Ken Norton's legacy?

[oogiebe]

Norton's defense was a lot more effective than you give him credit for. It was so effective, in fact, that nonother than George Foreman adopted a very similar "cross-armed" approach in his comeback.
It's not the sort of thing that one would normally teach to a young beginner new to the sport, because, yes, it can leave a fighter vulnerable if not used properly. But, when used by men like Archie Moore, Norton & later, Foreman it could be quite effective.
Yes, the occasional big puncher like Foreman, Shavers & Cooney could exploit it, but those men are few & far between. While, on the other hand, it was a style that could very much trouble skilled, top-flight boxers like Ali, Holmes & Jimmy Young.

Norton had an excellent jab that gave Ali, Holmes, Young & many, many others fits. No, it wasn't your classic, "rapier"-like jab, but it was stiff & he threw it in abundance.

As far as him being 0-3 in title fights, Norton's W15 over Jimmy Young was actually retroactively recognized as being for the vacant WBC heavyweight title. It was originally scheduled for 12 rounds, but then Jose Sulaiman sanctioned it for 15 rounds in case the winner of the Ali - Leon Spinks bout refused to fight the winner. Which proved to be the case. Therefore, the winner ( Norton ) was recognized as the 'BC's champ.

Nice! Norton was one of my favorite fighters in the 70's. I could not believe how he out jabbed Ali. Your points are well taken.

Thanks, oogiebe.
Norton was my first ever favorite fighter. I was 14 years old at the time & I'd just begun watching boxing & the Ali - Young televised card was just the second one that I ever watched. And, as you might recall, Norton opened up the telecast of that one by busting up & stopping Ron Stander in 5 rounds.
I can't recall what it was about him exactly, but something about the pre-fight feature & the bout itself turned me into an instant fan. After which I made sure to watch every single fight of his. From his 10th round stoppage of Larry Middleton in a tune-up for the eventual Ali rubber match right on through to his final, inglorious end at the Garden vs Cooney.
In fact, the very first boxing magazine that I ever purchased was a copy of THE RING with Norton & Ali on the cover building up their third fight. Years later, in 1991, I took that copy with me to Canastota, NY during the IBHOF weekend where I got to meet Norton for the first time & I had him sign it for me. It's one of my favorite pieces of boxing memorabilia in my collection.

Wow! What a great story! We're close in age and I too don't know the allure that brought me to Norton, but he was so well spoken and had that look of confidence in the ring during those earlier days. You should watch 'Facing Ali' if you haven't yet. You'd love the interviews and stories...Norton, Chuvalo, Cooper (hysterical), Shavers, Lyle...just fabulous.

[Kalan]

Norton's defense was a lot more effective than you give him credit for. It was so effective, in fact, that no nother than George Foreman adopted a very similar "cross-armed" approach in his comeback.
It's not the sort of thing that one would normally teach to a young beginner new to the sport, because, yes, it can leave a fighter vulnerable if not used properly. But, when used by men like Archie Moore, Norton & later, Foreman it could be quite effective.
Yes, the occasional big puncher like Foreman, Shavers & Cooney could exploit it, but those men are few & far between. While, on the other hand, it was a style that could very much trouble skilled, top-flight boxers like Ali, Holmes & Jimmy Young.

Moore was knocked down a record number of time for a World Champion...

Foreman failed on 2 comeback Title Fights (even Tommy Morrison beat him) before getting an unlikely shot at Michael Moorer... losing the fight all the way... and scoring a 1-punch KO which was the last KO (or knockdown) punch he ever threw... He actually switched back and forth on stances because Alex Stewart was killing him.

Norton was knocked out 4 times... I think they can all be attributed to his defense - or lack of it... But for Norton it might have been the best thing... He was so awkward trying to fight with a regular stance that the cross armed was a good fit... However the best defenders used and use a standup stance... Some don't use it very well, but that's a coaching factor.

[sweetviolenturge]

Nice! Norton was one of my favorite fighters in the 70's. I could not believe how he out jabbed Ali. Your points are well taken.

