Patriotic rooting ?

[Best Coast]

The first time Joshua fights in the United States he'll load a ballpark... Against Wilder.. Klitscko.. Ortiz.. Parker.. any top Heavyweight, it doesn't matter.

The US fans are hungry for a great Heavyweight... It's been a long time.

It has been a long time but I beg to differ on Joshua's ability to pack out a ballpark in the US. Neither Lennox Lewis or the Klitschkos ever packed out a ballpark and the Klitschkos were such a mediocre draw that they eventually went back to Europe for most of their late careers.

Only time will tell but IMO the only way Anthony Joshua draws over 30,000 in America is if he fights Wilder in his hometown of Tuscaloosa, Alabama (where Crimson Tide plays their football games in a 100K stadium). Even then they would probably get only 40,000, which is less than half of capacity.

Short of that, the only way Joshua exceeds 30,000 in the US is if he brings 20,000 British fans with him like Ricky Hatton used to do!!

Joshua will pull over 100,000 US fans if he's in the right venue versus the right opponent... They put Dempsey and Louis fights into massive ballparks when they had the right opponent... They could have accommodated more than 130,000 asses for Joshua-Klitschko if they had the seats.

Sorry amigo, I just can't agree with that. Dempsey and Louis were a completely different era, when boxing was a MAINSTREAM SPORT. The fight game is now a niche sport. As popular as Manny Pacquiao was in his prime, he could still only put 55,000 in Cowboy Stadium. I seriously doubt anyone will break that 55,000 mark in the US in the foreseeable future.

As a longtime fight fan I would love to see a ballpark in the US filled with 100,000 boxing fans, but I just dont think you're being realistic if you honestly expect that to happen. Only time will tell, but if you turn out to be right, I will be the first one to give you props for predicting that!!

[Kalan]

I usually identify with the best fighter.. Is that so strange??? I could care less what color or nationality he is.. But sometimes I pull for the underdog.

Since he beat Stiverne I rooted for all of Wilder's opponents except Arreola and Molina.. I just think those 2 are a couple dogs who don't even train hard.. They don't eat right and have no discipline.. Forget they can't fight..

I was really pulling for Washington versus Wilder.. I thought he was going to get knocked out in 2 rounds because he's wide open.. He's big, tall, strong, athletic, and he trains real hard.. He doesn't have good coaching because his potential isn't that great.. But he won the first 4 rounds off of Wilder because DW was looking for the KO blow exclusively.. He knew he would get it rather quickly.. I was hoping Washington would string a few more rounds together, but GW just doesn't have a defense that works against somebody this big, long, powerful and quick, who has some skills.

[Best Coast]

Wise words BC but sadly I seem much better at giving good advice than taking it. Having said that it's not easy. Like telling yourself there's no point beating yourself up for inexplicably making some excuse when you look back at the time that gorgeous woman invited you in for coffee.

At least I'm not guilty of that one ... she told me piss off

That's also not true but you get the point - hard not to feel regret about fights that desperately needed to be made, yet weren't.

Would you agree that the phenomenal financial success of Floyd-Pacman helped pave the way for other recent big-name megafights like Ward-Kovalev and GGG-Canelo? I expect to see more major matchups like that because of the lure of financial success. Ward-Kovalev II wont do great numbers as their first bout already proved, but I think GGG-Canelo has the potential to be a PPV bonanza (1.5 million or more PPV buys)!!

[Kalan]

Sorry amigo, I just can't agree with that. Dempsey and Louis were a completely different era, when boxing was a MAINSTREAM SPORT. The fight game is now a niche sport. As popular as Manny Pacquiao was in his prime, he could still only put 55,000 in Cowboy Stadium. I seriously doubt anyone will break that 55,000 mark in the US in the foreseeable future.

As a longtime fight fan I would love to see a ballpark in the US filled with 100,000 boxing fans, but I just dont think you're being realistic if you honestly expect that to happen. Only time will tell, but if you turn out to be right, I will be the first one to give you props for predicting that!!

