Who was the most skilled heavyweight ever?

[BitPlayer]

Most Heavyweight Champions had gaping holes... There were no Lomachenko's in that division -- the best defensive boxers were Johnson, Tunney, Holmes, Vitali, and Joshua... They're the top 5 defensively... They were all difficult to hit with about anything.... If they were hit real good they made adjustments on the fly and generally came back to win.... Right behind them were Lewis and a Steward retooled Wladimir -- both very hard to reach for just about any challenger.

Maybe Americans do underestimate the recent scene because of a lack of U.S. fighters. You ever think though Europeans massively overrate it because the fighters are European? Most Americans hate it because post Lewis its been dreadful. Putting Joshua and Vitali amongst the best defensively......

Wait until you find out he's taking about Kevin Johnson, not Jack Johnson.

[MrGuy]

Maybe Americans do underestimate the recent scene because of a lack of U.S. fighters. You ever think though Europeans massively overrate it because the fighters are European? Most Americans hate it because post Lewis its been dreadful. Putting Joshua and Vitali amongst the best defensively......

What a dumbass post.



There is NOTHING for Europeans to over rate, since 1999 the Heavyweight division has been dominated by Non Muricans. End of chat.

The scene has been dreadful post Lewis. To think its been anything but is sheer fanboyism.

[Cojimar 1946]

Well these days we don't have the linear title falling into the hands of guys like Leon Spinks or an ancient Foreman who had been schooled by Tommy Morrison. I think that shows progress.

[Tomasino]

Most Heavyweight Champions had gaping holes... There were no Lomachenko's in that division -- the best defensive boxers were Johnson, Tunney, Holmes, Vitali, and Joshua... They're the top 5 defensively... They were all difficult to hit with about anything.... If they were hit real good they made adjustments on the fly and generally came back to win.... Right behind them were Lewis and a Steward retooled Wladimir -- both very hard to reach for just about any challenger.

Maybe Americans do underestimate the recent scene because of a lack of U.S. fighters. You ever think though Europeans massively overrate it because the fighters are European? Most Americans hate it because post Lewis its been dreadful. Putting Joshua and Vitali amongst the best defensively......

Wait until you find out he's taking about Kevin Johnson, not Jack Johnson.

[MrGuy]

What a dumbass post.



There is NOTHING for Europeans to over rate, since 1999 the Heavyweight division has been dominated by Non Muricans. End of chat.

The scene has been dreadful post Lewis. To think its been anything but is sheer fanboyism.

How does the fact that every Murican to challenge either K2 brother for their respective versions of world tiles post Lewis failed miserably, equate to the scene being " dreadful?" Is it perhaps that the 2 that beat Vladimir were also European?

Fury and Joshua beat him when he was ready to get his retirement check. 2 of 3 that beat him when he was a real fighter, were from the States.

[MrGuy]

How does the fact that every Murican to challenge either K2 brother for their respective versions of world tiles post Lewis failed miserably, equate to the scene being " dreadful?" Is it perhaps that the 2 that beat Vladimir were also European?

Fury and Joshua beat him when he was ready to get his retirement check. 2 of 3 that beat him when he was a real fighter, were from the States.

Trying to move the goal posts again when caught out are you? You claimed the scene was dreadful POST Lewis who announced his retirement in 2004, W. K. didn't win his title until 2006, and NO Murican beat him until he retired. Your opinion of his ability by the time he lost to Fury is meaningless.

It was dreadful post Lewis. It doesn't matter Wlad didn't win his title until two years later. That's entirely irrelevant to the situation. Dreadful during those few years, and during Wlads reign. It doesn't matter he didn't lose to an American after winning the title. What does is the fact he got starched by two forgettable ones. He was shot for Fury. What you think Fury is an ATG?

[MrGuy]

Trying to move the goal posts again when caught out are you? You claimed the scene was dreadful POST Lewis who announced his retirement in 2004, W. K. didn't win his title until 2006, and NO Murican beat him until he retired. Your opinion of his ability by the time he lost to Fury is meaningless.