Thanks, oogiebe.
Norton was my first ever favorite fighter. I was 14 years old at the time & I'd just begun watching boxing & the Ali - Young televised card was just the second one that I ever watched. And, as you might recall, Norton opened up the telecast of that one by busting up & stopping Ron Stander in 5 rounds.
I can't recall what it was about him exactly, but something about the pre-fight feature & the bout itself turned me into an instant fan. After which I made sure to watch every single fight of his. From his 10th round stoppage of Larry Middleton in a tune-up for the eventual Ali rubber match right on through to his final, inglorious end at the Garden vs Cooney.
In fact, the very first boxing magazine that I ever purchased was a copy of THE RING with Norton & Ali on the cover building up their third fight. Years later, in 1991, I took that copy with me to Canastota, NY during the IBHOF weekend where I got to meet Norton for the first time & I had him sign it for me. It's one of my favorite pieces of boxing memorabilia in my collection.

Wow! What a great story! We're close in age and I too don't know the allure that brought me to Norton, but he was so well spoken and had that look of confidence in the ring during those earlier days. You should watch 'Facing Ali' if you haven't yet. You'd love the interviews and stories...Norton, Chuvalo, Cooper (hysterical), Shavers, Lyle...just fabulous.

I've seen it, pal. And, yes, it was excellent & highly entertaining.

[Sidney Carton]

When he beat Quarry it was a big deal. When he lost to Cooney everyone knew he was way past it.

LOL.

I like that.

Was fat, out of shape Quarry, who took the fight on short notice "past it" ?

[Sidney Carton]

Norton's defense was a lot more effective than you give him credit for.

Yeah, it worked great against Shavers and Foreman.

[Sidney Carton]

Ken Norton's "legacy" :

Glass chin and glass midsection.

[sweetviolenturge]

Of the Norton fights that I saw live back in the day ( of course, as a fan, I've gone back & watched all his bouts that are available on video & youtube as well, but I'll comment on those another time ), my favorites were his one round destruction of Duane Bobick, his W15 over Jimmy Young & of course, the Holmes thriller.
I was so new to the sport that his victory over Bobick was the first time that a favorite fighter of mine scored a first round knock out. Needless to say, I was thrilled by it. I'll never forget the sense of elation that I experienced. It was a seminal moment & to this day, each time that a favorite of mine scores a big KO win ( especially if it happens to be in the first round! ) it's like reliving that moment all over again.
Then, there was the Jimmy Young bout ( well, after a warm-up KO5 over Lorenzo Zanon ) . I was very nervous for that fight & recall how my then-15-year-old self was drenched in sweat during the later rounds of the tight contest. Not a lot of people remember it as such today, but it was a classic. But, it's overshadowed by the Holmes bout that followed. Which, was an all-time great fight. Among the 10 best heavyweight fights ever.

[sweetviolenturge]

Ken Norton's "legacy" :

Glass chin and glass midsection.

Norton didn't have a "glass chin".
Was a big puncher like Jose Luis Garcia & three all-time great bangers in Foreman, Shavers & Cooney able to drop & stop him? Sure. But, a fighter with a "glass chin" would have surely been stopped by fighters like Ali, Jimmy Young, Holmes, Quarry, Boone Kirkman & many others that Norton mixed with. But, they didn't do the trick because only the biggest of punchers that he fought were able to stop him.
And, "glass midsection"? Please. Name me the fights in which Norton was hurt by & finished by an opponent's body shots.

[Kalan]

Norton's defense was a lot more effective than you give him credit for.

Yeah, it worked great against Shavers and Foreman.

Great point... If you were big, tall, and powerful, and could throw hard with both hands -- you could get Norton out.

[Kalan]

And, "glass midsection"? Please. Name me the fights in which Norton was hurt by & finished by an opponent's body shots.

That isn't necessary... Cooney and Shavers softened Kenny up with body shots... Because he crossed his arms his ribs were exposed... Both fighters said his rib cage was open... If you're facing a really big, tall, powerful Heavyweight who can throw with both hands -- it's very difficult to hide your rib cage and right temple from brutal hooks underneath and hooks high on the head... if you lean in with your head and cross your arms like Norton did... There's a lot of big punchers.. Norton didn't face every big, tall guy who could punch real hard.

Ali wasn't a big hitter but he said of short Archie Moore.. "This was my easiest fight." ... Archie led with his head like Norton and had his arms crossed... Norton was able to keep Ali off because he was stronger and hit harder... But a big tough puncher who bulls in close and puts you on the ropes??? He's going to take you outta there pronto with that defense.