Pacquiao isn't a Heavyweight... He's no hitter... He's not an American... English is his 2nd language... He fought somebody who had no significance whatever.

Joshua is a Lineal Heavyweight Champion.. He's undefeated.. He's a tremendous hitter.. He's knocked all his opponents out including in 4 World Title opponents.. English is his 1st language.. He's a very likeable and charismatic character.. He'd be fighting Klitschko or Parker, or Wilder, or Povetkin, or Ortiz, or Fury.. He's not going to be fighting Charles Martin.

Joshua would to the PPV... GGG-Canelo will do the PPV numbers... PPV will gradually come back... Floyd and Pac killed it with their performance.

[Ossyrules]

Sorry amigo, I just can't agree with that. Dempsey and Louis were a completely different era, when boxing was a MAINSTREAM SPORT. The fight game is now a niche sport. As popular as Manny Pacquiao was in his prime, he could still only put 55,000 in Cowboy Stadium. I seriously doubt anyone will break that 55,000 mark in the US in the foreseeable future.

As a longtime fight fan I would love to see a ballpark in the US filled with 100,000 boxing fans, but I just dont think you're being realistic if you honestly expect that to happen. Only time will tell, but if you turn out to be right, I will be the first one to give you props for predicting that!!

Pacquiao isn't a Heavyweight... He's no hitter... He's not an American... English is his 2nd language... He fought somebody who had no significance whatever.

Joshua is a Lineal Heavyweight Champion.. He's undefeated.. He's a tremendous hitter.. He's knocked all his opponents out including in 4 World Title opponents.. English is his 1st language.. He's a very likeable and charismatic character.. He'd be fighting Klitschko or Parker, or Wilder, or Povetkin, or Ortiz, or Fury.. He's not going to be fighting Charles Martin.

Joshua would to the PPV... GGG-Canelo will do the PPV numbers... PPV will gradually come back... Floyd and Pac killed it with their performance.

Tyson Fury is Lineal champion Kalan is he not?

And Pacquaio was a hitter, through almost all his career. And his record is full of quality opponents. Certainly more significant opponents than what Joshua has on offer right now.

I'm a Joshua fan but this is how I see it.

[candyslim]

I don't really know BC. I'm sure that fight caused quite a few media execs to wake-up to the "nice little earner" potential of similar superfights, but it may simply be cyclic and subject to who's around to participate in mega-matches.

Being there was not an option so in 1981 I watched the entire Leonard v Hearns card in a London cinema on live broadcast from the states, which was one could say, an early form of pay per view.

I'd like to think you're right and that great fights that don't get made will become more of a rarity, but we shall have to wait and see.

Kalan: I pretty sure Ricky Hatton would beg to differ, as regards to your assessment of the pacman's punching power, although he doesn't hit like Joshua

[ValMar]

It has been a long time but I beg to differ on Joshua's ability to pack out a ballpark in the US. Neither Lennox Lewis or the Klitschkos ever packed out a ballpark and the Klitschkos were such a mediocre draw that they eventually went back to Europe for most of their late careers.

Only time will tell but IMO the only way Anthony Joshua draws over 30,000 in America is if he fights Wilder in his hometown of Tuscaloosa, Alabama (where Crimson Tide plays their football games in a 100K stadium). Even then they would probably get only 40,000, which is less than half of capacity.

Short of that, the only way Joshua exceeds 30,000 in the US is if he brings 20,000 British fans with him like Ricky Hatton used to do!!

Joshua will pull over 100,000 US fans if he's in the right venue versus the right opponent... They put Dempsey and Louis fights into massive ballparks when they had the right opponent... They could have accommodated more than 130,000 asses for Joshua-Klitschko if they had the seats.

Sorry amigo, I just can't agree with that. Dempsey and Louis were a completely different era, when boxing was a MAINSTREAM SPORT. The fight game is now a niche sport. As popular as Manny Pacquiao was in his prime, he could still only put 55,000 in Cowboy Stadium. I seriously doubt anyone will break that 55,000 mark in the US in the foreseeable future.