It was dreadful post Lewis. It doesn't matter Wlad didn't win his title until two years later. That's entirely irrelevant to the situation. Dreadful during those few years, and during Wlads reign. It doesn't matter he didn't lose to an American after winning the title. What does is the fact he got starched by two forgettable ones. He was shot for Fury. What you think Fury is an ATG?

How many bullsh,it lies can you actually make up, or are you simply half witted?

1. Lewis " officially "retired in February 2004.

2. Brewster beat W. K. in April 2004.

3. W. K. beat Brewster in July 2007. ( as the reigning I.B.F. champion )

4. You claimed 2 scabby Muricans " starched " Wladimir post Lewis.

5. Who the fuk are they?

I didnt dispute the top 3. I said it was bad during that gap, and after he won it. Didn't say he got starched by anyone from the States after he won the title. Said he got starched by them when he was good. Good as in he didn't have the title, but really came to fight guys. Not the title winning guy that rode his opponents around the ring.

[MrGuy]

How many bullsh,it lies can you actually make up, or are you simply half witted?

1. Lewis " officially "retired in February 2004.

2. Brewster beat W. K. in April 2004.

3. W. K. beat Brewster in July 2007. ( as the reigning I.B.F. champion )

4. You claimed 2 scabby Muricans " starched " Wladimir post Lewis.

5. Who the fuk are they?

I didnt dispute the top 3. I said it was bad during that gap, and after he won it. Didn't say he got starched by anyone from the States after he won the title. Said he got starched by them when he was good. Good as in he didn't have the title, but really came to fight guys. Not the title winning guy that rode his opponents around the ring.

You are back tracking yet again.

Your exact words were.

Maybe Americans do underestimate the recent scene because of a lack of U.S. fighters. You ever think though Europeans massively overrate it because the fighters are European? Most Americans hate it because post Lewis its been dreadful.

So for the second time.

What is there for Europeans to over rate? The FACTS are since Lewis retired, ( and during his reign ) the Heavyweight division has been dominated by European fighters. Therefore by definition it is IMPOSSIBLE for Europeans to OVER RATE the Heavyweight scene.

You seem to be going out of your way to decry NON MURICAN Heavyweight fighters because in the main they can handle Murican ones as though they are mere sparring partners. The reality is your fighters were alway grossly over rated, and it was solely down to politics that Eastern European fighters in particular weren't able to expose them decades ago.

I suspect you really are simple enough to believe Murica's almost clean sweep in boxing at the Los Angeles olympics had nothing to do with the Eastern European boycott of those games.

You make no sense jumping from one thing to another. Lack of Americans on a European dominated scene, in no way means Europeans cant overrate it.

[tennessee]

Jersey Joe, Ali, Wlad.

[MrGuy]

You make no sense jumping from one thing to another. Lack of Americans on a European dominated scene, in no way means Europeans cant overrate it.

Is your mother actually your sister by any chance? I only ask because in the history of the WRITTEN English word, nothing is more fukking stupid than the words below.

Lack of Americans on a European dominated scene, in no way means Europeans cant overrate it.

Which YOU wrote.

Please do NOT convince yourself that I, or any other NON Murican needs or desires lessons in OUR language from the insignificant likes of you. We don't.

You think Europeans cant overrate the scene, because its European dominated. That makes no sense.

[MrGuy]

How many bullsh,it lies can you actually make up, or are you simply half witted?

1. Lewis " officially "retired in February 2004.

2. Brewster beat W. K. in April 2004.

3. W. K. beat Brewster in July 2007. ( as the reigning I.B.F. champion )

4. You claimed 2 scabby Muricans " starched " Wladimir post Lewis.

5. Who the fuk are they?

I didnt dispute the top 3. I said it was bad during that gap, and after he won it. Didn't say he got starched by anyone from the States after he won the title. Said he got starched by them when he was good. Good as in he didn't have the title, but really came to fight guys. Not the title winning guy that rode his opponents around the ring.

You are back tracking yet again.

Your exact words were.

Maybe Americans do underestimate the recent scene because of a lack of U.S. fighters. You ever think though Europeans massively overrate it because the fighters are European? Most Americans hate it because post Lewis its been dreadful.

So for the second time.

