Post Your Scorecards

[Seamus]

I won't even bother posting my card, but I recently scored Ernesto Marcel vs Antonio Gomez I and it boggles the mind that one of the judges actually called this fight a draw. I gave Gomez the 5th, and another round was even due to a point deduction. I gave Marcel a pair of 10-8 rds, despite there being no knockdowns in the fight, due to beatings he gave Gomez. At the end I had it 148-134 and you can't get much wider than that.

[scartissue]

Sonny Liston vs Eddie Machen

R1.10-9 SL
R2.10-9 SL
R3.10-9 SL
R4.10-9 SL
R5.10-9 SL
R6.9-9 Even 1pt from SL for a low blow
R7.10-9 SL
R8.10-9 SL
R9.10-9 SL
R10.10-9 SL
R11.9-8 EM 2 pts taken from SL for a low blow
R12.10-10 Even

Sonny Liston 117-109

Seamus, I just watched Liston-Machen and my card is almost identical to yours. The only difference is I gave the last round to Liston for a score of 117-108. Machen fought a harrying type of fight that seemed meant to strictly offset the charging Liston rather than beat him. Some of Machen's brief flurries were sharp, but then he would go back in survival mode and I just couldn't give him anything solid, whereas Liston stayed steady pounding whatever he could put his mitts on. Not exciting but still had me glued to the seat watching this historic bout.

[Seamus]

Jiro Watanabe vs Payao Poontarat I

R1.10-10
R2.10-9 PP
R3.10-9 JW
R4.10-9 PP
R5.10-9 JW
R6.10-9 JW
R7.10-10
R8.10-9 JW
R9.10-9 JW
R10.10-9 JW
R11.10-9 JW
R12.10-9 JW

Jiro Watanabe 118-112

Not a particularly good fight for this weight class as both guys went long periods waiting to counter the other. Also as a big fan of Japanese boxing I can say that Watanabe, despite his record, isn't one of my favorites to watch.

Jiro Watanabe vs Payao Poontarat II

R1.10-9 PP
R2.10-9 PP
R3.10-9 PP
R4.10-9 PP
R5.10-8 JW (Poontarat down from a short right hook to the jaw)
R6.10-10
R7.9-9 (1 pt taken from Poontarat for a low blow)
R8.10-9 PP
R9.10-9 JW
R10.10-9 PP

Poontarat goes down from a 4 punch combination to the head, beats the count but the fight his stopped after he takes a relatively light shot to the head. Watanabe TKO 11. 96-93 Poontarat at the time.

This was a better fight with Poontarat making a more agressive start, but it clearly appeared to be a bad stoppage.

[Counter-puncher]

McCallum - Toney (1)

10-9
9-10
10-9
9-10
10-9
10-9
10-9
9-10
9-10
9-10
10-9
9-10

114-114

I haven't seen this for a few years, but IIRC I scored it a draw back then too. Wonderful contrast between the veteran skills of McCallum and the power and youth of Toney. Toney has said in interview that he learned to box in this fight and you can see how McCallums experienc gets him through a fight the younger man showed, in patches, he could have taken.

As I often end up saying, I don't think scores of 115-113 either way would particularly bother me but I think was a'genuine' draw really if that makes sense.

[elmersalsa]

McCallum - Toney (1)

10-9
9-10
10-9
9-10
10-9
10-9
10-9
9-10
9-10
9-10
10-9
9-10

114-114

I haven't seen this for a few years, but IIRC I scored it a draw back then too. Wonderful contrast between the veteran skills of McCallum and the power and youth of Toney. Toney has said in interview that he learned to box in this fight and you can see how McCallums experienc gets him through a fight the younger man showed, in patches, he could have taken.

As I often end up saying, I don't think scores of 115-113 either way would particularly bother me but I think was a'genuine' draw really if that makes sense.

This one fight is one of the most technically gifted fights that I have ever seen in my lifetime. Both gave a boxing clinic.