As a longtime fight fan I would love to see a ballpark in the US filled with 100,000 boxing fans, but I just dont think you're being realistic if you honestly expect that to happen. Only time will tell, but if you turn out to be right, I will be the first one to give you props for predicting that!!

I would bet on my life that Joshua-Klitschko 2 would make more than 55 000 in my country and all countries in my neighbourhood ( Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro).

[Best Coast]

Sorry amigo, I just can't agree with that. Dempsey and Louis were a completely different era, when boxing was a MAINSTREAM SPORT. The fight game is now a niche sport. As popular as Manny Pacquiao was in his prime, he could still only put 55,000 in Cowboy Stadium. I seriously doubt anyone will break that 55,000 mark in the US in the foreseeable future.

As a longtime fight fan I would love to see a ballpark in the US filled with 100,000 boxing fans, but I just dont think you're being realistic if you honestly expect that to happen. Only time will tell, but if you turn out to be right, I will be the first one to give you props for predicting that!!

Pacquiao isn't a Heavyweight... He's no hitter... He's not an American... English is his 2nd language... He fought somebody who had no significance whatever.

Joshua is a Lineal Heavyweight Champion.. He's undefeated.. He's a tremendous hitter.. He's knocked all his opponents out including in 4 World Title opponents.. English is his 1st language.. He's a very likeable and charismatic character.. He'd be fighting Klitschko or Parker, or Wilder, or Povetkin, or Ortiz, or Fury.. He's not going to be fighting Charles Martin.

Joshua would to the PPV... GGG-Canelo will do the PPV numbers... PPV will gradually come back... Floyd and Pac killed it with their performance.

Pacquiao NOT a hitter?!?

In his prime Pac was one of the top P4P punchers of his era. When he packed out Cowboy Stadium TWICE he was coming off a 4 fight KO streak:

TKO12 Cotto
KO 2 Hatton
TKO8 DeLaHoya
TKO9 Diaz

Before that he mowed through the top 130 pounders in the sport:
KO3 Morales
TKO10 Morales
TKO11 Barrera

I totally agree that Joshua is likeable and charismatic. I just dont see him surpassing Pac's 55,000 live crowd and dont see him breaking 1.5 million PPVs in the US either, no matter who he fights.

Like I said, if you turn out to be right, I'll be the first one to give you props for predicting Joshua as the next big attraction in America!!

[ValMar]

For the country with more than 300 000 000 inhabitants, crowd of 55 000 is nothing. If you are right - boxing is in the great danger.....

[SaadOffTheDeck]

For the country with more than 300 000 000 inhabitants, crowd of 55 000 is nothing. If you are right - boxing is in the great danger.....

Boxing is fine, it's just half dead in the us.

[Tony1244]

I root for a fighter if I can relate to him. That doesn't necessarily mean an American. My demeanor is a lot more Like Lennox Lewis, I believe than Mike Tyson for example.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

I hate patriotic rooting.
Nationalism is stupid and evil.
Bunch of idiots willing to kill for a manipulated idea.
Bunch of idiots waving flags of countries that routinely sh!t on everyone but the rich.

Even the very progressive countries of Northern Europe have practices and policies that are devastating to the poor.
Many of those abuses occur outside of their borders so they are able to maintain their progressive identity.

I wish we could forget these imaginary borders and just treat everyone as equals.

[ValMar]

I hate patriotic rooting.
Nationalism is stupid and evil.
Bunch of idiots willing to kill for a manipulated idea.
Bunch of idiots waving flags of countries that routinely sh!t on everyone but the rich.

Even the very progressive countries of Northern Europe have practices and policies that are devastating to the poor.
Many of those abuses occur outside of their borders so they are able to maintain their progressive identity.

I wish we could forget these imaaginary borders and just treat everyone as equals.

