52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Horse · Post by **Horse** » 22 Dec 2016, 19:31

Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1mMLV3T3TU

Watch and discuss.

Horse · Post by **Horse** » 22 Dec 2016, 19:31

Horse · Post by **Horse** » 22 Dec 2016, 19:31

Supplementary fight.

Howard Winstone vs Lennie Williams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlI2u9j4rwU

Counter-puncher · Post by **Counter-puncher** » 22 Dec 2016, 19:49

I like the symmetry of coming back to Winstone- Saldivar at the end of the year, horse.

I have really enjoyed this thread, I'm only sorry my spotty access to youtube hasn't allowed me to comment more on the fights I haven't seen before.

Davie and handsofstone have been particularly stalwart members of this thread, and its presence has been a positive for the forum. As you know horse there were some oiks in the threads infancy that neigh-sayed it (see what I did there?) and my invectve at them has been justified by this threads continuing positivity. Excellent idea thank you

I would like a world boxing 52fight challenge next year horse. I think that is this threads natural evolution.

Horse · Post by **Horse** » 22 Dec 2016, 20:35

Counter-puncher wrote:I like the symmetry of coming back to Winstone- Saldivar at the end of the year, horse.

I have really enjoyed this thread, I'm only sorry my spotty access to youtube hasn't allowed me to comment more on the fights I haven't seen before.

Davie and handsofstone have been particularly stalwart members of this thread, and its presence has been a positive for the forum. As you know horse there were some oiks in the threads infancy that neigh-sayed it (see what I did there?)

Quality pun.

Counter-puncher wrote:and my invectve at them has been justified by this threads continuing positivity. Excellent idea thank you

Counter-puncher wrote:I would like a world boxing 52fight challenge next year horse. I think that is this threads natural evolution.

That would be quite the undertaking, especially if I do another British & Irish 52 fight challenge as well.

Then it would be a 104 fight challenge. Including the supplementary fights, it could be a 312 fight challenge!

davie · Post by **davie** » 22 Dec 2016, 23:32

I'm not too fussed which direction it goes, whether we try to find another 52 (104 really) British fights or going the international route.

But I'll second Counter-punchers comments, this thread has been both enjoyable and educational. It needs to stay in what ever form you fancy Horse.

I fancied looking more deeply at proper old stuff but the quality is often poor, the best fights are often not available on film and I'm not sure how much interest people have in watching through grainy 1930s footage of Len Harvey vs Jock McIvoy or watching 1m24s clips from Pathe.

Personally, I'm spending as much time on the boxing history forum as I am on here these days, watching and scoring old fights, so I've no issue with you going the international route, you could comfortable do a year covering US fighters alone, let alone world wide.

But we still have a fair few in the bank from the UK between fighters we've never given an airing, to watching a second or third fight from greats we've already seen, I refer you to the first page of the 52 week challenge thread (Bizarrely, there's 52 suggestions there)