[Counter-puncher]

McCallum - Toney (1)

10-9
9-10
10-9
9-10
10-9
10-9
10-9
9-10
9-10
9-10
10-9
9-10

114-114

I haven't seen this for a few years, but IIRC I scored it a draw back then too. Wonderful contrast between the veteran skills of McCallum and the power and youth of Toney. Toney has said in interview that he learned to box in this fight and you can see how McCallums experienc gets him through a fight the younger man showed, in patches, he could have taken.

As I often end up saying, I don't think scores of 115-113 either way would particularly bother me but I think was a'genuine' draw really if that makes sense.

This one fight is one of the most technically gifted fights that I have ever seen in my lifetime. Both gave a boxing clinic.

yeah, I think Toney's ability to slip and roll with shots surprised McCallum a bit, he wasn't able to land many clean hard shots to the head so he had to go to a sort of cautious volume-boxing just chipping away with point-scorers. Toney's counterpunching meant he landed harder heavier shots but was outworked and out-slicked for considerable periods.

[scartissue]

[quote="Seamus"]Jiro Watanabe vs Payao Poontarat I

R1.10-10
R2.10-9 PP
R3.10-9 JW
R4.10-9 PP
R5.10-9 JW
R6.10-9 JW
R7.10-10
R8.10-9 JW
R9.10-9 JW
R10.10-9 JW
R11.10-9 JW
R12.10-9 JW

Jiro Watanabe 118-112

Not a particularly good fight for this weight class as both guys went long periods waiting to counter the other. Also as a big fan of Japanese boxing I can say that Watanabe, despite his record, isn't one of my favorites to watch.


Seamus, I always wanted to see the Watanabe-Poonatarat fights. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I watched the first one today and here's my card.

Round 1: 10-10 Even
Round 2: 10-9 PP
Round 3: 10-9 JW
Round 4: 10-9 PP
Round 5: 10-9 PP
Round 6: 10-9 PP
Round 7: 10-10 Even
Round 8: 10-9 JW
Round 9: 10-9 JW
Round 10: 10-10 Even
Round 11: 10-9 JW
Round 12: 10-9 JW

Total: 116-115 Watanabe

I had it a bit closer than you - we only differed really on the 5th and 6th - but a whole lot of these rounds were tissue paper thin between the two combatants. I'm really surprised we didn't differ on more. PP was the heavier hitter and Watanabe was a sharper boxer, but he would go into a lull at times. I'll have to check out the rematch.

[Seamus]

Scartissue, two much better fights are recently posted were Khaosai Galaxy's final bout vs Armando Castro and Jung Koo Chang's defence against Isidro Perez. I'd like to hear from some other panelists if my scores were way off in there opinion.

[scartissue]

Guys, I know a good few of you enjoy Asian fighters, well I've got a real gem for you. Here is Lupe Pintor defending against Eijiro Murata of Japan. Here we go.

Round 1: 10-9 Murata
Round 2: 10-10 Even
Round 3: 10-9 Pintor
Round 4: 10-9 Murata
Round 5: 10-9 Pintor
Round 6: 10-9 Murata
Round 7: 10-10 Even
Round 8: 10-9 Pintor
Round 9: 10-9 Murata
Round 10: 10-10 Even
Round 11: 10-9 Pintor
Round 12: 10-10 Even
Round 13: 10-9 Pintor
Round 14: 10-9 Pintor
Round 15: 10-9 Murata

Total: 145-144 Pintor

Guys, what a fight! I recall seeing a clip back in the day of Murata against Chandler and I though he was just a big slapping type puncher, but seeing him in this fight in its entirety I have changed my tune. More of a clubbing puncher, but what heart. I felt like an Asian judge with all my even rounds, but you'll see what I'm talking about when you see this. An ebb and flow, a give and take that you won't believe. I didn't believe Pintor was in control until the 14th round, but then Murata actually came back to win the 15th on my card. I won't be surprised if anyone has differing rounds to me because they were all so close, but enjoyable. A really good fight and I have no problem with the draw decision.

[Counter-puncher]

Sounds good I'll check it out thanks

[scartissue]

Here are a couple of fights - both with abbreviated endings. But the scores are interesting up until the end.