Bravo !

[Best Coast]

I hate patriotic rooting.
Nationalism is stupid and evil.
Bunch of idiots willing to kill for a manipulated idea.
Bunch of idiots waving flags of countries that routinely sh!t on everyone but the rich.

Even the very progressive countries of Northern Europe have practices and policies that are devastating to the poor.
Many of those abuses occur outside of their borders so they are able to maintain their progressive identity.

I wish we could forget these imaginary borders and just treat everyone as equals.

Sorry amigo. "One-world citizens" like you live in Fantasy Land and your dreams of a borderless world are unrealistic...it's just not human nature.

I've rooted at one time or another for fighters/athletes from just about every nation/region of the world, depending on the individual athlete. But that doesnt mean it's "EVIL" to root for someone from you local school, hometown, home state/province, your country or your region of the world (Africa, Asia, Americas, etc).

But nonetheless, feel free to keep waving YOUR flag...the white snowflake one-world flag with a Unicorn in the middle.

[Best Coast]

For the country with more than 300 000 000 inhabitants, crowd of 55 000 is nothing. If you are right - boxing is in the great danger.....

Beg to differ amigo. The most recent "Golden Age of American Boxing" was the 1980s-early 1990s that featured Leonard, Hearns, Tyson, Holyfield, Hagler, etc. and none of those guys ever exceeded 25,000-30,000 in live attendance and weregenerally well under 20,000 live gate.

That's because in the US boxing is TV-driven and has been since the 1950s. Probably the only live boxing shows since then that surpassed Pac-Margarito in the US were Chavez-Whitaker in 1993 with 58,900 at Alamodome in San Antonio and Ali-Spinks II with 63,000 in 1978 at Superdome in New Orleans.

Boxing in the US is more TV-driven than ever before and the chances of ANYONE drawing in over 55,000 live gate in America are very slim. TV gives you a much better view of the fight than everyone in the live crowd except (In some cases) the ringsiders. I know you cannot get the atmosphere at home you can at a live megafight, but most US fans just dont put as much emphasis on atmosphere as on getting the best view!!

Now more than EVER the advent of High-Def TV has rendered live boxing attendance figures nearly irrelevant in America.

[ValMar]

Best Coast, would you answer this question. Frankly, please.
Would you root for your compatriot (bad person, criminal who maltreats his wife, even mother, dealing heroin in spare time) or for his opponent (decent person with flawless behaviour, born and live in, let us say, Bulgaria) ?

[Best Coast]

Best Coast, would you answer this question. Frankly, please.
Would you root for your compatriot (bad person, criminal who maltreats his wife, even mother, dealing heroin in spare time) or for his opponent (decent person with flawless behaviour, born and live in, let us say, Bulgaria) ?

Apparently you didnt read very closely the long response that you thanked me for on page 7, so I'll quote the relevant part of that long post:

As a long-time boxing fan who happens to be white, I generally root for the black American fighter over ANY foreign fighter, be they black, white, Latino or Asian. Growing up, most of my favorite athletes were black, especially in boxing because there have always been more good black fighters than white ones. There are a lot of Latino American fighters these days and I root for most of them over foreign fighters too. The only black fighters I've rooted against are thugs like Tyson.

I never rooted for Tyson even after he "paid his dues" in prison for raping Desiree Washington (not to mention beating his wife Robin Givens). I dont think I could have rooted any harder against Tyson even if he "maltreated his mother & dealt heroin in his spare time" (as you gave as an example above). I thoroughly enjoyed watching Tyson get beaten down by the likes of Kevin McBride and Danny Willlams, jst to name a few.

Even though there arent many white Americans in boxing to root for, I am a big fan of current UFC heavyweight champ Stipe Miocic, who holds down a fulltime fireman job in addition to training daily for UFC.

So even though I generally root for the American fighter, that almost always excludes thugs, rapists, criminals, etc. Anyone who always roots for their countryman (just because he lives in the same country as you), even though he is a thug/criminal is nothing more than a blind fool.

