Prime Mike Tyson VS Prime Rocky Marciano

[Kalan]

Rocky would be gone in the 1st round... Who are you trying to kid???

Michael Spinks weighed 212 for Tyson didn't he??? ... Spinks looked like Little Bo Peep in there he looked so weak compared to Tyson... You take MIke Tyson's arm and put it up againt Marciano's arm and that will give you an idea of how that fight would go...

Marciano was 3 weight divisions lighter and one of the slowest Heavyweight Champs in History... Besides his power, Tyson was faster than anyone from that era.

[Crease]

Rocky would be gone in the 1st round... Who are you trying to kid???

Tyson was a bully, he relied on his intimidation to back his opponents up.
In Marciano he would find an opponent not intimidated by him & had a more aggressive style than what Holyfield or Lewis ever had.

Both men could dish out the pain no problem. But Marciano could take it round after round. I don't believe that Mike shown us that he could

When he was hurt he backed off (as he did with Lewis)
When he was frustrated he bites ears...

Anyway I look at this, it's a Marciano victory.

[Crease]

Tyson was faster than anyone from that era.

Tyson wasn't quicker than Ezzard Charles or Joey Maxim.

[Klee Gluckman]

I think Tyson devastates him. Tyson if he's 21 and in his prime to athletic. Marciano is too small. At 185lbs Marciano would get caught. Tyson is not one the old men Maciano fought.

[Kalan]

Tyson was faster than anyone from that era.

Tyson wasn't quicker than Ezzard Charles or Joey Maxim.

Yes he was.. are you kidding again?

Joey Maxim was one of the slowest and weakest hitters who ever won a world title.. A career KO ratio of 19%.. Maxim was 0-5 against Charles... Charles was great as a Light Heavyweight---and he was still fast as slick for his first 2 fights with Walcott.. After that you never saw the real Charles again due to the early inroads of ALS, the creeping nerve disease that eventually took his life.. The year before he fought Marciano Charles lost to Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson and also lost to the super slow Heavyweight Nino Valdes.. I don't see him losing to them at his best. He was far from the Light Heavyweight form that he showed in beating a prime Archie Moore 3 times.

[davie]

I just got a 10 disk boxset of ESPN documentaries for chrimbo. I just watched a 2+hr Rocky Marciano piece, called undefeated, which shows the footage or highlights or all his big bouts.
For me there is nothing there that suggests he could live with a prime Tyson.

The point that his style would wear Tyson down is a fair one.....if he could physically match him and last beyond the second round, which he most certainly could not.

In the modern day, Rocky would be boiling down to 175 and rehydrating back to his usual 184 to face the likes of Kovalev, Ward and Stevenson. These are facts we simply can't gloss over. As Kalan states, just look at his arms, I've got bigger biceps than the man.
He was heavy handed for his day, no doubt about it but there is no possible physical way that his punch power was comparable to Tyson.
He hit hard but he wailed away at guys,. throwing punches from the soles of his feet at guys relentlessly for 15 rounds sometimes. Tysons power destroyed guys quick, it's totally different. You could make a p4p type comparison, but stand the 2 men side by side and let them start swinging and you'd be in no doubt who had proper power

As it happen, next out of the boxset is 2 x 2.5 hour Tyson disks, I'll report back if I find anything that makes me doubt the above....

[Tomasino]

I just got a 10 disk boxset of ESPN documentaries for chrimbo. I just watched a 2+hr Rocky Marciano piece, called undefeated, which shows the footage or highlights or all his big bouts.
For me there is nothing there that suggests he could live with a prime Tyson.

The point that his style would wear Tyson down is a fair one.....if he could physically match him and last beyond the second round, which he most certainly could not.

In the modern day, Rocky would be boiling down to 175 and rehydrating back to his usual 184 to face the likes of Kovalev, Ward and Stevenson. These are facts we simply can't gloss over. As Kalan states, just look at his arms, I've got bigger biceps than the man.
He was heavy handed for his day, no doubt about it but there is no possible physical way that his punch power was comparable to Tyson.
He hit hard but he wailed away at guys,. throwing punches from the soles of his feet at guys relentlessly for 15 rounds sometimes. Tysons power destroyed guys quick, it's totally different. You could make a p4p type comparison, but stand the 2 men side by side and let them start swinging and you'd be in no doubt who had proper power

As it happen, next out of the boxset is 2 x 2.5 hour Tyson disks, I'll report back if I find anything that makes me doubt the above....

Did you see the Marciano fight where he lost heart and gave up? Or the one where he got put down and stayed down? What about that one where he couldn't take the punishment and fouled out early?

[Crease]

I think Tyson devastates him. Tyson if he's 21 and in his prime to athletic. Marciano is too small. At 185lbs Marciano would get caught.

Frame isn't everything. If it was we would be talking about Nicolas Values as the greatest of all time.

Tyson is not one the old men Maciano fought.

Old men like Jersey Joe Walcott? Because he didn't get better with age, did he? He was nothing like Bernard Hopkins.

Or maybe you're referring to Archie Moore - who still in the Heavyweight rankings when he fought Ali nearly a decade later.

[Crease]

He hit hard but he wailed away at guys,. throwing punches from the soles of his feet at guys relentlessly for 15 rounds sometimes. Tysons power destroyed guys quick, it's totally different. You could make a p4p type comparison, but stand the 2 men side by side and let them start swinging and you'd be in no doubt who had proper power

I think you need to cast your eyes over Marciano's record & notice how many early KO's that he's credited with.

[davie]

I just got a 10 disk boxset of ESPN documentaries for chrimbo. I just watched a 2+hr Rocky Marciano piece, called undefeated, which shows the footage or highlights or all his big bouts.
For me there is nothing there that suggests he could live with a prime Tyson.

The point that his style would wear Tyson down is a fair one.....if he could physically match him and last beyond the second round, which he most certainly could not.

In the modern day, Rocky would be boiling down to 175 and rehydrating back to his usual 184 to face the likes of Kovalev, Ward and Stevenson. These are facts we simply can't gloss over. As Kalan states, just look at his arms, I've got bigger biceps than the man.
He was heavy handed for his day, no doubt about it but there is no possible physical way that his punch power was comparable to Tyson.
He hit hard but he wailed away at guys,. throwing punches from the soles of his feet at guys relentlessly for 15 rounds sometimes. Tysons power destroyed guys quick, it's totally different. You could make a p4p type comparison, but stand the 2 men side by side and let them start swinging and you'd be in no doubt who had proper power

As it happen, next out of the boxset is 2 x 2.5 hour Tyson disks, I'll report back if I find anything that makes me doubt the above....

Did you see the Marciano fight where he lost heart and gave up? Or the one where he got put down and stayed down? What about that one where he couldn't take the punishment and fouled out early?

I might have done had he fought Tyson

[davie]

We tend to compare guys on 3 basis on here, ATG, P4P or fantasy match up

The ATG conversation would be interesting, where you rank on achievement and resume. You can only judge them in the era they lived in and take into account the advantages or challenges of the time
Rocky probably wins there. Both briefly dominant with a short reign at the top, both beat washed up legends and B-level guys in relatively weak eras, both got plenty of KO's and were physically imposing. The differences. One left the sport early, the other went badly down hill early. I'd also take into account the relative size of their respective opponents.

The P4P conversation is laced with the usual difficulties. It's generally reserved for 2 guys from the same era from different weight classes. You'd argue if they were the same weight and height ********* would be the outcome. Here you have 2 guys technically from different weight classes. But they weren't really and they were the same height. If Rocky weighed 220lbs he wouldn't have the legendary stamina and if Tyson weighed 184lbs he wouldn't have the vicious power. I don't think it's a fair comparison
If they were both around 200, I might actually lean towards the Rock, as stylistically, he's a really hard nights work if Tyson couldn't put him away. Marciano was as tough as they come but I just think it's a slightly unrealistic comparison

But we are talking the, "if we had a time machine and could plant Rocky in 1987" type fantasy match up chat here, aren't we?
184lb Rocky, vs 220lb Tyson? I just don't see how Rocky lives with that, I really don't. I don't think you could stand up to that, at that weight against that raw strength and power.
If we go back to the p4p idea:
I don't think a 5'10 ½" 184lb SRR would beat a young prime 220lb Tyson
I don't think a 5'10 ½" 184lb JCC would withstand a barage from young prime 220lb Tyson
I don't think a 5'10 ½" 184lb Julian Jackson would stop a young prime 220lb Tyson
I don't think a 5'10 ½" 184lb Pep or Floyd would outbox a young prime 220lb Tyson
(NB note the word "would". Each of these scenarios is not impossible, but highly unlikely IMO)

It's not boxing ability or mentality or any other boxing attribute we often discuss, I cannot see how a light heavyweight could overcome the 35lb weight difference against a fact vicious puncher of Tysons ilk.
I think the height/weight/reach argument is overused by many and don't pay it much heed often on here, but there are times when some people just can't accept some obstacles are a bit too big to overcome

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

A Rocky Marciano who is 5ft 10ins and 13 st 4lbs wouldn't last two rounds with Tyson but if we just imagine he trained in the present day and was on a weights regime, proper diet and grew up with good food - he would probably be around six foot and 220lbs?

That would be a different proposition, I certainly take on board Crease's scenario about Holyfield - the difference between him and Marciano is that Marciano cut easy, I have to say this though, it's certainly not a gimmee for Tyson if Marciano had been a bigger person than what he was in the fifties. My money is still on Tyson to KO him though, it would be a cracking fight.

[Tomasino]

I just got a 10 disk boxset of ESPN documentaries for chrimbo. I just watched a 2+hr Rocky Marciano piece, called undefeated, which shows the footage or highlights or all his big bouts.
For me there is nothing there that suggests he could live with a prime Tyson.

The point that his style would wear Tyson down is a fair one.....if he could physically match him and last beyond the second round, which he most certainly could not.

In the modern day, Rocky would be boiling down to 175 and rehydrating back to his usual 184 to face the likes of Kovalev, Ward and Stevenson. These are facts we simply can't gloss over. As Kalan states, just look at his arms, I've got bigger biceps than the man.
He was heavy handed for his day, no doubt about it but there is no possible physical way that his punch power was comparable to Tyson.
He hit hard but he wailed away at guys,. throwing punches from the soles of his feet at guys relentlessly for 15 rounds sometimes. Tysons power destroyed guys quick, it's totally different. You could make a p4p type comparison, but stand the 2 men side by side and let them start swinging and you'd be in no doubt who had proper power

As it happen, next out of the boxset is 2 x 2.5 hour Tyson disks, I'll report back if I find anything that makes me doubt the above....

Did you see the Marciano fight where he lost heart and gave up? Or the one where he got put down and stayed down? What about that one where he couldn't take the punishment and fouled out early?

I might have done had he fought Tyson

The guy who couldn't beat ex 190lb champ Evander Holyfield?

[davie]

Did you see the Marciano fight where he lost heart and gave up? Or the one where he got put down and stayed down? What about that one where he couldn't take the punishment and fouled out early?

I might have done had he fought Tyson

The guy who couldn't beat ex 190lb champ Evander Holyfield?

There's where you're argument falls apart

[Tomasino]

I might have done had he fought Tyson

The guy who couldn't beat ex 190lb champ Evander Holyfield?

There's where you're argument falls apart

Which argument?

[davie]

The guy who couldn't beat ex 190lb champ Evander Holyfield?

There's where you're argument falls apart

Which argument?

I put the "ex" in bold, it's not very clear

The point I was making was that Holyfield was a 215/218lb full blown 6'2 heavyweight by the time they fought

[Tomasino]

There's where you're argument falls apart

Which argument?

I put the "ex" in bold, it's not very clear

The point I was making was that Holyfield was a 215/218lb full blown 6'2 heavyweight by the time they fought

Isn't he a blown up cruiserweight rather than full blown heavyweight? Tyson got beat by the best guys he fought and never won a rematch. Rocky was 185 natural, trained and ripped, not an ounce of fat or excess muscle. He could have used the same methods as Evander to blow up but I don't think he'd need to really. I'd have the 200lb Holyfield beating Mike at his best anyway. Tyson blatantly ducked him first time around. He might have ducked the Rock too.

[Crease]

He might have ducked the Rock too.

Now that you mention it Mr Tomasino, there are a number of hard punchers Tyson never fought during his time.

Certainly there are no Old George Foreman, Ray Mercer or David Tua on his record and he was knocking around during the 90s.

[Tomasino]

He might have ducked the Rock too.

Now that you mention it Mr Tomasino, there are a number of hard punchers Tyson never fought during his time.

Certainly there are no Old George Foreman, Ray Mercer or David Tua on his record and he was knocking around during the 90s.

Who is the hardest puncher Mike beat? Ruddock?

The only argument I've heard against Rocky so far is that he was too light...

[Kalan]

Old George Foreman was slow George Foreman... Tyson quickly defeated Alex Stewart with a 1st round KO. Slow old George took horrendous punishment from Stewart who he couldn't knock out... Foreman got badly beaten up by a swinger who couldn't lay an effective glove on Tyson... Lou Saverese also went the distance with foreman and got stopped by the 1st punch Tyson threw.

Foreman avoided Ray Mercer, David Tua, Oliver McCall, Riddick Bowe, and Lennox Lewis... Tyson may have avoided them as well... That doesn't say anything about how Marciano could have stayed with the 21-year-old Tyson who fought Michael Spinks... You know Spinks was an undefeated Heavyweight Champion who won more consecutive World Title Fights than Rocky ever did---against better opposition such as Larry Holmes... But Spinks was a blown up 212-pound Light Heavyweight who didn't have a chance versus Tyson.. He lasted 90 seconds.. Rocky wouldn't have lasted that long with Iron Mike.

What happened to Floyd Patterson when he fought Sonny Liston at 190??? It's your frame size Rufus.. It's not the amount of muscle you put on by lifting weights.

[davie]

He might have ducked the Rock too.

Now that you mention it Mr Tomasino, there are a number of hard punchers Tyson never fought during his time.

Certainly there are no Old George Foreman, Ray Mercer or David Tua on his record and he was knocking around during the 90s.

Who is the hardest puncher Mike beat? Ruddock?

The only argument I've heard against Rocky so far is that he was too light...

Vasyl Lomachenko is 30lbs lighter than Daniel Jacobs
Vasyl Lomachenko is head and shoulders above Jacobs technically.
Who wins? Is there a point where the differential in weight overcomes any technical attributes?

The arguments in Rocky's favour are all physical attributes as well, stamina, chin, workrate. He'd have worn him down, outworked him

Compare them technically/tactically, strip away the who's bigger, who's stronger argument.

similarities:
Both were aggressive come forward fighters, both relied on hooks and largely neglected the jab, neither were particularly skilled defensive fighters (although both were possibly under rated by most) they both had good upper body movement and rolled under punches well.

Tysons technical advantages
Faster, shorter sharper punches. Marciano threw rhythmic, predictable, telegraphed hooks. Tyson threw short stinging accurate shots.
Watching JJW and Moore, there were several points in the fights they were on the ropes, able to roll under 5 - 10 consecutive hayemakers, he was so easy to read. Tysons rolling defense would have had similar success but his handspeed and counter punching would have backed Marciano up.


Rocky's technical advantages???
I'll leave that to you guys

[Tomasino]

Now that you mention it Mr Tomasino, there are a number of hard punchers Tyson never fought during his time.

Certainly there are no Old George Foreman, Ray Mercer or David Tua on his record and he was knocking around during the 90s.

Who is the hardest puncher Mike beat? Ruddock?

The only argument I've heard against Rocky so far is that he was too light...

Vasyl Lomachenko is 30lbs lighter than Daniel Jacobs
Vasyl Lomachenko is head and shoulders above Jacobs technically.
Who wins? Is there a point where the differential in weight overcomes any technical attributes?

The arguments in Rocky's favour are all physical attributes as well, stamina, chin, workrate. He'd have worn him down, outworked him

Compare them technically/tactically, strip away the who's bigger, who's stronger argument.

similarities:
Both were aggressive come forward fighters, both relied on hooks and largely neglected the jab, neither were particularly skilled defensive fighters (although both were possibly under rated by most) they both had good upper body movement and rolled under punches well.

Tysons technical advantages
Faster, shorter sharper punches. Marciano threw rhythmic, predictable, telegraphed hooks. Tyson threw short stinging accurate shots.
Watching JJW and Moore, there were several points in the fights they were on the ropes, able to roll under 5 - 10 consecutive hayemakers, he was so easy to read. Tysons rolling defense would have had similar success but his handspeed and counter punching would have backed Marciano up.


Rocky's technical advantages???
I'll leave that to you guys

Rocky's advantages lie in the intangibles that often separate the good from the great in boxing. Chin, toughness, heart and will to win. Rocky pishes from a great height onto Mike in those areas. I'd say rocky was a harder hitter too.

I can't imagine Rocky losing heart and fouling out of a fight to avoid a beating, can you?

Can you picture Mike with his nose split open to the bone, coming out for more rounds and actually winning a fight he was losing?

[davie]

Rocky's advantages lie in the intangibles that often separate the good from the great in boxing. Chin, toughness, heart and will to win. Rocky pishes from a great height onto Mike in those areas. I'd say rocky was a harder hitter too.

I can't imagine Rocky losing heart and fouling out of a fight to avoid a beating, can you?

Can you picture Mike with his nose split open to the bone, coming out for more rounds and actually winning a fight he was losing?

I can't use the obvious physical difference between the 2 men but you can use "intangibles"?

I can't imagine Rocky losing heart and fouling out of a fight to avoid a beating either. But then I can't see Rocky having anything that would make Tyson lose heart and foul his way out of a fight to avoid a beating, as I don't think Rocky lasts long enough to put the hurt on him.
I also never seen Rocky hit with the punishment he would likely see in the first 6 rounds against a fit prime Tyson, he never faced a fighter with those attributes, at that weight. Then maybe he does quit, who know. It's highly unlikely, but again, I don't see it being an issue, because I think there's a good chance he's sparked out before he has to worry about it.
Rocky was very hitable, Tyson would have hit him, regularly, early on and I just cannot see a 184lb man stand up to that or have the tools to back him up.