Buchanan vs Duran.
Alan Rudkin vs Fighting Harada
Alan Rudkin v Johnny Caldwell
Johnny Owen v Lupe Pintor
Alan Minter vs Vito Antuofermo 2
Tony Sibson vs Dennis Andries
Dennis Andries vs Jeff harding
John H Stracey vs Carlos Palomino
Colin Jones v Kirkland Laing 1 and 2
Barry McGuigan v Juan Laporte
Lloyd Honeyghan v Cliff Gilpin 1 and 2
Najib Daho v Carl Crook 1 and 2
Jack Kid Berg vs Tony Canzoneri and Kid Chocolate,
Tommy Farr vs Joe Louis, Max Baer, Loughran or Braddock
Jack Doyle vs. Jack Peterson,
Henry Cooper vs Cassius Clay or Muhamad Ali
Henry Cooper vs Joe Bugner
Frank Bruno vs Joe Bugner
Najib Daho vs Pat Cowdell 1 and 2 & Pat doherty 1&2
Pat Doherty vs John Doherty
Alan Rudkin vs Walter McGowan - the rematch.
Benny Lynch vs Jackie Brown II
Catley vs Woodhall
Nigel Benn Vs Henry Wharton
Steve Collins vs Sumbu Kalambay or Mike Mccallum
Lennox Lewis vs Evander Holyfield I
Lloyd Honeyghan vs Maurice Blocker
Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II
Alan Minter vs Vito Antuofermo I
Prince Naseem vs Wayne Mcculloch
Rocky Kelly vs Tony Brown -
Jamie Moore vs Matthew Macklin
Maurice Hope vs Wilfred Benitez/Carlos Herrera
Ernie Roderick vs Henry Armstrong
Floyd Patterson vs Brian London
Haye vs Maccaranelli
Terry downes vs Paul Pender or Willie Pastrano
Dave "boy" McAuley Vs Fidel Basa
Mark Prince v Dariusz Michalczewski
Bob Fitzsimmons vs James J Corbett
Gary Jacobs v Pernell Whitaker
Dave "boy" Green vs Carlos Palomino
Andy Holligan vs Julio Cesar Chaves, Shey Neary Or Tony Ekubia
Murray Sutherland vs Tommy Hearns/Michael Spinks 1+2/Chong Pal Park/James Kinchen
Kevin Lueshing vs Saunder 1+2/Tito Trinidad.
Carl Thompson vs Eubank 1 & 2, Rothmann, Sellers
Paul Weir vs Fernando Martinez
Bunny Johnson v James Scott
Wayne Elcock vs Howard Eastman
Shea Neary vs Andy Holligan
Shea Neary vs Mickey Ward
Colin McMillan vs Maurizio Stecca

davie · Post by **davie** » 22 Dec 2016, 23:35

PS good to see Winstone vs Saldivar again, I thoroughly enjoyed the first one

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Dec 2016, 06:24

which is the one Howard did best in?

Would he have been a great champion if Saldivar wasn't around- or Mexican great bring the best out of him, providing the highlight of his career?

And, don't want to stir things but - is this nostalgia for a lovely jab, one handed classical boxing, brave defeat to the very best?

handsofstone · Post by **handsofstone** » 23 Dec 2016, 07:36

I watched all 3 Saldivar/Winstone fight when we done their 1st fight in the challenge, I remember Howard putting up a much better effort in the rematch and making it closer than their 1st fight

I will watch the Williams fight later though

Tomasino · Post by **Tomasino** » 23 Dec 2016, 07:47

This is thread of the year IMO. Didn't think it would make it all the way but it has and some very fine choices and supplemental fights have been shown.

Well done

handsofstone · Post by **handsofstone** » 23 Dec 2016, 10:37

Williams was as game as they come but Winstone showed his class,he really was a textbook boxer,great footwork,punch variety and had a real class about his work,as soon as he started unloading they uppercuts on Williams you seen he was in trouble,credit to Lennie Williams though he never went down and did give Winstone something to think about,a real rugged southpaw

handsofstone · Post by **handsofstone** » 23 Dec 2016, 10:42

Autobarn wrote:which is the one Howard did best in?

Would he have been a great champion if Saldivar wasn't around- or Mexican great bring the best out of him, providing the highlight of his career?

And, don't want to stir things but - is this nostalgia for a lovely jab, one handed classical boxing, brave defeat to the very best?

Winstone performed best in the rematch, an all Welsh featherweight showdown between him and Selby would've been quality in droves

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Dec 2016, 11:09

Obviously his hand issue really affected his punch repertoire, being unable to close I believe his right hand.

I had actually assumed Winstone was in the IBHOF and was surprised not to see him listed in there.

Did he need more than a great jab and movement to be great?