[ValMar]

Best Coast, would you answer this question. Frankly, please.
Would you root for your compatriot (bad person, criminal who maltreats his wife, even mother, dealing heroin in spare time) or for his opponent (decent person with flawless behaviour, born and live in, let us say, Bulgaria) ?

Apparently you didnt read very closely the long response that you thanked me for on page 7, so I'll quote the relevant part of that long post:

As a long-time boxing fan who happens to be white, I generally root for the black American fighter over ANY foreign fighter, be they black, white, Latino or Asian. Growing up, most of my favorite athletes were black, especially in boxing because there have always been more good black fighters than white ones. There are a lot of Latino American fighters these days and I root for most of them over foreign fighters too. The only black fighters I've rooted against are thugs like Tyson.

I never rooted for Tyson even after he "paid his dues" in prison for raping Desiree Washington (not to mention beating his wife Robin Givens). I dont think I could have rooted any harder against Tyson even if he "maltreated his mother & dealt heroin in his spare time" (as you gave as an example above). I thoroughly enjoyed watching Tyson get beaten down by the likes of Kevin McBride and Danny Willlams, jst to name a few.

Even though there arent many white Americans in boxing to root for, I am a big fan of current UFC heavyweight champ Stipe Miocic, who holds down a fulltime fireman job in addition to training daily for UFC.

So even though I generally root for the American fighter, that almost always excludes thugs, rapists, criminals, etc. Anyone who always roots for their countryman (just because he lives in the same country as you), even though he is a thug/criminal is nothing more than a blind fool.

Best Coast, I read mindfully your posts, and I can understand you, even, mostly, I agree with you. The only thing, I would like to determine is "the red line" where natural love for your country (and "your" people) is becoming dangerous. I do not claim that rooting for your compatriots is always nationalism, but I do claim that nationalism (racism, reliogious chauvinism or jingoism) is always the pure evil.
Anyway, I was born 1965, and have a great life experience, and I feel that you a positive and decent poster, or better to say - positive and decent person.

[candyslim]

I can fully understand your worldview Valmar probably has much to do with what happened in Jugoslavia following the death of Josef Broz. I visited Croatia/Jugoslavia just after and the locals were looking over their shoulders muttering darkly about the great bear. I recall they had a joke that wasn't entirely a joke based on a parody of those typical travel posters, it went "Visit the Soviet Union ... before the Soviet Union visits you". I don't think many realized that the real threat was from within.

I don't imagine that many of us have as good a reason to feel the way you do about nationalism Valmar, and for that I am deeply grateful. Long may that remain the case.

[ValMar]

I can fully understand your worldview Valmar probably has much to do with what happened in Jugoslavia following the death of Josef Broz. I visited Croatia/Jugoslavia just after and the locals were looking over their shoulders muttering darkly about the great bear. I recall they had a joke that wasn't entirely a joke based on a parody of those typical travel posters, it went "Visit the Soviet Union ... before the Soviet Union visits you". I don't think many realized that the real threat was from within.

I don't imagine that many of us have as good a reason to feel the way you do about nationalism Valmar, and for that I am deeply grateful. Long may that remain the case.

"Malo nas je, al' smo govna" / There are a little bit of us, but we are s.it ----a graphit

[candyslim]

Sorry my friend but that went right over my head

[ValMar]

Sorry my friend but that went right over my head

OK, it was off topic. Let us pray (although I am an agnosthic) for Joshua-Fury fight, and I will root for a draw.
What do you think who would get more support in UK, Joshua or Fury ?

[Ossyrules]

Sorry my friend but that went right over my head

OK, it was off topic. Let us pray (although I am an agnosthic) for Joshua-Fury fight, and I will root for a draw.
What do you think who would get more support in UK, Joshua or Fury ?

Joshua in numbers but the fury supporters are loud

[Best Coast]

Best Coast, would you answer this question. Frankly, please.
Would you root for your compatriot (bad person, criminal who maltreats his wife, even mother, dealing heroin in spare time) or for his opponent (decent person with flawless behaviour, born and live in, let us say, Bulgaria) ?

Apparently you didnt read very closely the long response that you thanked me for on page 7, so I'll quote the relevant part of that long post:

As a long-time boxing fan who happens to be white, I generally root for the black American fighter over ANY foreign fighter, be they black, white, Latino or Asian. Growing up, most of my favorite athletes were black, especially in boxing because there have always been more good black fighters than white ones. There are a lot of Latino American fighters these days and I root for most of them over foreign fighters too. The only black fighters I've rooted against are thugs like Tyson.

I never rooted for Tyson even after he "paid his dues" in prison for raping Desiree Washington (not to mention beating his wife Robin Givens). I dont think I could have rooted any harder against Tyson even if he "maltreated his mother & dealt heroin in his spare time" (as you gave as an example above). I thoroughly enjoyed watching Tyson get beaten down by the likes of Kevin McBride and Danny Willlams, jst to name a few.

Even though there arent many white Americans in boxing to root for, I am a big fan of current UFC heavyweight champ Stipe Miocic, who holds down a fulltime fireman job in addition to training daily for UFC.

So even though I generally root for the American fighter, that almost always excludes thugs, rapists, criminals, etc. Anyone who always roots for their countryman (just because he lives in the same country as you), even though he is a thug/criminal is nothing more than a blind fool.

Best Coast, I read mindfully your posts, and I can understand you, even, mostly, I agree with you. The only thing, I would like to determine is "the red line" where natural love for your country (and "your" people) is becoming dangerous. I do not claim that rooting for your compatriots is always nationalism, but I do claim that nationalism (racism, religious chauvinism or jingoism) is always the pure evil.
Anyway, I was born 1965, and have a great life experience, and I feel that you a positive and decent poster, or better to say - positive and decent person.

Thanks for the props. I beg to differ on your willingness to lump nationalism together with racism, which clearly misses the mark. I'll put it in a sports context to keep it relevant.

Nationalism/regionalism/localism is rooting FOR a team or athlete because he is from your hometown, home state, country or region. Because you are cheering FOR someone it is a positive thing.

Racism is rooting AGAINST someone because you dont like how they were born (color, race, ethnicity) or where they were born. Because you are rooting AGAINST someone it is a negative thing.

That may seem overly simplistic, but I dont think it's as complex as some folks try to make it. Here's the beef I have with the "Nationalism is Evil" crowd: Where do you draw the line between nationalism, localism and regionalism? Is one legit and the others evil or ALL of them evil?

MY QUESTION FOR YOU: Is it OK to root for someone because they went to your SCHOOL, live in your HOMETOWN or your COUNTY, STATE or PROVINCE, but NOT OK to root for someone because they are from your COUNTRY?

[Best Coast]

I can fully understand your worldview Valmar probably has much to do with what happened in Jugoslavia following the death of Josef Broz. I visited Croatia/Jugoslavia just after and the locals were looking over their shoulders muttering darkly about the great bear. I recall they had a joke that wasn't entirely a joke based on a parody of those typical travel posters, it went "Visit the Soviet Union ... before the Soviet Union visits you". I don't think many realized that the real threat was from within.

I don't imagine that many of us have as good a reason to feel the way you do about nationalism Valmar, and for that I am deeply grateful. Long may that remain the case.

Thanks for bringing that up!

I didnt realize ValMar is from the former Yugoslavia. Growing up in a Balkanized region could definitely give one a different slant on nationalism and cause one to see it as evil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization

Balkanization, or Balkanisation, is a geopolitical term, originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or uncooperative with one another. Balkanization is a result of foreign policies creating geopolitical fragmentation as can be seen at times in the Western Balkans with respect to the Ottoman empire, the Austro-Hungarian empire, the Third Reich, the United Nations and NATO.