So who is the elite HW division level?

[IronFrost]

I hear that Deontay Wilder can not compete against "elite" level heavyweights.

But most of you guys pick him against guys like Luis Ortiz or Joe Parker who are both top 5 heavyweights on my list.

So who is better than those guys?

I know Anthony Joshua and next who hmmm?

Maybe Alexander Povetkin who would most likely lose even against Usyk. I think he is not super heavyweight who would defeat those guys i've named.


Pulev is not so dangerous in my opinion. Parker smokes him so does Ortiz.



So who are those elite heavyweights? Lucas Browne? HAMMER? Prime David Price?

[dagilechia]

actual HW elite in my opinion (excluding retired fighters like Klitschko and Fury):
1st tier
Anthony Joshua
2nd tier
Alexander Povetkin
Deontay Wilder
2nd/3rd tier
Luis Ortiz
3rd tier
Joseph Parker
Kubrat Pulev

any not mentioned fighter winning against any of the fighters mentioned above is a surprise at the moment.

[marvelous marv]

Wilder beats Joshua in my opinion.

[crusader]

AJ can match Wilder for handspeed and power (at least in terms of their ability to hurt each other), and his technique is far tighter and I think he'd get to Wilder first and stop him in the first half. That said, Wilder clearly has better stamina IMO, and I think he'd be a real threat if AJ goes through another exhausted spell, which isn't exactly far-fetched considering how easily Joshua gassed against Wlad. If that happens, IMO AJ would have to survive against more pressure than Wlad put him under.

Don't get me wrong, Wilder's power would make him a danger from the start, but I think it's mainly a puncher's chance unless AJ gasses. My opinion could change after the Ortiz fight...

[Ossyrules]

Wilder beats Joshua in my opinion.

Wilder can beat anyone, but the way he fights is made for Joshua's straight punching and speedy punches in bunches

[dagilechia]

Wilder having puncher chances but still it's like 80/20 AJ fight for me. Joshua got a proved good chin, took some trendemous punches in Klitschko fight and survived (I believe that Wlad hits harder than Wilder) better overral skills, better workrate, Wilder is pretty open in defence, starts fights slowly, AJ from the first round is in there usually, also Joshua have advantage in physical power I am also not really certain about Wilder's chin resistance abilities. I don't want to say that Wilder is a poo fighter but AJ has it all to win this fight.

[Ossyrules]

Joshua is the only guy who really fights at an elite standard. And he is still pretty raw and could improve a lot to be truly elite.

The rest (excluding Wlad) may well be belt holders or highly ranked, but this probably highlights a shallow division over elite status

[KiwiRider]

A+
Anthony Joshua
A
Detonay Wilder
Alexander Povitkin
Luis Ortiz
B
Kubrat Pulev
Lucas Browne
Joseph Parker
Dillion Whyte
Christian Hammer
C
The rest of the Boxrec top 12 excluding Martin who is a C-

[candyslim]

I agree that Wilder has a chance of beating anyone except for the real King Kong (no I don't mean Luis Ortiz, I mean the real King Kong ) but I would favour Joshua in at fight between them. As has been said they both have the power to knock out the other, but AJ's superior technique, straighter punching, and better defence makes him odds on to land first with the heavy ordnance. I've said on a few occasions, pre AJ/Wlad, that I can envisage this being a repeat of the Joshua v Martin fight, with Deontay sat on his skinny arse with a bewildered 'WTF was that?' look on his face.

Much has been said about Joshua's gassing out in rounds 5 and 6 of the Klitschko fight, but as I said at the time, and I recently heard one of the more respected you-tubers say the same thing, namely that it may have been more to do with the occasion. He looked relaxed enough but a mega-fight in front of 90,000 and the eyes of the world on you, you wouldn't be human if you were not affected in any way. I don't suppose there are many of us that don't know from experience that nothing drains you of energy quite like high tension. Nervous exhaustion they call it. I'll stick my neck out and say I think stamina is not likely to be a major issue for Joshua in the future.

Back to the question ,we should finally get confirmation that Wilder is elite level in six weeks or so. Other elite level fighters are AJ, Ortiz maybe Parker, maybe Pulev, I suspect Povetkin no longer is but definitely was, either naturally or otherwise. That's about it but there are some impressive recent additions from the amateur ranks that I expect to swell the number before long (Hrgovic, Teslenko, Sirenko, Dubois, Yoka, Dychko just to name a few candidates)

[candyslim]

That's a fine assessment Kiwi except I don't entirely share your disdain for Charles Martin. He may walk this Earth like a dickhead but I do think too much was made of his disappointing show against AJ. I'm not saying Martin is anywhere near elite level don't get me wrong, but I do think being left in a heap by Joshua is no disgrace as it will happen (and already has) to a lot better fighters than him.

[Stuarty]

AJ, Fury (pending), Wilder, Povetkin (tarnished somewhat because of juicing), Ortiz, Parker and possibly Hughie Fury depending on how the Parker fight goes. There's a few guys obviously on the fringe but the guys mentioned are the ones we need to see fight one another.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Joshua

[ValMar]

Joshua

Saad, you are right, unfortunately.

[KiwiRider]

That's a fine assessment Kiwi except I don't entirely share your disdain for Charles Martin. He may walk this Earth like a dickhead but I do think too much was made of his disappointing show against AJ. I'm not saying Martin is anywhere near elite level don't get me wrong, but I do think being left in a heap by Joshua is no disgrace as it will happen (and already has) to a lot better fighters than him.