Not trying to upset Winstone fans,just curious (and I'm a fan who likes aggression, power punching, variety, something lacking in another British great with outstanding peck and move skills, Ken Buchanan for instance)

davie · Post by **davie** » 23 Dec 2016, 17:49

Winstone v Saldivar

1. 10-9. Winstone, Good control with the jab, these opening tentative first rounds often go to the jabber as the fight is fought at his range.
2. 10-9. Winstone, bit more action in this and Winstone risking the right hand with some success, but on the odd occasion he missed, Saldivar made him pay
3. 10-9. Winstone, another really good round for Winstone with plenty of variety of shots
4. 9-10 Saldivar, He started to get going and won this one big, when he puts the foot down like this Winstone doesn't seem to have the power to deter him
5. 9-10 Saldivar, closer round, Winstone only really scoring with the jab though, had to give it to Saldivar for heavier shots and big flurries, not afraid to miss or get hit to get those big shots in
6. 10-9 Had Winstone winning it, rocked Saldivars head back with straight lefts and rights. But Saldivar almost did enough in the last minute for a share
7. 9-10 Saldivar. Great round, Winstone landing some good clean shots but Saldivar like a force of nature when he lets both hands go, some good work to the body and even having success with the jab towards the end
8. 10-9. Winstone, very clear Winstone round, snapping his head back with both hands again. Shame he hasn't heavier hands or he'd have floored him more than once
9. 9-10 Saldivar. He wins these rounds when he lets his hands go. I've agreed with Carpenter in every round other than a couple half rounds
10. 9-10 Saldivar, slow start, think Winstone showing signs of tireness, which played it's part in his defeat last time
11. 9-10 Saldivar, this fight is going the way of the last, Saldivar taking over here
12. 9-10 Saldivar. Better effort from Winstone here, landing good shots, but Saldivar now like a man possessed coming thorough everything and wearing him down. Hurt him on the ropes in the middle of the round
13. 9-10 Saldivar more of the same
14. 8-10. Could have been 10-7, Winstones out on his feet, dropeed and almost put through the ropes. A similar story to the first
15. 9-10 Saldivar. Winstone doing well to give some back. Not sure if it's his lack of punch or Saldivars chin but he cannot put a dent in him or slow his advance. I don't think I've seen a better fighter at coming on strong right to the 15th round, what an engine this little fella had

Noticed as early as the first round, that Winstone brings his left back very low after throwing the jab. For someone with such an excellent jab, it's odd that he would do that, leaves an obvious target for counters. Think he sometimes gets away with it because he throws it straight out with a reach advantage and takes a step back. When he throws it in isolation he gets away with it, he paid for it more when he stayed in range or got into exchanges

The rounds where Saldivar lets his hands go, Howard doesn't look like he can cope with him. Thankfully for him Saldivar couldn't sustain that every round. I'm perhaps being unfair to Winstone, maybe it was his good boxing that deterred him in some rounds but it looks very much like when Saldivar goes to work he takes the round and when he takes a round or 2 off, Winstone had the greater success at range

Gave Saldivar credit for his boxing at times in the last one but he is a tad cruder in this one, swinging away to body and head and being happy to miss and take the odd shot to get success. His success in the first was largely down to workrate and brute force but more so in this I felt, he's a bloody machine when he gets going and he just seems to get stronger and stronger. The 15 round distance suited him well

Carpenter too stick last time for his partisan commenting. I note in round 9, that I had agreed with his scoring in pretty much every round. Either Carpenter did a better job or I called it just as bad as he did

BroughtonRulesRefuge · Post by **BroughtonRulesRefuge** » 23 Dec 2016, 22:46

- A big shout for the horse's monosyllabic patootie who finally hitched up for a year's worth of Clydesdale duty for a masterpiece.

Been a stalker looking for a few fight gems, and Winstone/salvidar a cultural classic that ticked all the boxes. The welsh fans tops no matter who was on top and an example of a higher order mentality than today's miscreants.

