Jess Willard vrs Jack Johnson/100th Anniversary

[Kalan]

round 10 begins at about 4:30 of this clip.
(also did you notice at the beginning of round one here,that Willard got the first punch in,a telephone pole jab to Johnson's nose)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZVlsLs9Eo

Here's the problem I see Caractacus. You're prone to exaggeration and seeing things on a grainy film that the sports writers at ringside never saw or described -- but you dismiss everything they actually write that doesn't agree with your fanciful notion of the fight.

A telephone pole jab??? ... GTFOOH. No writer saw that.. They described Willard as being an amateur in distress, being outpunched 10-1, being clumsy, inept, amateurish, and even so ridiculous that Johnson broke out in laughter.. Willard was certainly in on the fix, but he knew they had to make some effort to make it look like a real fight..

Most FAKE fights resemble what they are: PHONY!!! The characteristics of a FAKE FIGHT and FAKE KO are: More sparring than actual fighting... A lot of feinting and posing with fewer fistic exchanges than you would see in a real fight... Generally no really hard blows or knockdowns occur until the fake "KO" punch is thrown... Neither boxer looks terribly fatigued at the end of the fight like they do when they're in an actual KO struggle... The boxers aren't badly marked or badly beaten up at the end of the fight -- even if they hit each other often like they hit each other in any regular sparring match they both engaged in 100's of times... The crowd gets extremely impatient with the lack of animosity displayed and killer punches thrown... They start cat-calling and bitching for a real fight... When the KO is finally thrown and one boxer is counted out, ringsiders stare at each other and ask each other "Did you see the KO punch?" and there's some doubt whether a KO punch landed at all...

The Johnson-Willard "Fight" had all the above characteristics of a FAKE!!! ... Too much sparring.. Too much feinting and posing... Fewer exchanges than you'd expect and a lot of gentlemanly clinching... No venomous punches thrown or major welts raised... Neither boxer looks fatigued or hurt well after 20 rounds of "fighting"... Neither boxer looked badly marked or like they were in a serious fight... The crowd cat-called and yelled at the boxers to "do something"... A lot of light blows landed that were more characteristic of sparring matches or exhibition matches than a "fight"... The yell of "FAKE" could even be heard... The KO punch was doubted by ringsiders and there was much discussion about it... The consensus was that "certainly" no KO punch landed on Johnson.. Experienced boxing fans aren't altogether stupid -- they sense when a real KO punch was thrown and landed and it's very hard to fool them.. Read about the KO blow http://www.perno.com/Boxing/WJ2.pdf.. 8th paragraph.. Ringsiders did NOT believe the KO punch.

[Kalan]

Caractacus -- "BTW The newspaper account's report Willard's cheekbone was bleeding in round 7 here." ... They said his cheek man... NOT his cheekbone... They reported that it was barely a scratch... They reported that neither boxer exhibited evidence of being in a Heavyweight Prize Fight.

[Caractacus]

yeah,but it was probably the jagged end of a broken zygomatic arch that punctured his skin and made it start bleeding (im surmising)
I think the same thing happened to Chuck Wepner when he fought George Foreman and Sonny Liston.

[Caractacus]

as far as the heat index .
I read when the fight started at 1 pm in the afternoon,it was 103 degrees F.
and since the fight last until about 2:45 in the afternoon it eventually reached 105 degrees F.
( one source even lists it as high as 115 degrees F.)
(I'm not sure about the humidity involved since Cuba is in a tropicical climate)
However Jack Johnson fought in the heat before of course in Reno Nevada in 1910,
where I think it reached 110 degrees(but it was a dry heat of course).

[Kalan]

Surmising doesn't work when you're looking for facts..

The cut on Willard's cheek was reported as a scratch and didn't seem video visible at the end.. They cleaned it up.. It wasn't that hot because it was a balmy spring day -- and folks were dressed up in evening wear with jackets and ties.. You'd have to list actual articles from weather services, or at least credible sources, which you haven't. Watching the evening attire and the actions of everybody in the video, it didn't seem hot to me.

The fact is, the newspapers reported that neither Johnson or Willard showed evidence of being in a Heavyweight Fight... The crowd was hooting and hollering at Johnson and Willard to "do something" because they were doing nothing but standing around feinting at each other and not throwing.. I don't know if you've ever boxed, but a top pro can easily go 30 rounds, which takes a couple hours, if he's sparring a bunch of amateurs one after another. Nobody can put any pressure on you because they lack the skills. They're not reaching you with 90% of their punches while you're tapping them at will.

Willard couldn't effectively pressure Johnson and Johnson could hit Willard at will.. From the newspaper reports Jess was getting out-punched 10-1.. showing distress.. showing rank amateurism.. and basically bumbling all over the place.. When Johnson stopped throwing Willard stopped throwing.. That's not what would happen in a real fight.. When your opponent gets tired you pick up the pace and drive him around the ring with both hands blazing.. You beat the living Hell out of him.. Willard just stood there looking at Johnson.

That's why a spectator yelled "FAKE" and the crowd hooted.. They weren't thrilled by the lack of action.. Johnson was more interested in keeping track of his wife -- because she was supposed to signal him when she had the papers and they were in order. Ringside reporters noted that Johnson sent word to his wife to vacate the arena before the 26th round... They noted that Johnson checked his wife's box, just before he faked the KO...

Why would Johnson check his wife's box except to make sure she was leaving the arena with the papers before he faked the ending??? ... Then you see on the video that loaded punch by Willard that Johnson looks in all the way in.. There is no motion picture or still shot of any such punch landing -- and Johnson does a grab and drop soft landing with his head not bouncing.. Johnson relaxes his legs and shades his eyes at the same time as ring-siders are in disbelief... They don't believe any KO punch landed.. The newspapers report the the KO punch was doubtful and almost certainly no KO punch landed.

That's not surmising... That's a mountain of evidence the fight was fakery.

[APerno]

as far as the heat index .
I read when the fight started at 1 pm in the afternoon,it was 103 degrees F.
and since the fight last until about 2:45 in the afternoon it eventually reached 105 degrees F.
( one source even lists it as high as 115 degrees F.)
(I'm not sure about the humidity involved since Cuba is in a tropicical climate)
However Jack Johnson fought in the heat before of course in Reno Nevada in 1910,
where I think it reached 110 degrees(but it was a dry heat of course).

This is from DEMPSEY-WILLARD (not Johnson-Willard; still looking)

From and Ohio newspaper as reprinted in the NYTimes, July 5th 1919

'110 and no shade' - does it really get that hot in Ohio, or is this the 'yellow press' at work?

[Caractacus]

-The Fight by Rounds
(April.05.1915)
(also scroll over to page 4 on the right to read the rest of the newspaper round-by-round coverage)


http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 3527&hl=en

It sounded like an action-packed fight from this ringside newspaper account.
Johnson trying to put away Willard before the tenth round from the sound of it.

What ?Did you read this article ?
hey AlPerno,did you find any othernewspaper 'round-by-round" accounts ?

[Caractacus]

reportedly it reach 104 degrees at ringside for this fight.(June.25.1952)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOu4_1boeLs

[APerno]

-The Fight by Rounds
(April.05.1915)
(also scroll over to page 4 on the right to read the rest of the newspaper round-by-round coverage)


http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 3527&hl=en

It sounded like an action-packed fight from this ringside newspaper account.
Johnson trying to put away Willard before the tenth round from the sound of it.

What ?Did you read this article ?
hey AlPerno,did you find any othernewspaper 'round-by-round" accounts ?

Looking for something in particular or should I just post what I stumble across?

[Kalan]

“The Sizzling Heat” was the Dempsey-Willard fight on July 4th.. Johnson-Willard was on a balmy spring day.. So to post an article about a torridly hot day as people waited to watch a Heavyweight Title Fight as evidence that Johnson-Willard was hot, is extremely misleading and devious from APerno

The newspaper article Caractacus posted reads: 5th round “Willard was badly distressed. The challenger was rattled and boxed like an amateur.” Doesn’t sound like a good match-up of skills – more like an amateur being matched against a master.

Johnson was throwing very lightly... In Round 9, “The Champion landed frequently but the blows appearing to lack their old time power.” Johnson was only 37, no need to lack anything. In the same round the article says Johnson “staggered Willard” with a right.. No follow up of the punch was reported. You jump on a foe who is staggering, but Johnson immediately eased up.

16th round “Willard went to his corner a trifle unsteady.” That’s why Johnson was easing up so much. You’re in danger of knocking an unsteady opponent out. In the 19th it said the pace slowed up perceptibly and “Johnson seemed to avoid Willard’s every lead.” Willard couldn’t do a thing and Johnson was refusing to finish him off.

22nd round.., The fight “degenerated into slow sparring” ... who pays to see a sparring match when a Heavyweight Title Fight is supposed to be happening?

24th round.., “The crowd yelled for the fighters to fight” ... doesn’t sound like much of a battle.

26th round.., The article states that Johnson looked over to his wife’s box.. Why would he do that right after he told her to leave the arena???? ... He checked to make sure she was leaving just before he tanked the fight. Johnson fulfilled his end of the conspiracy... It was reported that ringsiders doubted any KO punch landed.. Nobody ever heard or saw it land... No photo or still shot exists of it landing.

The way Johnson held his right forearm over his head to shade his eyes during the count was a dead giveaway.

[APerno]

“The Sizzling Heat” was the Dempsey-Willard fight on July 4th.. Johnson-Willard was on a balmy spring day.. So to post an article about a torridly hot day as people waited to watch a Heavyweight Title Fight as evidence that Johnson-Willard was hot, is extremely misleading and devious from APerno

Hey A-hole I stated at the beginning of the post that it was a different fight, so what was misleading/devious? I am beginning to think you are functioning at a 'trump like' level of reality, one totally self-created.

[Kalan]

No you're Trump impersonator B-hole... People can easily miss your statement that it's the wrong fight and think it's the Johnson-Willard Fight.

Why post a headline that's not relevant if you're not trying to fool people??? ... If the temperature was so damned hot the newspaper reporters would have had more to say about it. I'll believe it was 110 degrees if a newspaper article from the day states it was. But it was spring on a fine day -- and I assume temperatures weren't extreme. Nobody seemed to be sweating profusely like in Dempsey-Willard.

[Kalan]

reportedly it reach 104 degrees at ringside for this fight.(June.25.1952)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOu4_1boeLs

Maxim paced himself for the elements... He respected the 15-round distance and told Robinson he couldn't punch... "You're not breaking popcorn Ray."

[Caractacus]

Maxim vrs Robinson was held outside in Yankee Stadium,Bronx New York City of course.

BTW I just read somewhere that the highest recorded tempertature since records were kept since 1801.
for Cuba was 104 degrees Fahrenheit (40 celecius)
but it didnt give the month or year.
It did say June was the hottest month of the year with an average of 81 F (27C)
and the hottest its gotten since 1996 was in 1999 (91 F) and the humidity 94.

[Kalan]

Right ... and April 4th won't be anything like July 4th.

[Caractacus]

Right ... and April 4th won't be anything like July 4th.

unless there was some kind of heat wave going on in Cuba like in New York City June 1952 of course.

[Kalan]

Right ... all the newspapers would ignore an unseasonable spring heat wave that reached extreme temperatures.

[Caractacus]

hey AlPerno what did the various contemporey newspapers have to say about the weather conditions,
the day before and on the day of the fight ?
( if any mentioned it at all that is).

[Caractacus]

check this old newspaper article out.
( from April.2.1915)

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1915 ... -for-fight

[Kalan]

On the subject of Willard... Jack Dempsey generally respected his opponents... He wrote very respectfully about Carpentier, Gibbons, Sharkey, Tunney, Brennan, Miske, Smith, Fulton, Meehan, John Lester Johnson, and even the inept Luis Angel Firpo, who was little more than a punching bag.

But Dempsey had very unkind things to say about Willard and Morris, even when they were alive. So did Doc Kearns. Dempsey and Kearns had a major falling out over finances, but they always respected each other. Kearns said guys like Willard and Morris were plastic phonies who exploited Boxing and didn't belong in the same ring with a real fighter. Dempsey called Willard a "big bum" who he hit as hard as he could because punching him was as easy as throwing a pine cone at the side of a barn. I'm not sure he was the worst, but of all Heavyweight Champions Willard was the least professional.

[APerno]

hey AlPerno what did the various contemporey newspapers have to say about the weather conditions,
the day before and on the day of the fight ?
( if any mentioned it at all that is).

I have been trying but it seems that when looking for a 102 year old weather report from Cuba, even the Internet comes up wanting - but still looking.

[APerno]

On the subject of Willard... Jack Dempsey generally respected his opponents... He wrote very respectfully about Carpentier, Gibbons, Sharkey, Tunney, Brennan, Miske, Smith, Fulton, Meehan, John Lester Johnson, and even the inept Luis Angel Firpo, who was little more than a punching bag.

But Dempsey had very unkind things to say about Willard and Morris, even when they were alive. So did Doc Kearns. Dempsey and Kearns had a major falling out over finances, but they always respected each other. Kearns said guys like Willard and Morris were plastic phonies who exploited Boxing and didn't belong in the same ring with a real fighter. Dempsey called Willard a "big bum" who he hit as hard as he could because punching him was as easy as throwing a pine cone at the side of a barn. I'm not sure he was the worst, but of all Heavyweight Champions Willard was the least professional.

I am sorry to hear that Dempsey spoke that way about another fighter - are you sure your source is a good one - hubris never seemed to be one of Dempsey's faults.

Below is an article where Dempsey refuses to take a reporter's bait and trash talk, but that does not mean he hadn't other times. (I am not trying to be 'devious' - just sharing info, OK?)

'finances' that is an interesting way to say it, another way to say it is, Kearns was stealing from Dempsey; that's why Dempsey dumped him - also they say the new wife had a hand in Kearns' demise.

[Caractacus]

It wouldn't the the first time a HWChampion was approached to throw a title fight,to set up a lucrative rematch.
Joe Louis said he was approached by "some people" through Harry Mandel to throw the fight with Tami Maurello.
( he didn't say which fight exactly in his 1978 autobiography ,but obviously that was the one he was referring to )

[APerno]

It wouldn't the the first time a HWChampion was approached to throw a title fight,to set up a lucrative rematch.
Joe Louis said he was approached by "some people" through Harry Mandel to throw the fight with Tami Maurello.
( he didn't say which fight exactly in his 1978 autobiography ,but obviously that was the one he was referring to )

Are you suggesting that it is 'obvious' because Tami Mauriello's name ends in a vowel?

Do you think Mauriello was mobbed-up?

[Caractacus]

Well if you read his 1978 autobiography, you will read that he said he was invited to discuss it at such places
as "at the top of the Empire State Building and on "the Staten Island Ferry".
and then about a paragraph or two later in the book he talks about preparing to fight Tami Maureillo.
so I just put 2 and 2 together myself,you know what I mean ?