OK, let's put the AJ fight aside;
Did you see his last two fights?
Or the Love fight?
Those are the only ones I have seen, so maybe I'm missing something. I see him losing against nearly all of the top ten including Klownwhackkie and possibly Hammer as well. Hence the C- score.

[Kalan]

Wilder beats Joshua in my opinion.

Nope!!! ... Wilder is a good boxer and puncher with a lot of experience.. But Joshua is a better boxer and puncher.. He doesn't have the rounds Wilder has, but you can't tell that to his feet, his jab and his right counter.. His left hook is starting to come around now too...and his combinations and body attack..

I don't think Pulev will lend anything to Joshua's game -- but it's another multi-million dollar training camp.. Those kind of camps kept Klitschko on top for 11 years.. If you're on the right side of 38, every time you go through one of those camps you pick up new skills that adds to your game.. Joshua's a really quick study compared to Klitschko.. Wlad always complained that he wasn't a natural boxer like his brother.. He had to work his ass off to get anywhere.. AJ has the talent -- but he has that same work ethic.. Wilder??? He's a gym rat too, but he's not as smart. He picked both Whyte and Klitschko to beat Joshua.

[HomicideHenry]

Because they all are the same. Larry Holmes had the same problem in the 80s when reporters asked "Why not fight Coetzee? Page? Dokes?", and he said (along these lines) "Put their names in a hat, shake it up, and pick one. They're all the same. It makes no difference. You fight one, you've fought them all."

Only Wilder, Ortiz and Joshua stand out. And that's really not by much at all. I have more respect for Wilder facing Ortiz than Joshua facing Pulev. At least that's two of the top three battling it out for supremacy.

But the rest of the division? Dope heads like Povetkin and Browne, and blown up cruiserweights. If Tyson Fury came back, I have little doubt he'd defeat alot of the field just on size alone. I'd argue that Parker is maybe better than people give him credit for, but he's also the champion with the weakest resume.

[Oiky]

Well, in this current state, got to be Joshua hasn't it

[KiwiRider]

. I'd argue that Parker is maybe better than people give him credit for, but he's also the champion with the weakest resume.

His resume is pretty weak, granted.
But is Wilder's best opponent better than Takem and Ruiez Jr? Maybe? Not far off?
Close?
Yeah, OK it is fairly weak, but it's not a gay night club's worth of bums is it?

[FastestHandsInThewest]

Anthony Joshua is elite.

[asdfjkl]

AJ, Fury and Klitschko in shape would still beat him, Povetkin would have as well in his prime, I think Ortiz will also win, Hughie and Parker probably as well. I also wouldn't be surprised if Jun Long Zhang would win, just like many other talents.

[candyslim]

@Kiwi : I've watched all the available footage of Martin on you-tube. He can look pretty raw and that's as kind as I know how to put it, but he's a big guy who has decent power and I always had hopes for him after he retired Joey Dawejko in 4. Dawejko is just a journeyman but he's tough as the proverbial two dollar steak. He also stopped Alex Flores in four when Flores was a 14 and 0 prospect, so he has got some semblance of talent. I'd certainly fancy him to beat some of the dross that appears in the the rankings of some governing bodies e.g. Fujimoto, Charr, etc.

Only Wilder, Ortiz and Joshua stand out. And that's really not by much at all. I have more respect for Wilder facing Ortiz than Joshua facing Pulev. At least that's two of the top three battling it out for supremacy.

Be fair Hank. You want Joshua to take on Klitschko, Ortiz, and Wilder one after the other? How about after that - a voluntary defence against his old rival Lex Luthor ?

@Asdfjkl : What is it with your obsession with "The Dragon King"? The guy is already 35. He's been a pro for 5 years and his best wins are over Jason Gavern, Swawn Cox, and (the senior of the two heavies called) George Arias. None of them any more than journeymen and at least two of them way past their best. This year he's had three wins by knockout over opponents whose names seem only vaguely familiar to me. For a man of 35, he doesn't seem in any hurry to test himself - I can't take him seriously.

[IronFrost]

AJ, Fury and Klitschko in shape would still beat him, Povetkin would have as well in his prime, I think Ortiz will also win, Hughie and Parker probably as well. I also wouldn't be surprised if Jun Long Zhang would win, just like many other talents.

Both Fury's would get ktfo from Wilder. Fury's win is overrated. Wladimir fought like a pussy who was scared. Fury is not so good as you people think based on that one win.

[ValMar]

A+ (active) : Joshua
A+ (retired) : Klitschko, Fury
A Wilder, Ortiz
beyond categorisation : Povetkin, Haye
A- Parker, Pulev, Whyte
A-? Miller, Breazeale, H. Fury, Stiverne

[Loki]

A+ (active) : Joshua
A+ (retired) : Klitschko, Fury
A Wilder, Ortiz
beyond categorisation : Povetkin, Haye
A- Parker, Pulev, Whyte
A-? Miller, Breazeale, H. Fury, Stiverne

What does 'Beyond Categorisation' mean? Povetkin, excluding the PEDs is surely better than Wilder. Who knows what Haye has left....

[Loki]

AJ, Fury and Klitschko in shape would still beat him, Povetkin would have as well in his prime, I think Ortiz will also win, Hughie and Parker probably as well. I also wouldn't be surprised if Jun Long Zhang would win, just like many other talents.

Both Fury's would get ktfo from Wilder. Fury's win is overrated. Wladimir fought like a pussy who was scared. Fury is not so good as you people think based on that one win.

I'm sure Wilder beats Hughie, but depending on how Tyson returns - at his near best, he boxes Wilders ears off.

I agree, I would've beaten Wlad that night - he didn't throw a punch for some reason; obviously something was wrong.

BTW, did you mis-spell your Username?