Rocky wasn't a harder hitter. He just wasn't, this shouldn't require explanation, the simple laws of physics tell you otherwise.
Tyson was about as heavy handed as it's possible to be at his weight. There just simply is no way I'd believe Rocky hits harder. He hit hard the same way Sergey Kovalev hits hard (In fact Stevenson would be a more accurate comparison, given the more similar build and technique)

In real terms of punch power Joshua>Kovalev>Golovkin>Inoue. While you could argue that in p4p terms, the opposite is true for some of those guys.
Why? Bigger guys hit harder (please don't use the futile comparison of a light hitting big man vs heavy punching little man)

But again, lets say for argument sakes, that Tysons physical advantage in power, strength, weight, speed are negated by Marcianos Chin, heart, toughness, workrate, stamina and will to win. Look at the 2 guys technically. Even the biggest Marciano fan would say Marciano can't box, Tyson was clearly the more skillful, accurate, mobile fighter. Look at the way they throw punches.

What are the technical attributes that Rocky holds over Tyson???

[Tomasino]

Rocky's advantages lie in the intangibles that often separate the good from the great in boxing. Chin, toughness, heart and will to win. Rocky pishes from a great height onto Mike in those areas. I'd say rocky was a harder hitter too.

I can't imagine Rocky losing heart and fouling out of a fight to avoid a beating, can you?

Can you picture Mike with his nose split open to the bone, coming out for more rounds and actually winning a fight he was losing?

I can't use the obvious physical difference between the 2 men but you can use "intangibles"?

I can't imagine Rocky losing heart and fouling out of a fight to avoid a beating either. But then I can't see Rocky having anything that would make Tyson lose heart and foul his way out of a fight to avoid a beating, as I don't think Rocky lasts long enough to put the hurt on him.
I also never seen Rocky hit with the punishment he would likely see in the first 6 rounds against a fit prime Tyson, he never faced a fighter with those attributes, at that weight. Then maybe he does quit, who know. It's highly unlikely, but again, I don't see it being an issue, because I think there's a good chance he's sparked out before he has to worry about it.
Rocky was very hitable, Tyson would have hit him, regularly, early on and I just cannot see a 184lb man stand up to that or have the tools to back him up.

Rocky wasn't a harder hitter. He just wasn't, this shouldn't require explanation, the simple laws of physics tell you otherwise.
Tyson was about as heavy handed as it's possible to be at his weight. There just simply is no way I'd believe Rocky hits harder. He hit hard the same way Sergey Kovalev hits hard (In fact Stevenson would be a more accurate comparison, given the more similar build and technique)

In real terms of punch power Joshua>Kovalev>Golovkin>Inoue. While you could argue that in p4p terms, the opposite is true for some of those guys.
Why? Bigger guys hit harder (please don't use the futile comparison of a light hitting big man vs heavy punching little man)

But again, lets say for argument sakes, that Tysons physical advantage in power, strength, weight, speed are negated by Marcianos Chin, heart, toughness, workrate, stamina and will to win. Look at the 2 guys technically. Even the biggest Marciano fan would say Marciano can't box, Tyson was clearly the more skillful, accurate, mobile fighter. Look at the way they throw punches.

What are the technical attributes that Rocky holds over Tyson???

Where to begin Davie...

Firstly in my personal experience bigger doesn't hit harder. The hardest hitter that I have seen is a middleweight former pro. It's not debatable, anyone who has sparred him or held the pads agrees. The effect of his punches is visible. At 8.5 stone I knocked out a 17 stone contender for the Scottish heavyweight title. That's just in my personal experience.

Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott all agreed Rocky hit the hardest. That's some accolade. Conversely I've rarely heard fighters give that title to Mike...all of this 'simple physics' pish is just misguided. I don't believe your a physicist and I don't believe the numbers ever tell the whole story of human hitting power.

To say Rocky couldn't box is simply insane Davie. He can and did box, to 49 victories. He wasn't a Roy Jones or a Willie Pep but he could box. He was underrated in defence and an absolute beast on offence.

Whilst writing this and looking at what you've wrote again, I'm actually throwing in the towel on this one. You do not see what I see when looking at either fighter so shall agree to disagree

[davie]

At 8.5 stone I knocked out a 17 stone contender for the Scottish heavyweight title.

I'll stop arguing with you then