back after two plus years following his loss to Norton to fight an "inferior", "unknown" fighter like Zanon & being troubled by him so badly. Cosell was just brutal.
And, even though Quarry finally worked off enough ring rust & got enough of his timing back to cut the ring off & win rounds 7 & 8 before knocking Zanon out in round 9, he was so discouraged by his performance that he retired again.
Unfortunately, he decided to make another comeback when his finances suffered some setbacks in 1983 & horribly, again in 1992.

Therein lies my question - would Jerry have been better off continuing to fight a couple/few more times after the Zanon fight while he still had something left if it would have prevented him from taking part in those later comebacks?

I look forward to reading your replies & thoughts on this matter.
Thanks.
- Jim

[sweetviolenturge]

OK friends, a few more thoughts about this subject before there are any comments.

Obviously, Quarry didn't have much left. Not against Norton in '75 when he was battered into a fifth round TKO defeat & certainly not against Zanon two plus years later. But, he still had enough left in the tank to be competitive with Norton for the first three rounds & he was still capable of knocking out a world class fighter in Zanon after a long layoff.
Now, some may scoff at the notion of Zanon being a world class fighter since every time he was seen Stateside he was getting belted out by Americans. But those three Americans were not your run of the mill heavyweights in Ken Norton, Quarry & Larry Holmes in Zanon's lone bid for world title honors. And, he gave Norton some issues for the first couple of rounds & outboxed Quarry for much of the first seven rounds. It was only against Holmes that he was completely outclassed from start to finish.
In Europe, the Italian held the EBU title for quite a stretch back when that title was at least as important of a title as today's WBO title. And, oddly enough he beat another long-time, multi-time EBU heavyweight champ twice in Alfredo Evangelista, both times right before Evangelista's own world title opportunities against Muhammad Ali & Larry Holmes.
With my point in all this being that although he looked bad against Zanon, Quarry did beat a decent fighter once he caught up to him.
So, given another tune up to shake the rest of the ring rust off, Quarry may have been able to beat another lower echelon contender like the afore-mentioned Evangelista or a Randy Stephens, maybe a Scott Ledoux. And, had he won, it would have likely been enough to put him into position for a title shot. Especially during the stretch in which Larry Holmes was regularly defending against such stalwarts as Evangelista, Ozzie Ocasio & a then-completely unknown Mike Weaver.
Certainly, ABC ( which, back in the day televised almost all heavyweight title fights ) would have booked a name like Jerry Quarry over any of them. Sure, Cosell would have jumped on his soapbox some, but ratings consideration would have won out.
Of course, had Quarry actually managed to get the opportunity he'd have been chopped up & stopped in about three to six rounds.

Would the damage that Quarry would have taken with a couple more fights in 1978 have done less damage to his long term health than the damage that he suffered in his subsequent comebacks six years & fifteen years later? Especially considering that he made an ill-advised cut down to cruiserweight on both occasions?
Of course, there's no way of knowing. And, sadly,I'm sure that poor Jerry was destined to suffer from catastrophic pugilistic dementia no matter what.

[gilgamesh]

I see that a decade old thread about Jerry just resurfaced & I debated using it for this post, but I wanted to attract fresh eyes to this new discussion & figured that this one might do the trick. Now, please, allow me to explain myself.
Yesterday, for the first time since it's live broadcast back on Nov. 5, 1977 I watched the Quarry-Lorenzo Zanon fight on YouTube. I wanted to see if it was as horribly one-sided as I remembered it as being & to my surprise it wasn't.
Now, the big difference from the original broadcast & the video on YouTube is the commentary. As I recall it, Howard Cosell called it live & he spent the entire fight disparaging Quarry & his performance. Saying how much of a disgrace it was that Quarry had come back after two plus years following his loss to Norton to fight an "inferior", "unknown" fighter like Zanon & being troubled by him so badly. Cosell was just brutal.
And, even though Quarry finally worked off enough ring rust & got enough of his timing back to cut the ring off & win rounds 7 & 8 before knocking Zanon out in round 9, he was so discouraged by his performance that he retired again.
Unfortunately, he decided to make another comeback when his finances suffered some setbacks in 1983 & horribly, again in 1992.