Open air, chilly with a hard surface favoring Winstone that turned slippery, this was elemental boxing that salvidar overcame in a great fight. That 14 th rd was brutal and should have been stopped, yet Winstone recovered for a credible finish.

Them were the days of fighting, not posing like today in a dying sport. Looking forward to #52 .

davie · Post by **davie** » 24 Dec 2016, 02:08

Was anyone else of the opinion that the pattern of the fight was scarily like the first one.

Winstone jabbing and boxing well, winning early rounds. Saldivar taking over when he started letting his hands go, really forcing the fight when Winstone tired and seemed to have boundless energy right to the last bell.
Winstone doing well to see out the 14th round in both fights, and losing the last round despite a collosal effort
This is my report from the last one (minus rounds 2, 4 & 7)

1. 10-9 Winstone - nice use of the jab to control the opening round
3. 10-9 Winstone - more good jabbing and in & out footwork to make Saldivar miss. Saldivar has a couple of succesful flurries in the middle of the round
5. 10-9 Saldivar - Some wild but effective punching from Saldivar, looks a dangerous fighter now
6. 10-9 Salvidar - Working well with combinations, going from head to body to make openings and not minding missing one or two to land some punches.
8. 10-9 Winstone - great round of boxing, had a bit of everything, good stuff from both men, Winstone controlled it better, great evasive work at times
9. 10-9 Salvidar - A round of 2 halves, Winstone timed a couple of nice right hands early but Saldivar just too busy in the second half. Another good round
10. 10-9 Salvidar - Great round for Salvidar, never gave Winstone a seconds peace and countered his jab excellently (as Counter-puncher mentioned)
11. 10-9 Saldivar - Winstone rallied a little in the middle, but great work throughout by saldivar, timing Winstones jab & landing the left regularly/heavily
12. 10-9 Saldivar - Becoming a little one sided. Unless Saldivar tires I can't see Winstone getting back into this
13. 10-9 Saldivar - Really good round, closer than the last and both men clearly tiring.
14. 10-8 Saldivar - A 10-8 round for me, Winstone did well to stay on his feet and Saldivar just keeps on coming, Not so technical from the Mexican now.
15. 10-9 Saldivar - Closer round, last round kitchen sink stuff. Winstone threw everything he had left and Saldivar threw more still. Not sure if it was Winstones heart or Saldivars tired arms, but not sure how Winstone got through those last few rounds

Horse · Post by **Horse** » 26 Dec 2016, 21:31

Winstone - Saldivar

1. 10 - 9
2. 10 - 9
3. 10 - 10
4. 9 - 10
5. 10 - 9
6. 10 - 9
7. 9 - 10
8. 10 - 9
9. 9 - 10 - Only 1:42 of round shown.
10. 10 - 9
11. 9 - 10
12. 9 - 10
13. 9 - 10
14. 7 - 10
15. 9 - 10

144-140 Saldivar

The 9th round was cut short, but all of the other rounds seemed like the normal length.

Winstone was doing very well until the last third of the fight, where Saldivar started to dominate and more than one round could have been given a 10-8 due to how clearly he was winning those rounds.

Much more competitive than the first fight, but in the end Saldivar was still the clear winner.

Counter-puncher · Post by **Counter-puncher** » 17 Jan 2017, 10:42

Only just getting round to watching this

Davie I think you're right that the pattern of the fight is very similar to the first one, but I think there were some tactical adjustments winstone made that made it tactically different, a little. I think winstone seemed to hold his ground and try to counter more rather than giving ground with his feet when on the defensive, and I don't think he moved as much when trying to lead with the jab either.

I also think saldivar was a bit more ragged than the first fight and less measured, missing more IMO.

Counter-puncher · Post by **Counter-puncher** » 17 Jan 2017, 10:44

also i think winstone used his right hand better, and worked the body better, fascinating how two such quality operators can continually ask questions of each other

52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II

Re: 52 fight challenge: Week 51 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar II