MARCIANO v PATTERSON 1956

[nobleart1978]

If the rock had decided to take one more fight after beating Archie Moore and faced Patterson, what do you think would have happened....

[Syntax Error]

Patterson gets decked early, but gets up starts to build up a lead with his only to get stopped in about 11 by a rallying Marciano.

[APerno]

Patterson's fast hands land almost at will for five rounds; in round 3 a leaping left hook puts Marciano down for six; after 5 rounds Marciano is bleeding from the nose and Patterson is ahead on all three score cards; round 6 sees Marciano begin to bully Patterson forcing Patterson to fight in close; Marciano begins to punch straight through Patterson's peak-a-boo defense and eventually lands a big right hand; Marciano KO 8. Rocky retires 50-0.

[HomicideHenry]

Marciano KO 7

[Kalan]

Patterson would pepper Marciano all night with jabs and combinations like he did Chuvalo and Bonavena... Only they were a lot bigger and stronger.

Easy UD for Patterson... Floyd would deck Marciano too... Moore dropped Rocky with a short right -- but couldn't put a dent in Floyd Patterson.

[cfang]

Patterson was not durable. After he was destroyed twice by liston both times in around 2 mins, he avoided anyone with a big punch from there on in. The only other guy he fought with a huge punch was Johannson and off he was koed by him too. Rocky would KO patterson I'm certain of it.

[Kalan]

I'm certain Patterson WOULDN'T get knocked out by Marciano... Several people knocked Ezzard Charles out before he went 15 rounds with Rocky.. The previous year Charles was beaten by green Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson and by slow as molasses Heavyweight Nino Valdes.. Charles was washed up but still went 15 with Rocky... A couple fights before he went 11 rounds with Marciano, feather hitting Roland LaStarza was beaten by incompetent Light Heavyweight greenhorn Rocky Jones.. LaStarza was gone.. Don Cockell was knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin and by feather hitting Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade -- who flattened Cockell in only 4 rounds... After that Cockell still managed to go 9 rounds with Marciano when he'd last 3 rounds with Patterson at the most.

Marciano never fought anyone like Liston, Patterson, Johansson, Ali, Quarry, Ellis -- or the Heavyweights of the late 50's and 60's who Patterson fought.. Rocky fought a very weak group of very small, washed up fighters.. He quickly retired when blazing fast, dynamite punching Patterson appeared on the scene and took over the Heavyweight Division... Marciano ruled during the weakest time in Heavyweight Division History. He simply lacked the skills and precision of Patterson. This was proven when old Light Heavyweight Archie Moore knocked Marciano down and took him 9 hard rounds.. Moore couldn't knock Patterson down and he only lasted 4 rounds and change.. Floyd was just too fast for old Arch -- but Archie was able to stay with Marciano and put him down.

[HomicideHenry]

The "Archie got iced by Patterson" argument is so over done and so overblown... Archie Moore only had THREE fight in 1955 and one was Marciano... He trained his ass off for Rocky and took training camp seriously... Prior to fighting Patterson in 1956... Archie Moore had TWELVE contests, one of which was a defense of the light heavyweight championship... If anything, his preparation for Patterson was next to nothing and he was burned out... How do I know this? He fought Floyd on November 30th... The fight BEFORE the title match? Took place August 9th. Less than 3 months. I don't think the fight was even announced until well after August 9th, so that makes it probably a two month training camp at best.

[Kalan]

The "Archie got iced by Patterson" argument is so over done and so overblown... Archie Moore only had THREE fight in 1955 and one was Marciano... He trained his ass off for Rocky and took training camp seriously... Prior to fighting Patterson in 1956... Archie Moore had TWELVE contests, one of which was a defense of the light heavyweight championship... If anything, his preparation for Patterson was next to nothing and he was burned out... How do I know this? He fought Floyd on November 30th... The fight BEFORE the title match? Took place August 9th. Less than 3 months. I don't think the fight was even announced until well after August 9th, so that makes it probably a two month training camp at best.

I don't know where you get your facts HomicideHenry... Archie Moore fought NO fights on August 9th of 1956.. In fact he fought no fights in August of 1956 at all... But if he DID fight on that date it would've been more than 3.5 months away. You need to work on your basic math skills.

Archie had a fight more than 4 months out from the Patterson fight against James Parker ... Moore was used to fighting more often than that to stay sharp as he fought well over 200 fights in his career -- Moore requested a tune-up opponent to keep him sharp for Patterson.. Moore wanted a very easy opponent so they brought in a guy making his pro debut.. That fight against wrestler Roy Shire and was super easy.. It was no more incidental and less taxing than a weak sparring session.. Shire made it into the 3rd round with Moore pitty patting him and the referee stopped it.. How is that going to burn Moore out??? That was a virtual exhibition didn't tax Moore who was as sharp and fresh as he could get for Patterson.

Fighting 11 times in a year -- the actual number -- wasn't going to tax Moore because Archie fought up to 20 times in a year.. Moore loved to box, so he fought as often as possible..

[HomicideHenry]

August, September, whatever... Roy Shire counts whether you like it or not... Eleven fights, I stand corrected, big effing deal... That's eight more than he had the year before in preparation for Marciano, because he took The Rock far more seriously... Patterson is lucky as hell he was facing an overworked, uninterested competitor that night instead of the same guy who fought Marciano.

As for "twenty times a year", the only time Moore remotely did anything like that was 1951 (18) and 1937 (17). Sure he was hyperactive, but considering that 1955 was THREE mere fights, while 1956 was 11 prior to Patterson, goes to show a real sense of seriousness in the threat of Marciano in comparison to Patterson.

Fact of business Moore was the light heavyweight champion and when Marciano retired, Patterson was rated #1 at 175. Only when Marciano rated Patterson, did Floyd suddenly get this #5 rating at heavyweight. He earned the spot, sure, when he beat Tommy Jackson but holy cow. Who the eff gets automatically rated that high without any real fights at heavyweight?

I honestly think Archie Moore figured the kid was nothing and getting ranked only because of D'Amato and his pull, plus Marciano (for whatever reason) threw Patterson into the mix. Thus, the hyperactivity, when in reality he should have focused hard on training for Floyd.

[APerno]

August, September, whatever... Roy Shire counts whether you like it or not... Eleven fights, I stand corrected, big effing deal... That's eight more than he had the year before in preparation for Marciano, because he took The Rock far more seriously... Patterson is lucky as hell he was facing an overworked, uninterested competitor that night instead of the same guy who fought Marciano.

As for "twenty times a year", the only time Moore remotely did anything like that was 1951 (18) and 1937 (17). Sure he was hyperactive, but considering that 1955 was THREE mere fights, while 1956 was 11 prior to Patterson, goes to show a real sense of seriousness in the threat of Marciano in comparison to Patterson.

Fact of business Moore was the light heavyweight champion and when Marciano retired, Patterson was rated #1 at 175. Only when Marciano rated Patterson, did Floyd suddenly get this #5 rating at heavyweight. He earned the spot, sure, when he beat Tommy Jackson but holy cow. Who the eff gets automatically rated that high without any real fights at heavyweight?

I honestly think Archie Moore figured the kid was nothing and getting ranked only because of D'Amato and his pull, plus Marciano (for whatever reason) threw Patterson into the mix. Thus, the hyperactivity, when in reality he should have focused hard on training for Floyd.

I would argue that the slow down in Moore's activity in late '54 and '55 looks more like he was acting the title holder, (fighting less often for more money,) than it was being concerned about Marciano -- and then in '56 with neither title to defend (LHW/HW) he was forced back into fighting multiple ten rounders to bang out a living. I think neither Marciano nor Patterson figured into how often Moore fought, only money did.

[Kalan]

I would argue that the slow down in Moore's activity in late '54 and '55 looks more like he was acting the title holder, (fighting less often for more money,) than it was being concerned about Marciano -- and then in '56 with neither title to defend (LHW/HW) he was forced back into fighting multiple ten rounders to bang out a living. I think neither Marciano nor Patterson figured into how often Moore fought, only money did.

True... Moore loved to fight and lived for it.. For him, fighting was getting a sparring partner not only for free, but actually getting paid for it.. He was also a big fan of Boxing and went to a lot of fights.. He was a fan of Hurricane Carter and would talk about what a great fighter Charley Burley was and how difficult he was to hit.. I remember talking to Denny Moyer who had over 140 professional fights.. I happened to be in Minneapolis for a few days and went to see his fight with Pat O'Connor.. I asked him about a couple of young fighters on the scene and what he thought about them.. He said, "I don't follow Boxing. Boxing is my job and I try to do it well, but I'm not a fan."