Therein lies my question - would Jerry have been better off continuing to fight a couple/few more times after the Zanon fight while he still had something left if it would have prevented him from taking part in those later comebacks?

I look forward to reading your replies & thoughts on this matter.
Thanks.
- Jim

Boxing's definitely a sport where comebacks once you're past your prime and have already had lengthy retirements isn't a good thing, but almost every fighter does it. Quarry probably would've been better off to keep going in 1977 and the late 70's rather than coming back in the 80's and 90's, but really he just should've been finding another way to make a living altogether at that point. He may have never suffered from Pugilistic Dementia if he hadn't come back after the Norton fight.

[Tony1244]

In retrospect, Quarry should have retired after Frazier 2 or after the Norton fight at the latest. But hindsight is always 20/20, right? I'm not sure I agree with your given here. Let's say Quarry fought on relatively soon after the Zanon fight and beat a Stephens, Evangelista or a LeDoux in 1978. Let's say he won them in hard scraps and got a fight with Holmes. Holmes stops a tired and bleeding Quarry in the middle rounds, I think is a reasonable guess.

If all the above happened, he still may have had more comeback fights in the 1980s and 1990s. If he had fought on in the late 1970s, it doesn't mean he wouldn't have had another comeback decades later.

Quarry is one of the fighters that got me interested in the sport. It would have been reasonable to suggest he retire in 1972 after his second loss to Ali, but then we never would have seen his comeback wins against Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers in 1973.

[BoxBuzz]

This is always an interesting subject.

But I have always had a single answer for this, at least the one from my heart.

The time for any fighter to quit, is when they are good and ready, and not one minute in advance of that. I have this thing about personal freedom.


On the other hand, anyone can sit around and chew the fat on the moment any sportsman including fighters "lose their edge" and should retire.

I understand that with fighters the consequences are bigger, than with chess players, golfers, or hedge fund managers. But nevertheless, it should never be anyone's call but the individuals.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Didn't both Jerry and his brother Mike have a lot of health problem's later in life memory loss etc etc etc so to even suggest Jerry retired to early is silly I remember Mike Quarry fighting in the early 80's when he got interviewed after the fight he said something along the line's that he enjoyed his time in London and that the England people were friendly problem was Mike was in Sydney Australia Not London England

[Kalan]

I see that a decade old thread about Jerry just resurfaced & I debated using it for this post, but I wanted to attract fresh eyes to this new discussion & figured that this one might do the trick. Now, please, allow me to explain myself.
Yesterday, for the first time since it's live broadcast back on Nov. 5, 1977 I watched the Quarry-Lorenzo Zanon fight on YouTube. I wanted to see if it was as horribly one-sided as I remembered it as being & to my surprise it wasn't.
Now, the big difference from the original broadcast & the video on YouTube is the commentary. As I recall it, Howard Cosell called it live & he spent the entire fight disparaging Quarry & his performance. Saying how much of a disgrace it was that Quarry had come back after two plus years following his loss to Norton to fight an "inferior", "unknown" fighter like Zanon & being troubled by him so badly. Cosell was just brutal.
And, even though Quarry finally worked off enough ring rust & got enough of his timing back to cut the ring off & win rounds 7 & 8 before knocking Zanon out in round 9, he was so discouraged by his performance that he retired again.
Unfortunately, he decided to make another comeback when his finances suffered some setbacks in 1983 & horribly, again in 1992.

Therein lies my question - would Jerry have been better off continuing to fight a couple/few more times after the Zanon fight while he still had something left?

Quarry had severe problems.. He didn't have the dedication to get the most out of his talent... He looked sharp in the Thad Spencer fight, probably the best fight of his career.. He was sharp for Ron Lyle -- he turned in a good performance there too.. He knew he could knock Earnie Shavers and Mac Foster out.. He wasn't impressed with their abilities to take a punch or their defensive skills---so he trained intelligently and got himself ready.. He trained harder and smarter when he felt confident of victory.. He hardly trained at all or actually over trained in spurts when his confidence was severely lacking..

His attitude was a cross between Buster Douglas and Tyson Fury.. When Jerry felt like getting fat and not training hard or consistently, that's what he did -- usually for his more important fights like the Chuvalo, Norton, and Frazier II fights.. He had no confidence going into those fights because he knew damned well he didn't train well and wasn't ready to fight.. When he felt like sounding mentally unhinged he could do that too -- but unlike they do today with Fury, the press didn't print Jerry's rants.. Quarry was a bit of a hero and the press didn't want to destroy him.. And much like Buster Douglas he went into periods where he lacked any motivation, got deeply depressed, and just wouldn't make an effort.

[sweetviolenturge]

Interesting insights guys. I appreciate & enjoy them all. Thanks.
I've always found Quarry such an interested fighter/figure because I didn't begin to follow the sport & become a boxing fanatic until early 1976m when I was 14. So, while I read all about him & his career a lot in all the boxing magazines that I bought on the newsstand new & the hundreds that I got on the cheap at second-hand stores that were so common back then & via mail order as well, I only ever got the chance to see him fight live that one time on the Norton-Young undercard.

[sweetviolenturge]

Didn't both Jerry and his brother Mike have a lot of health problem's later in life memory loss etc etc etc so to even suggest Jerry retired to early is silly I remember Mike Quarry fighting in the early 80's when he got interviewed after the fight he said something along the line's that he enjoyed his time in London and that the England people were friendly problem was Mike was in Sydney Australia Not London England

Yes, Clive. Unfortunately, both Jerry & Mike suffered from two of the most horrific cases of Pugilistic Dementia that I've ever read about. As did their lesser known, younger brother Bobby. Though, I don't think his health issues were quite as pervasive.
To my recollection, Jerry & Mike's problems were the most severe that I've ever read about. With only Wilfred Benitez being on par with the Quarry bros..
I can't recall which one it was, either Jerry or Mike ( but I want to say it was Jerry ), but their poor eldest brother Jack was left with the responsibility of caring for him pretty much around the clock which was hard as hell for him to handle as Jerry had no savings or pension, so Jack couldn't get him into a proper care facility or pay for all the home care nursing he needed.
So, Jerry would often wander off with the idea that he had to begin training for a fight. So, he's begin doing roadwork at various odd hours & continue running until he was hopelessly lost. And during one such incident, he was seen running near some RR tracks & the lower part of his body was absolutely soaked in a massive amount of blood. Once he was rescued it was discovered that at some point early on in his "roadwork" he'd stepped on the cut off base of a RR crossing sign that was left sticking up about 8" out of the ground, completely impaling his foot up through the bottom out through the top & his dementia was so bad that he never felt it & continued running on it for miles until he'd nearly collapsed from blood loss!
The damage to his foot was so terrible & the subsequent post-surgical infection so bad that I'm pretty sure that they had to amputate part of his foot. All this, just a couple of years before the dementia degenerated his brain to the point where it took his life.
Mike died the same way.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Didn't both Jerry and his brother Mike have a lot of health problem's later in life memory loss etc etc etc so to even suggest Jerry retired to early is silly I remember Mike Quarry fighting in the early 80's when he got interviewed after the fight he said something along the line's that he enjoyed his time in London and that the England people were friendly problem was Mike was in Sydney Australia Not London England

Yes, Clive. Unfortunately, both Jerry & Mike suffered from two of the most horrific cases of Pugilistic Dementia that I've ever read about. As did their lesser known, younger brother Bobby. Though, I don't think his health issues were quite as pervasive.
To my recollection, Jerry & Mike's problems were the most severe that I've ever read about. With only Wilfred Benitez being on par with the Quarry bros..
I can't recall which one it was, either Jerry or Mike ( but I want to say it was Jerry ), but their poor eldest brother Jack was left with the responsibility of caring for him pretty much around the clock which was hard as hell for him to handle as Jerry had no savings or pension, so Jack couldn't get him into a proper care facility or pay for all the home care nursing he needed.
So, Jerry would often wander off with the idea that he had to begin training for a fight. So, he's begin doing roadwork at various odd hours & continue running until he was hopelessly lost. And during one such incident, he was seen running near some RR tracks & the lower part of his body was absolutely soaked in a massive amount of blood. Once he was rescued it was discovered that at some point early on in his "roadwork" he'd stepped on the cut off base of a RR crossing sign that was left sticking up about 8" out of the ground, completely impaling his foot up through the bottom out through the top & his dementia was so bad that he never felt it & continued running on it for miles until he'd nearly collapsed from blood loss!
The damage to his foot was so terrible & the subsequent post-surgical infection so bad that I'm pretty sure that they had to amputate part of his foot. All this, just a couple of years before the dementia degenerated his brain to the point where it took his life.
Mike died the same way.

Mate that's so sad and that reminds me why I hate people taking advantage of fighter's and even in the amateur's same as the professional's there is always seems to be that someone out to fu.k you over

[Caractacus]

I remember reading an article in Sports Illustrated aound 1983 where it said Jerry Quarry was already suffering from
pugiltica dementia,but I also remember him being a ring side commentator around that time,
and I thought he sounded really lucid.
It must have came over him real fast and all the sudden almost.
when was the lastime he was a ringside commentar for CBS ?

[Caractacus]

Here is Jerry Quarry doing some commentery in September 1976.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW0SA5tZb5Q

[sweetsci]

As I understand it, Jerry was under contract with CBS as a color commentator, but somehow violated that contract when he fought Lorenzo Zanon on ABC. Jerry then lost his job with CBS. I don't think he did much, if any, commentating after that. Too bad, Jerry was a decent commentator and could have had a good long second career.

[sweetviolenturge]

As I understand it, Jerry was under contract with CBS as a color commentator, but somehow violated that contract when he fought Lorenzo Zanon on ABC. Jerry then lost his job with CBS. I don't think he did much, if any, commentating after that. Too bad, Jerry was a decent commentator and could have had a good long second career.

Yeah, now that you mention it, I do recall reading bits & pieces about that back in the day.
Poor guy couldn't catch a break. He was a decent commentator too.
I'm sure that dealing with all that took his mind off of continuing his comeback after the Zanon fight as well. That, plus the criticism he got for struggling him.
Still, if he just HAD to fight a few more times in his life, I wish he's have done so while he still had a wee bit left & could still protect himself a bit rather than in '83 & '92 when he was basically helpless.

[Bricks]

This is always an interesting subject.

But I have always had a single answer for this, at least the one from my heart.

The time for any fighter to quit, is when they are good and ready, and not one minute in advance of that. I have this thing about personal freedom.


On the other hand, anyone can sit around and chew the fat on the moment any sportsman including fighters "lose their edge" and should retire.

I understand that with fighters the consequences are bigger, than with chess players, golfers, or hedge fund managers. But nevertheless, it should never be anyone's call but the individuals.

This is the thing......boxing is a sport where u aren't allowed past a certain age to have an off day or off training camp......

if you're 34 and SRL and u get whipped by terry Norris, no one is gonna listen when u say the inactivity, the divorce, your late ankle injury and the miscalculation to fight at a lower weight u hadn't been for 9 years made a detrimental impact.

Than on top of that inside u know as a fighter the drugs ,drink and partying u u been doing also led to the defeat.....not age or wear and tear........but boxing journalists and fans don't listen......shot is shot to them............my attitude is the fighter knows best.........Roberto duran is a prime example.....he looked shot and rejuvenated in the eyes of the writers several times in his career during the 1980s.....but really he was just the same but experiencing mixed training camps, fight nights and preperations

He turned up fat and unmotivated vs lawlor but 5 years later was being robbed v Camacho and beating castro

[sweetviolenturge]

VERY good points Bricks.

And, you're spot on about the SRL - Norris affair. More so than anyone else I've known or spoken to my friend. Seriously.
That fight has always pissed me off because I've always felt that as good as Norris was, he just wasn't in Leonard's league.
Why Leonard & his people would choose to cut down to a weight that Leonard hadn't had to make in seven years after a 15 month layoff to fight a much younger, quicker opponent in a fight that fans really hadn't demanded at all, I'll never understand.
If Leonard was determined to prove something against Norris, then he should have fought someone at 160, knocked some rust off & then scheduled his next fight vs Norris. It wasn't like Norris was going anywhere.

[SenorPipino]

It is pretty silly to suggest that Quarry retired too soon.

The poor guy died of boxing related dementia. If anything he fought too long. But in truth, most fighters do.

Quarry was finished as a serious contender after he was KO'd by Frazier in 1974. It was a fight that Quarry was actually favored to win.

He took the Norton fight on late notice about a year later and was pummeled. At that point he should have hung up the gloves permanently.

What I remember about the Zanon fight was that Quarry had next to nothing.

Zanon was, at best, a fringe contender, with no punch and no chin. (Of course in today's dismal heavyweight division, he might be an alphabet champion.)

He was just quick and spent most of the bout running around the ring, peppering a very slow Quarry with jabs and occasional right hands.

Quarry lumbered after him but could rarely catch up.

I don't think that Quarry's timing magically returned in the late rounds as was suggested by sweetviolenturge.

It seems that all that frantic, almost frightened, movement simply tired out Zanon and Quarry was finally able to catch up and tag the Italian's soft chin and take him out.

Quarry knew immediately he had nothing left anymore---he was an old 32---and was fortunate to simply caught lightning in a bottle.

He wisely retired until the urge to fight and undoubtedly the need for money lured him back in the 1980s.

Quarry had a few unfortunate winning bouts against tomato cans, retired again, and for some reason (money problems?) surfaced a final time in the early 90s.

He was beaten by another nobody in a tank town and finally called it quits for good.

The damage was undoubtedly done long before the 80s comeback bouts.

I too recall that 1983 Sports Illustrated article. I believe it reported that psychological testing----along with a CAT scan was done on Quarry's brain---revealed a degree of atrophy and a decline in some cognitive skills.

I think Quarry threatened to sue SI over the report (even though he agreed to the examination and testing) but of course he died 16 years later in very bad shape.

He was only 53.

You can decide on your own whether Jerry Quarry hung 'em up too soon.

[Kalan]

VERY good points Bricks.

And, you're spot on about the SRL - Norris affair. More so than anyone else I've known or spoken to my friend. Seriously.
That fight has always pissed me off because I've always felt that as good as Norris was, he just wasn't in Leonard's league.
Why Leonard & his people would choose to cut down to a weight that Leonard hadn't had to make in seven years after a 15 month layoff to fight a much younger, quicker opponent in a fight that fans really hadn't demanded at all, I'll never understand.
If Leonard was determined to prove something against Norris, then he should have fought someone at 160, knocked some rust off & then scheduled his next fight vs Norris. It wasn't like Norris was going anywhere.

Norris was more than in Leonard's league in skills, speed, and punching power... Leonard had a much better chin of course... but Leonard couldn't access Norris's chin.. He couldn't take advantage of it because his weapons weren't sharp enough.. You have to remember the reason Leonard was fighting Norris at that time. SRL wanted no part of the Middleweight scene which featured Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, and Julian Jackson as the 3 Middleweight Champions.. James Toney was coming up and would soon knock Nunn stiff... Leonard never defended the Middleweight Title he won from Hagler -- and the reason is there were a lot of great Middleweights in the years following Hagler's retirement. Ray fought Norris who had been crushed by Jackson a couple fights earlier.. Leonard went to 154 to escape the Middleweight Division ... much like Canelo did to avoid Triple-G.

[Caractacus]

I thought Lorenzo Zanon moved around the ring pretty good,
he would have made it difficult for anyone to try and just catch him.

[sweetviolenturge]

It is pretty silly to suggest that Quarry retired too soon.

The poor guy died of boxing related dementia. If anything he fought too long. But in truth, most fighters do.

Quarry was finished as a serious contender after he was KO'd by Frazier in 1974. It was a fight that Quarry was actually favored to win.

He took the Norton fight on late notice about a year later and was pummeled. At that point he should have hung up the gloves permanently.

What I remember about the Zanon fight was that Quarry had next to nothing.

Zanon was, at best, a fringe contender, with no punch and no chin. (Of course in today's dismal heavyweight division, he might be an alphabet champion.)

He was just quick and spent most of the bout running around the ring, peppering a very slow Quarry with jabs and occasional right hands.

Quarry lumbered after him but could rarely catch up.

I don't think that Quarry's timing magically returned in the late rounds as was suggested by sweetviolenturge.

It seems that all that frantic, almost frightened, movement simply tired out Zanon and Quarry was finally able to catch up and tag the Italian's soft chin and take him out.

Quarry knew immediately he had nothing left anymore---he was an old 32---and was fortunate to simply caught lightning in a bottle.

He wisely retired until the urge to fight and undoubtedly the need for money lured him back in the 1980s.

Quarry had a few unfortunate winning bouts against tomato cans, retired again, and for some reason (money problems?) surfaced a final time in the early 90s.

He was beaten by another nobody in a tank town and finally called it quits for good.

The damage was undoubtedly done long before the 80s comeback bouts.

I too recall that 1983 Sports Illustrated article. I believe it reported that psychological testing----along with a CAT scan was done on Quarry's brain---revealed a degree of atrophy and a decline in some cognitive skills.

I think Quarry threatened to sue SI over the report (even though he agreed to the examination and testing) but of course he died 16 years later in very bad shape.

He was only 53.

You can decide on your own whether Jerry Quarry hung 'em up too soon.

Senor Pipino - Yes, the title of this thread is pretty misleading my friend, but that was by design, just to get more eyeballs on it & increase the conversations.
And, you're quite correct, Quarry certainly didn't need to be fighting any longer than he already had been, but the point of the question was more of a "what if?". Peace.

[Kalan]

Quarry had an age old problem. He hated training. Often he wasn't in shape for his fights.

When you start boxing very young...and turn pro very young... and continue with Boxing for many years... it can be a pain in the ass... It's very different if your dedicated to the craft and really into the science.. Then you enjoy being the best and trying to get better every day.. You not only enjoy your fights, but you enjoy sparring and training because everything you try is working well and you keep getting better.. It happens like you envisioned it so it's a dream come true.

But if you lose 9 times like Quarry did, and you've taken a few beatings, then training becomes tougher.. You start hating it because you know it's undermining your health.. And you know when you beat somebody up you're undermining their health.. Quarry would forget somebody's name who he knew all his life.. He sounded fine, but he'd be driving down the street and forget where he's going.. He knew he should quit boxing, but the money he made, win or lose, was better than any regular job he qualified for.. So he didn't like himself -- and he hated the sport, and he often said he wished he did anything else but become a fighter.

[sweetviolenturge]

Quarry had an age old problem. He hated training. Often he wasn't in shape for his fights.

When you start boxing very young...and turn pro very young... and continue with Boxing for many years... it can be a pain in the ass... It's very different if your dedicated to the craft and really into the science.. Then you enjoy being the best and trying to get better every day.. You not only enjoy your fights, but you enjoy sparring and training because everything you try is working well and you keep getting better.. It happens like you envisioned it so it's a dream come true.

But if you lose 9 times like Quarry did, and you've taken a few beatings, then training becomes tougher.. You start hating it because you know it's undermining your health.. And you know when you beat somebody up you're undermining their health.. Quarry would forget somebody's name who he knew all his life.. He sounded fine, but he'd be driving down the street and forget where he's going.. He knew he should quit boxing, but the money he made, win or lose, was better than any regular job he qualified for.. So he didn't like himself -- and he hated the sport, and he often said he wished he did anything else but become a fighter.

Great points Kalan & accurate as hell.
Been there, done that myself. Not, of course, to anywhere near the level of a world class fighter.
In my case, I was a decent regional amateur that finished 22-5, fought a handful of pro fights & ( my biggest claim to "fame" ) was a sparring partner for several top pros & even a couple of World Champions. And, believe me, I took my lumps.
That's why I was in demand as a sparmate because I showed up in shape, put pressure on them & was more durable than what was likely good for me. But, thankfully, I have no cognitive issues as a result. Just a calcified neck & a mild case of sleep apnea that could have been caused by repeated brain stem trauma.
But, unlike the vast majority of those that I came up with in the gyms & have known & worked for/with over the years, I made it a point to cut out taking all headshots once I got into my early 30s.
I'd just seen too many fighters of every kind of level from the ammies to the local clubfighters to journeymen to champs continue to take unnecessary punishment in the gym even after their careers were long over just "getting some work in" or sparring "for fun" & man, the results are ugly.