Danny Lopez v Ruben Olivares - California scoring 1 point for a round, 2 points with a knockdown and no pints for an even round.

Round 1: Lopez (Lopez down once and Olivares down twice - with one cancelling the other I had Lopez winning this round 2-0)
Round 2: Lopez (Lopez scores another knockdown)
Round 3: Olivares
Round 4: Olivares
Round 5: Olivares
Round 6: Lopez
Round 7: Lopez stops Olivares

Total through 6 completed rounds: 5-3 Lopez

Although noted for the left hook it was amazing the ease Olivares had tagging Lopez with the right hand. amazing that he stood up to them before lowering the boom.

Alexis Arguello v Bobby Chacon

10 point must system in effect

Round 1: 10-9 Chacon
Round 2: 10-9 Arguello
Round 3: 10-9 Chacon
Round 4: 10-9 Chacon
Round 5: 10-9 Chacon
Round 6: 10-9 Arguello
Round 7: 10-8 Arguello
TKO - fight stopped between rounds due to a badly cut eye sustained by Chacon

Total through 7 completed rounds: 66-66 Even

Although Chacon was never the force he was as a featherweight, he really gave it an admirable go of it here. Fighting and in and out type of fight he was really catching Arguello with those looping shots. Don't know how long he could have continued that way - that maneuver really tends to gas a fighter, but a good go anyway.

[Counter-puncher]

Edgar Sosa - Brian Viloria

9-10
10-9
10-9
9-10
10-9
9-10
10-9 (*)
I0-9
10-9
10-9
9-10
10-9

116-112 Sosa (*i noticed when adding up that I messed up marking the 7th as 10-10 which I definitely scored no even rounds here, I've given it Sosa but it could be the other way so either 116-112 or 115-113 but still clear for Sosa IMO)

Nice performance from Sosa, he outboxes vilora largely over the first 8 and then puts it on him in the last 4,
Sosa shows a really good jab and ring generalship, then later a great engine, desire and really sharp punch variety and combinations often looking a little Juan Manuel Marquez-esque Viloria shows his usual flaws of waiting too much, relying too much on single power shots, and having a poor engine.

[scartissue]

I just watched a very abbreviated contest between Antonio Cervantes and Carlos Gimenez (the rematch). Here is how I saw it after 5 completed rounds. It's not much in length to test your scoring skills, but it is worth watching.

Round 1: Cervantes
Round 2: Gimenez
Round 3: Cervantes
Round 4: Cervantes
Round 5: Gimenez

Fight stopped between the 5th and 6th round due to a cut Gimenez. What ensues is worth watching. Gimenez' manager (Tito Lectoure I think) physically accosts referee Marty Denkin. It is difficult to tell who stopped the fight (Denkin or the doctor) and if Lectoure is claiming there wasn't much of a cut or is he complaining about the head-butts. They feel hard-done by and to tell you the truth, they have a good argument. Gimenez is one tough dude and really good on the inside. Cervantes' punches were very sharp and crisp but he was being nullified a bit by Gimenez' infighting. And to be honest, I'm a big Cervantes fan but his head was coming in like a torpedo and despite Gimenez complaining to Denkin, all Denkin appeared to do was tap both of their heads as if to say 'be careful'. Would have liked to have seen this fight progress.

[Counter-puncher]

I really recommend this one,

Khaokor Galaxy - Wilfredo Vasquez

9-10
10-9
10-9
10-9
8-10
10-9
10-9
10-9
9-10
9-10
10-10
10-9

115-114 in favour of Galaxy in a great battle hat left both men very tired at the end, Vasquez shows an iron jaw and will and comes through some brutal body punching to mount a strong comeback, twice, when it looked like he was on the verge of being overrun. He does a great job of landing the left hook against the southpaw, Galaxy looks very big and strong and you have to wonder how much his economy of style is due to stamina concerns, especially as his punch output drops and in the last round or two he seems to want to pot-shot and sharpshoot Vasquez, where earlier he really looks to put it on him and dominate

If you like watching two men beat each other to a standstill you'll like this fight.