I've been amazed at the number of boxers who could GAF less who the other boxers in their division are and don't want to watch Boxing on TV. They run religiously and train diligently, but once they leave the gym Boxing doesn't exist.. That wasn't Archie Moore.. He loved Boxing..

[Tomasino]

I would argue that the slow down in Moore's activity in late '54 and '55 looks more like he was acting the title holder, (fighting less often for more money,) than it was being concerned about Marciano -- and then in '56 with neither title to defend (LHW/HW) he was forced back into fighting multiple ten rounders to bang out a living. I think neither Marciano nor Patterson figured into how often Moore fought, only money did.

True... Moore loved to fight and lived for it.. For him, fighting was getting a sparring partner not only for free, but actually getting paid for it.. He was also a big fan of Boxing and went to a lot of fights.. He was a fan of Hurricane Carter and would talk about what a great fighter Charley Burley was and how difficult he was to hit.. I remember talking to Denny Moyer who had over 140 professional fights.. I happened to be in Minneapolis for a few days and went to see his fight with Pat O'Connor.. I asked him about a couple of young fighters on the scene and what he thought about them.. He said, "I don't follow Boxing. Boxing is my job and I try to do it well, but I'm not a fan."

I've been amazed at the number of boxers who could GAF less who the other boxers in their division are and don't want to watch Boxing on TV. They run religiously and train diligently, but once they leave the gym Boxing doesn't exist.. That wasn't Archie Moore.. He loved Boxing..

In the dream, did Denny Moyer say anything else?

[Ambling Alp II]

[Kalan]

Marciano took 9 rounds to stop Don Cockell... It took feather punching Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade only 4 rounds to hammer Cockell out -- and even Middleweight Randy Turpin knocked the very punchable Cockell out.. Cockell was knocked out a bunch of times.

How many seconds would chubby little Cockell survive with Mike Tyson??? ... I figure maybe 30 ... And about 30 with Liston -- and he wouldn't survive past 5 rounds with Patterson.. I'm telling you the Heavyweights of the early 50's were the pits... You can't compare it to any other era for lack of talent.

[HomicideHenry]

Marciano took 9 rounds to stop Don Cockell... It took feather punching Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade only 4 rounds to hammer Cockell out -- and even Middleweight Randy Turpin knocked the very punchable Cockell out.. Cockell was knocked out a bunch of times.

How many seconds would chubby little Cockell survive with Mike Tyson??? ... I figure maybe 30 ... And about 30 with Liston -- and he wouldn't survive past 5 rounds with Patterson.. I'm telling you the Heavyweights of the early 50's were the pits... You can't compare it to any other era for lack of talent.

Out of 81 fights Cockell was only stopped in 9 of them. He went 11 rounds with Turpin, when he was at the peak of his powers before challenging SRR, and that's no disgrace. Cockell is certainly not the bum you make him out to be, considering he defeated guys like Tommy Farr, Freddie Beshore, Kid Matthews, Roland LaStarza, Lloyd Marshall, etc. Pretty impressive for a man with thyroid issues who ballooned up in weight and still managed to maintain good speed and skills against physically superior opponents.

That being said... He was the only man Marciano defended the title against who wasn't rated #1 in the world... Cockell was rated #2... As a consequence, Marciano for the first time in his career hardly trained at all... Al Weil told Marciano the Englishman was nothing, etc and that it'd be the easiest money Marciano would ever make.

Cockell's speed and determination completely caught Marciano off guard, as he was expecting a fat ass with no speed and mediocre skills. He didn't train for this... But even at that... Marciano beat Cockell from pillar to post by round four, and it's rather miraculous that Cockell made it into round nine especially when you consider Marciano poleaxed him with a forearm smash in round eight that knocked Cockell flat on his face.

The Englishman probably took more punishment than any other opponent the Rock ever had outside of Carmine Vingo and Lee Savold. And that was from a Marciano who was completely uninterested in Cockell. The fact Marciano would bludgeon Moore in devestating fashion in his next outing, shows the difference between a motivated Rocky and a lazy one. Still, victorious.