What is there for Europeans to over rate? The FACTS are since Lewis retired, ( and during his reign ) the Heavyweight division has been dominated by European fighters. Therefore by definition it is IMPOSSIBLE for Europeans to OVER RATE the Heavyweight scene.

You seem to be going out of your way to decry NON MURICAN Heavyweight fighters because in the main they can handle Murican ones as though they are mere sparring partners. The reality is your fighters were alway grossly over rated, and it was solely down to politics that Eastern European fighters in particular weren't able to expose them decades ago.

I suspect you really are simple enough to believe Murica's almost clean sweep in boxing at the Los Angeles olympics had nothing to do with the Eastern European boycott of those games.

Outside of the Klitschko's name all those great Eastern European heavies? Name all the guys then and now that would've owned Ali, Holmes, or Foreman. You know nothing of the fighters I favor. As far as European fighters in general you do seem to think one pointing out the deficincies of Wlad or those of Lewis, means one hates the entire scene.

[MrGuy]

Is your mother actually your sister by any chance? I only ask because in the history of the WRITTEN English word, nothing is more fukking stupid than the words below.




Which YOU wrote.

Please do NOT convince yourself that I, or any other NON Murican needs or desires lessons in OUR language from the insignificant likes of you. We don't.

You think Europeans cant overrate the scene, because its European dominated. That makes no sense.

It makes no sense to idiots like YOU. That doesn't mean it makes no sense.

According to most people Australia is the biggest ISLAND on earth. If Australian folks like to remind everyone of that FACT it doesn't detract from the reality of that claim. Therefore Australian people can NOT, OVER RATE that claim. It is simply TRUE. much like it simply TRUE that Murican Heavyweights are SH,IT in comparison to European Heavyweights over the last 20 years.
[/quote

[MrGuy]

Outside of the Klitschko's name all those great Eastern European heavies? Name all the guys then and now that would've owned Ali, Holmes, or Foreman. You know nothing of the fighters I favor. As far as European fighters in general you do seem to think one pointing out the deficincies or those of Lewis, means one hates the entire scene

I don't give a fuk about your scabby Murican opinions or your nationalistic verminous chest thumping filth.

Your original incestuous claim was that Heavyweight boxing was over rated by Europeans, because they ( Europeans ) have dominated that division since the late 90's. I am TELLING you that is not only impossible, it is by its very nature a contradiction in terms.

Get it into your thick skill, Murican interpretations of a human beings language ( in this case ENGLISH ) is much like you, your country, and your people. Worthless.

Less than 20. Name all those great heavies outside of the Klitschko's. Your reply on overrated makes no sense. Because one group dominates over another, doesnt mean the dominant group cant be overrated. Stick to boxing. Ask short questions. Not ones that require lengthy replies.

[MrGuy]

I don't give a fuk about your scabby Murican opinions or your nationalistic verminous chest thumping filth.

Your original incestuous claim was that Heavyweight boxing was over rated by Europeans, because they ( Europeans ) have dominated that division since the late 90's. I am TELLING you that is not only impossible, it is by its very nature a contradiction in terms.

Get it into your thick skill, Murican interpretations of a human beings language ( in this case ENGLISH ) is much like you, your country, and your people. Worthless.

Less than 20. Name all those great heavies outside of the Klitschko's. Your reply on overrated makes no sense. Because one group dominates over another, doesnt mean the dominant group cant be overrated. Stick to boxing. Ask short questions. Not ones that require lengthy replies.

Go get yourself a children's comic. Then ask your next door neighbour to be kind enough to read it to you and explain what the pictures mean, you idiot.

I don't give a fukk, about your subhuman Murican statistics, or filthy excuses. NAME the WBC, WBA, IBF, Heavyweight Champions, since 1999, and how long they held the titles.

DO NOT be a dirty filthy LYING Murican, just post the FACTS & STATS.

I am even GIVING you 4 years ( since Lewis ) you cretinous creep.

You claimed dominated for 20. Lewis was the champ then the Klitschko's. The champ being European doesn't mean the entire division was dominated Europeans. That didnt happen until around 2006-2007 I believe. Move along.

[marco855]

The most skilled small heavyweight was James Toney. Although not really a heavyweight, his skills at all levels were damn near incomparable. I have him in the top 15 or 20 GOAT. Toney had no real weaknesses, and ranks at or near the top in several all-time best categories,...including defense, late round KO'S, most fights per year while champion ( modern era ), and others. At one point in his career, at age 38,.....he was 70-4 fighting at MW,... SMW,...LHW,....and at HW. He fought until recently at 47 or 48, winning more then half of his fights between the ages of 38 to 48.
One of the toughest accomplishments in boxing is late round KO'S. I apologize for forgetting the exact number ( I did count them more then once),....but approximately speaking he had 15 KO's in the last half of a fight. He had about 8 or 9 after the 9th round, and 5 or 6 in the last 2 rounds. Most guys, even the top fighters, have only 1 or 2,.....many guys have none.
If you can't stop a guy when you have energy early in a fight, how much more difficult when you're energy is zapped? That's the issue; which fighter can suck it up, against top caliber opponents, and stop them when they're very exhausted? Toney stopped quite a few, not the least of which was Michael Nunn, a MW champion who was undefeated, thought to be unbeatable at the time and who was a healthy betting favorite in the fight. Though he didn't stop Jirov, he knocked him down with seconds remaining in the fight, Jirov barely getting to his feet as the final bell rang( a great fight, take a look )

[MrGuy]

Well done. you have managed to prove you are even thicker than Kolon Lewis first regained his WBC title in 1997, lost it for 7 months in 2001, then kept it until he retired in 2003. He was followed by Vitali who had almost 4 years off due to injuries, during which time it was held by a Russian, then an African until he regained it in 2008 and kept it until he retired in 2012.

Similarly the IBF title has been in European hands since 1999 except for 3 years when some token Murican had it. As is the case with the WBA title, some token Muricans held it for 3 years and apart from that it has been in predominantly European hands.

The operative word there being predominantly. Try looking it up.

Once again another useless tirade. You said dominated by Europeans since 1999. The champ being non-American, in no way means the division was being dominated by Europeans. Most year end rankings up to around 2006 had half if not most of the top ten guys being from the U.S. Lewis wasn't even British.

[MrGuy]

Well done. you have managed to prove you are even thicker than Kolon Lewis first regained his WBC title in 1997, lost it for 7 months in 2001, then kept it until he retired in 2003. He was followed by Vitali who had almost 4 years off due to injuries, during which time it was held by a Russian, then an African until he regained it in 2008 and kept it until he retired in 2012.

Similarly the IBF title has been in European hands since 1999 except for 3 years when some token Murican had it. As is the case with the WBA title, some token Muricans held it for 3 years and apart from that it has been in predominantly European hands.

The operative word there being predominantly. Try looking it up.

Once again another useless tirade. You said dominated by Europeans since 1999. The champ being non-American, in no way means the division was being dominated by Europeans. Most year end rankings up to around 2006 had half if not most of the top ten guys being from the U.S. Lewis wasn't even British.

Jesus Christ you really are as thick as sh,it.

DOMINATE.

be the most important or conspicuous person or thing in.


have a commanding position over; overlook.

Spare me any nonsensical Murican definition of an English language word as I am totally uninterested.


Lewis was born on 2 September 1965, in London, England to parents born in Jamaica.

He is entitled to hold 3 passports. British, Canadian, and Jamaican. Seeing as the last 2 countries were indeed part of the British Commonwealth when he was born, and living in Canada, and probably still are, there seems to be no point in your silly claim.

Try again.

Yet you dont acknowledge during the time frame in question, the scene wasn't dominated by Europeans. You weren't referencing Lewis dominating, rather European heavyweights.

[MrGuy]

[

Jesus Christ you really are as thick as sh,it.

DOMINATE.

be the most important or conspicuous person or thing in.


have a commanding position over; overlook.

Spare me any nonsensical Murican definition of an English language word as I am totally uninterested.


Lewis was born on 2 September 1965, in London, England to parents born in Jamaica.

He is entitled to hold 3 passports. British, Canadian, and Jamaican. Seeing as the last 2 countries were indeed part of the British Commonwealth when he was born, and living in Canada, and probably still are, there seems to be no point in your silly claim.

Try again.

Yet you dont acknowledge during the time frame in question, the scene wasn't dominated by Europeans. You weren't referencing Lewis dominating, rather European heavyweights.

If you are too thick to understand the meaning of the word dominate shown above, that is your problem, not mine. Then again you are Murican, so it is highly likely that is the case.

So apart from the moon is made of cheese, or there really is a father christmas, have you got any more claims to make as stupid as," Lewis is NOT British "?

You said the heavyweight scene had been dominated by Europeans for the past 15-20 years. You didnt claim certain individuals held the title of European descent. You claimed the division overall had been. The word is understood. Nobody cares. The guy claimed has was from whatever country he felt he could make the most cash.

[MrGuy]

You said the heavyweight scene had been dominated by Europeans for the past 15-20 years. You didnt claim certain individuals held the title of European descent. You claimed the division overall had been. The word is understood. Nobody cares. The guy claimed has was from whatever country he felt he could make the most cash.

So the reason for your idiocy is down to syntax?

As has been stated the Heavyweight scene has been dominated by Europeans for the last 20 years. Each one of them and the length of their reign at the top and the governing body's title they held shouldn't need to be explained to anyone who knows anything at all about the game, or truly understands the meaning of the word dominate.

Then again in your case,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Like the way you wriggle and squirm trying to back out of your imbecilic claim Lewis wasn't British. Out of interest, how does being an amatuer in Canada help him make the most cash? At least TRY to get your facts right if you are intent on slagging a guy off the way you do with Lewis. It was his mother Violet who left London for financial reasons, because nurses in Canada were paid more than nurses in England. Hence she moved to Kitchener with 12 year old Lennox leaving her eldest son, and the rest of her family behind.

It has already been explained to you that the lowlife " names " of Murican boxing had approached him after his olympic gold, offering far more than Frank Maloney. He told them all to go fukk themselves. Try using that lump of grey matter between your ears and work out why?

It was also explained you weren't referring to the title holders, but the division overall. The division having a European champ, doesn't mean the entire division is being dominated by Europeans.

[MrGuy]

So the reason for your idiocy is down to syntax?

As has been stated the Heavyweight scene has been dominated by Europeans for the last 20 years. Each one of them and the length of their reign at the top and the governing body's title they held shouldn't need to be explained to anyone who knows anything at all about the game, or truly understands the meaning of the word dominate.

Then again in your case,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Like the way you wriggle and squirm trying to back out of your imbecilic claim Lewis wasn't British. Out of interest, how does being an amatuer in Canada help him make the most cash? At least TRY to get your facts right if you are intent on slagging a guy off the way you do with Lewis. It was his mother Violet who left London for financial reasons, because nurses in Canada were paid more than nurses in England. Hence she moved to Kitchener with 12 year old Lennox leaving her eldest son, and the rest of her family behind.

It has already been explained to you that the lowlife " names " of Murican boxing had approached him after his olympic gold, offering far more than Frank Maloney. He told them all to go fukk themselves. Try using that lump of grey matter between your ears and work out why?

It was also explained you weren't referring to the title holders, but the division overall. The division having a European champ, doesn't mean the entire division is being dominated by Europeans.

WRONG AGAIN, stoopid.

I RIGHTLY said that the Heavyweight division has been dominated by European fighters for the last 20 years. Which it has.

I never mentioned the word " overall " in any way shape or form. That is just you squirming like a dog because yet AGAIN you have been proven WRONG.

However you did write in reply to another poster that you " hated Lewis " Perhaps that is why you invent moronic inbred garbage about the guy and his opponents when you have less than no idea about the man.

Whereas I can say without fear of contradiction that Tyson is subhuman rapist slime, because he ACTUALLY is.

The champ being European, doesn't mean they're the dominant group in the division. 20 years? Doesn't matter if overall was used or not. Again you're incorrect. That "dominance" didn't occur until around 2006.

[MrGuy]

WRONG AGAIN, stoopid.

I RIGHTLY said that the Heavyweight division has been dominated by European fighters for the last 20 years. Which it has.

I never mentioned the word " overall " in any way shape or form. That is just you squirming like a dog because yet AGAIN you have been proven WRONG.

However you did write in reply to another poster that you " hated Lewis " Perhaps that is why you invent moronic inbred garbage about the guy and his opponents when you have less than no idea about the man.

Whereas I can say without fear of contradiction that Tyson is subhuman rapist slime, because he ACTUALLY is.

The champ being European, doesn't mean they're the dominant group in the division. 20 years? Doesn't matter if overall was used or not. Again you're incorrect. That "dominance" didn't occur until around 2006.

You can dress a pig in a suit, but you can't stop it grunting, as is the case with you. The dominant fighter in any division is the champion. For the last 20 years the champions in the Heavyweight division have been predominantly ( there is that difficult word again ) European, holding the titles of the WBC, WBA, IBF, and the WBO, more often than not.

Your opinion on the matter is of no consequence to me at all. The facts and statistics speak for themselves.

Again it simply isn't my problem if the grey matter between your ears is unable to comprehend the meaning of the words " dominant " or " dominate. "

The dominant fighter being the champ, in no way means the division is dominated by fighters from that part of the world. You know what you meant.. Once again you're wrong. Grow up and post something semi-intelligent.

[MrGuy]

You can dress a pig in a suit, but you can't stop it grunting, as is the case with you. The dominant fighter in any division is the champion. For the last 20 years the champions in the Heavyweight division have been predominantly ( there is that difficult word again ) European, holding the titles of the WBC, WBA, IBF, and the WBO, more often than not.

Your opinion on the matter is of no consequence to me at all. The facts and statistics speak for themselves.

Again it simply isn't my problem if the grey matter between your ears is unable to comprehend the meaning of the words " dominant " or " dominate. "

The dominant fighter being the champ, in no way means the division is dominated by fighters from that part of the world. You know what you meant.. Once again you're wrong. Grow up and post something semi-intelligent.

Stop squirming like a maggot you fool. You spoke out of your ass, trying to invent garbage that I never mentioned like " overall " and " groups. "

You are a moron who is too stupid to even know he is stupid. I have told you before I have no interest in scabby Murican interpretations of ENGLISH words. Any WORLD CHAMPION is by definition dominant, no matter what sport or game he participates in. Anyone below him is merely an also ran.

According to your perverted logic I can tell any dumbass Murican who tries to tell me Edwin Moses was the dominant 400 metre hurdler for 9 years and 9 months they are talking sh,it.

Idiot.

The champ is dominant. However that in no way means the entire division is dominated by his kind. You were wrong again. Move on and pretend to be intelligent.

[BoxBuzz]

Golden Toastie is so disparaging of North America, and patronizing of Europe, I'm beginning to think he's a continentist.


It's offensive that he shows his incontinence toward all of us here in N.A.

[Stuarty]

I'm not much of a historian but I always try and learn more everyday. As far as skilled big men go then you're not gonna get better than Ali are you? Can stand here all day and argue this and that but skill wise Ali was second to none. He created his own style and skill!

[BoxBuzz]

I think that's a fair assessement, But you could argue that Holmes or Charles were more skilled.

What Ali had was incredible talent and athleticism which allowed him to be sloppier than the more skilled fighters and still win.

The question is for some how much of his training and learned "skill" did Ali ignore in favor of his other dynamics. As he often chose to ignore his fundamentals.....and still win. His flaws have been well advertized, but some suspect it was that he constantly thought he could ignore the fundamentals and get away with it....and to a point he could, but he paid a price. Holmes learned the fundamentals and that was more his bible.....so in my opinion Holmes skills were more often on display.....as he just focused and "went to work". Ali seemed far more interested in "play" vs "work".


It's a good question.....but Holmes and Charles may have had him beat at least in their constant display of the fundamentals. Once a fighter thinks he's "too big" for the basics, it's hard to get them back in line.

Foreman is a good example of a guy who went back to work, and let his fascination with his natural "gifts" go in his second run, he then chose to focus on the fundamental skillset.

Naz is another guy of course from a different weight class, that was more talented than he was skilled. It seems to me that very few times do the fighters who are the most talented find a way to discipline themselves to just going after the pure craft skills. Holmes was a good example of a combination...but he leaned to the skill side, and surely did not have the natural talent of Ali.