[Seamus]

Vicente Saldivar vs Ismael Laguna

R1.VS
R2.VS
R3.IL
R4.IL
R5.VS
R6.IL
R7.IL
R8.Even
R9.IL
R10.VS

Ismael Laguna 5-4-1

Certainly not the robbery it's been made out to be, though obviously I disagreed with the judges. Saldivar wins rounds when he applies non stop aggression, but when the pace slows down even a little, Laguna is just too sharp for him in the exchanges.

[scartissue]

Vicente Saldivar vs Ismael Laguna

R1.VS
R2.VS
R3.IL
R4.IL
R5.VS
R6.IL
R7.IL
R8.Even
R9.IL
R10.VS

Ismael Laguna 5-4-1

Certainly not the robbery it's been made out to be, though obviously I disagreed with the judges. Saldivar wins rounds when he applies non stop aggression, but when the pace slows down even a little, Laguna is just too sharp for him in the exchanges.

Seamus, I checked that one out as well awhile back. I totally agree and wait until you see my score. We agreed completely on 6 of the rounds, we had 2 rounds even and only disagreed on the 1st and 7th. But it was that kind of a fight and ended up with the same score. Here is what I wrote at the time.



Here's one from the archives for us. The 1964 bout between Vicente Saldivar and Ismael Laguna. I was always interested in seeing this because of the controversy surrounding it. There are two fight reports on this bout on boxrec. One from a UPI wire report that suggests a close fight and one from the LA Times that suggests Laguna was robbed. I always leaned towards the Times report because a wire report is usually a reporter from the host country and can be biased. Funny enough that I actually thought they were shortened rounds and had to look at the time elapse to see how badly shortened they were. Well they were not. They showed the fight in its entirety with all 3 minutes a round. It was just fast moving and the styles gelled to keep me riveted. Anyways, here we go.

Round 1: Laguna
Round 2: Saldivar
Round 3: Even
Round 4: Laguna
Round 5: Saldivar
Round 6: Laguna
Round 7: Saldivar
Round 8: Laguna
Round 9: Laguna
Round 10: Saldivar

Total: 5-4-1 Laguna

Believe me, no robbery. This was damn close. It was Ali-Frazier stuff. Saldivar chasing down the elegant Laguna and when he did get inside he let it rip. However, Saldivar had to eat so much leather to get inside. It was so tight that I cannot dispute the UPI report, who had it 5-4-1 Saldivar. So many rounds were close they could have been scored even or for the other fighter. No robbery here. And I would suggest you all watch this for an enjoyable fight. Man, it was over before I knew it, which is how fast it played out

[Counter-puncher]

Buddy Mcgirt - Simon Brown
10-9
10-9
10-9
10-9
9-10
9-10
9-10
10-9
10-9
10-8
10-9
10-9

117-110 a tactical masterclass from Mcgirt early, then eventually as Browns attempts to press the fight pay some dividends, Mcgirt has to bite down on the gum shield and fire back, which he does with interest getting the KD with the sweet hook in round ten.

[Counter-puncher]

Vicente Saldivar vs Ismael Laguna

R1.VS
R2.VS
R3.IL
R4.IL
R5.VS
R6.IL
R7.IL
R8.Even
R9.IL
R10.VS

Ismael Laguna 5-4-1

Certainly not the robbery it's been made out to be, though obviously I disagreed with the judges. Saldivar wins rounds when he applies non stop aggression, but when the pace slows down even a little, Laguna is just too sharp for him in the exchanges.

Seamus, I checked that one out as well awhile back. I totally agree and wait until you see my score. We agreed completely on 6 of the rounds, we had 2 rounds even and only disagreed on the 1st and 7th. But it was that kind of a fight and ended up with the same score. Here is what I wrote at the time.



Here's one from the archives for us. The 1964 bout between Vicente Saldivar and Ismael Laguna. I was always interested in seeing this because of the controversy surrounding it. There are two fight reports on this bout on boxrec. One from a UPI wire report that suggests a close fight and one from the LA Times that suggests Laguna was robbed. I always leaned towards the Times report because a wire report is usually a reporter from the host country and can be biased. Funny enough that I actually thought they were shortened rounds and had to look at the time elapse to see how badly shortened they were. Well they were not. They showed the fight in its entirety with all 3 minutes a round. It was just fast moving and the styles gelled to keep me riveted. Anyways, here we go.

Round 1: Laguna
Round 2: Saldivar
Round 3: Even
Round 4: Laguna
Round 5: Saldivar
Round 6: Laguna
Round 7: Saldivar
Round 8: Laguna
Round 9: Laguna
Round 10: Saldivar

Total: 5-4-1 Laguna

Believe me, no robbery. This was damn close. It was Ali-Frazier stuff. Saldivar chasing down the elegant Laguna and when he did get inside he let it rip. However, Saldivar had to eat so much leather to get inside. It was so tight that I cannot dispute the UPI report, who had it 5-4-1 Saldivar. So many rounds were close they could have been scored even or for the other fighter. No robbery here. And I would suggest you all watch this for an enjoyable fight. Man, it was over before I knew it, which is how fast it played out

Guys FWIW here's my card

Saldivar
Saldivar
Laguna
Saldivar
Saldivar
Laguna
Laguna
Laguna
Laguna
Saldivar

5-5. For me, from Lagunas perspective too much of the action was at close quarters early and when he tried t flurry with Saldivar, his longer arms lacked the leverage Saldivar got on the inside. Saldivar was smart to focus on the body early as like so many black Panamanian fighters Laguna is incredibly slippery with that upper body movement.

I think it's telling that the later rounds he started using his long arms to tie Saldivar up on the inside and he won those rounds much more clearly.

[scartissue]

Counter, I think that's a great card you have. It really reflects the closeness of the fight as Seamus and I saw as well. I know what you mean about those Panamanian fighters and that style. Check out Antonio Amaya if you get a chance. His style is like a mirror-image of Laguna. I know you like the Asian style of fighter. Check out the first Hiroshi Kobayashi-Amaya fight. I scored it awhile back and it's good video quality. I think you'll like it.

[Counter-puncher]

Counter, I think that's a great card you have. It really reflects the closeness of the fight as Seamus and I saw as well. I know what you mean about those Panamanian fighters and that style. Check out Antonio Amaya if you get a chance. His style is like a mirror-image of Laguna. I know you like the Asian style of fighter. Check out the first Hiroshi Kobayashi-Amaya fight. I scored it awhile back and it's good video quality. I think you'll like it.

I may get chance to check it out before bed, I'm going to try to catch up with a few of your fights from this thread over the next few days.

[scartissue]

I really recommend this one,

Khaokor Galaxy - Wilfredo Vasquez

9-10
10-9
10-9
10-9
8-10
10-9
10-9
10-9
9-10
9-10
10-10
10-9

115-114 in favour of Galaxy in a great battle hat left both men very tired at the end, Vasquez shows an iron jaw and will and comes through some brutal body punching to mount a strong comeback, twice, when it looked like he was on the verge of being overrun. He does a great job of landing the left hook against the southpaw, Galaxy looks very big and strong and you have to wonder how much his economy of style is due to stamina concerns, especially as his punch output drops and in the last round or two he seems to want to pot-shot and sharpshoot Vasquez, where earlier he really looks to put it on him and dominate

If you like watching two men beat each other to a standstill you'll like this fight.

Counter, I found this to be a damn good fight but an absolute nightmare to score. It is really subjective on what you like and look for. Vasquez's punches were sharp and crisp, but Galaxy's were heavy and hard. A real fine line here. Here we go.

Round 1: 10-9 Vasquez
Round 2: 10-9 Galaxy
Round 3: 10-9 Galaxy
Round 4: 10-10 Even
Round 5: 10-9 Vasquez
Round 6: 10-9 Vasquez
Round 7: 10-9 Galaxy
Round 8: 10-9 Galaxy
Round 9: 10-10 Even
Round 10: 10-9 Galaxy
Round 11: 10-9 Galaxy
Round 12: 10-10 Even

Total: 117-114 Galaxy

I think if I scored this fight again, my score would be completely different. That's what a fine line I felt was in each round. I think if Vasquez wasn't so gassed those last 3 rounds he could have pulled something out because Galaxy had nothing but willpower holding him up at that point. But Vasquez seemed tentative and out of range at that stage. Still, a good fight, my man.

[Counter-puncher]

it's been a favourite of mine for a while but I only just managed to work out how to play YouTube vids through my phone to the tv, so ive been on a bit of a binge lately rewatching old fights I never saw on a decent screen.

I love Galaxies body punching and accuracy when he pours it on but he's clearly (IMO) drained at the weight and has to be very circumspect, not throwing too many shots.

[Counter-puncher]

Wait didn't we differ on about 8 rounds here?

[Seamus]

Maybe i'll watch Vasquez v Galaxy tomorrow. In the mean time here's a couple I watched from the little men.

Myung Woo Yuh vs Yuichi Hosono

R1.10-9 YH
R2.10-9 MWY
R3.10-9 MWY
R4.10-9 MWY
R5.10-9 MWY
R6.10-9 MWY
R7.10-10
R8.10-9 YH
R9.10-9 MWY
R10.10-9 MWY
R11.10-9 MWY
R12.10-9 MWY

Myung Woo Yuh 118-111

In his final bout Myung Woo Yuh turns in a performance that was characteristic of his entire career. Simply put, he's just too busy for his opponent.

Yoko Gushiken vs Rigoberto Marcano

Marcano won the 1st and the 14th and 2nd and 13th were even for a score of 73-64 for Yoko Gushiken. The scoring in this bout from two of the judges was absurd, one actually gave it to Marcano by a pt. Morita the Japanese judge was the only one who had it accurate with Gushiken winning by 8. Marcano started several rds well but typically ended up smothered by Gushiken's superior workrate.

[Counter-puncher]

Always wanted to check this one out. The second title bout between Sho Saijo and Frankie Crawford. A tight, close, evenly contested bout. In fact, I will say it is probably the closest fight I've ever scored. I always heard about the Saijo jab and it is good. It is a hard jab as opposed to Frankie's which is sharp and more of a point-getter. On the other hand Frankie had that sharp left hook and visibly hurt Saijo in the 4th round. Terrific contest and if anyone scores this, be on guard, the Japanese audience scream at everything Saijo throws. So don't be swayed. here we go, 5 point must in effect.

Round 1: 5-5 Even
Round 2: 5-4 Saijo
Round 3: 5-5 Even
Round 4: 5-4 Crawford
Round 5: 5-5 Even
Round 6: 5-4 Saijo
Round 7: 5-4 Crawford
Round 8: 5-5 Even
Round 9: 5-4 Saijo
Round 10: 5-4 Saijo
Round 11: 5-4 Crawford
Round 12: 5-4 Crawford
Round 13: 5-4 Crawford
Round 14: 5-4 Crawford
Round 15: 5-4 Saijo (if anyone scores this round even I wouldn't bat an eye)

Total: 70-69 Crawford

So close with a total of 4 even rounds which is the most I think I've ever had in a 15 rounder. Saijo really took his foot off the pedal in rounds 11-14, which Frankie took advantage of. it was desperation that had him throwing hell for leather in the 15th, but Frankie's work inside with short combos was also very impressive and again, I wouldn't bat an eye if anyone had the 15th even. Very good contest.

Wow who'd be a judge? What a fight, all you say is true.

Two guys who were taught to box behind the jab and really stick to it except they're opposite a guy with a jab just as good except like you say, one is like Holmes/Ali's jab, the other like Liston. Haven't seen Crawford before, great jab, head movement is excellent, lovely counter left hook a real pleasure to watch.

Crawford Saijo
5-5
4-5
4-5
5-4
5-4
4-5
5-5
5-4
4-5
5-4
5-4
5-4
4-5
5-4
4-5

69-68 Crawford, really enjoyable fight and rounds 2-10 incredibly close