[sweetviolenturge]

And, "glass midsection"? Please. Name me the fights in which Norton was hurt by & finished by an opponent's body shots.

That isn't necessary... Cooney and Shavers softened Kenny up with body shots... Because he crossed his arms his ribs were exposed... Both fighters said his rib cage was open... If you're facing a really big, tall, powerful Heavyweight who can throw with both hands -- it's very difficult to hide your rib cage and right temple from brutal hooks underneath and hooks high on the head... if you lean in with your head and cross your arms like Norton did... There's a lot of big punchers.. Norton didn't face every big, tall guy who could punch real hard.

Ali wasn't a big hitter but he said of short Archie Moore.. "This was my easiest fight." ... Archie led with his head like Norton and had his arms crossed... Norton was able to keep Ali off because he was stronger and hit harder... But a big tough puncher who bulls in close and puts you on the ropes??? He's going to take you outta there pronto with that defense.

Kalan, contrary to popular belief, I'm not a proponent of the "cross-armed" defense/style. One of my all-time favorite fighters just happened to utilize it. That's all.
And, I'm not claiming that Norton didn't have his vulnerabilities. He most certainly did. But, I enjoyed following his career in spite of them.

[oogiebe]

Of the Norton fights that I saw live back in the day ( of course, as a fan, I've gone back & watched all his bouts that are available on video & youtube as well, but I'll comment on those another time ), my favorites were his one round destruction of Duane Bobick, his W15 over Jimmy Young & of course, the Holmes thriller.
I was so new to the sport that his victory over Bobick was the first time that a favorite fighter of mine scored a first round knock out. Needless to say, I was thrilled by it. I'll never forget the sense of elation that I experienced. It was a seminal moment & to this day, each time that a favorite of mine scores a big KO win ( especially if it happens to be in the first round! ) it's like reliving that moment all over again.
Then, there was the Jimmy Young bout ( well, after a warm-up KO5 over Lorenzo Zanon ) . I was very nervous for that fight & recall how my then-15-year-old self was drenched in sweat during the later rounds of the tight contest. Not a lot of people remember it as such today, but it was a classic. But, it's overshadowed by the Holmes bout that followed. Which, was an all-time great fight. Among the 10 best heavyweight fights ever.

That fifteenth round!!!!

[pound per pound]

In an era of great HW's Norton is an all-time great. He fought everyone but Frazier and proved himself a great fighter. A great jab, awkward approach, crossover defense and decent right hand, dragging right foot, Norton was one of my favorite fighters in the 70's.

I believe he solidified his greatness v. Holmes, one of the most exciting fights of the era.

Norton if the boxing world and judges were fair is 2-1 vs Ali. He won the third fight. If that was judged correctly, his legacy goes up.

Holmes vs Norton. Great fight, and very close. Holmes edged it.

[Sidney Carton]

Please. Name me the fights in which Norton was hurt by & finished by an opponent's body shots.

Both Shavers and Foreman paralyzed wasp waist Norton with a body shot and then finished him off.

[oogiebe]

Please. Name me the fights in which Norton was hurt by & finished by an opponent's body shots.

Both Shavers and Foreman paralyzed wasp waist Norton with a body shot and then finished him off.

I remember an article in the Newspaper prior to Ali/Norton 1, whereby Dundee and Ali heard that Norton's waist was like 31". Dundee said, "We'll break him in half!" Didn't happen that way, but your post made it come to mind.

[Tony1244]

A great fighter with a not so great chin. In his prime though he was stopped only twice by the among hardest punchers in history, Foreman and Shavers. The Garcia KO was before his prime and I credit Ken with avenging the Garcia KO. A thing fighters don't always do today. The Cooney Ko came way after Ken's prime.

The 39 rounds with Ali were more or less evenly fought. So were his fights with a prime Homes and Jimmy Young.

He stopped Quarry in 5. I would have favored Norton against all of the following: Lyle, Ellis, Bonavena, Bugner, and Chuvalo.

[oogiebe]

A great fighter with a not so great chin. In his prime though he was stopped only twice by the among hardest punchers in history, Foreman and Shavers. The Garcia KO was before his prime and I credit Ken with avenging the Garcia KO. A thing fighters don't always do today. The Cooney Ko came way after Ken's prime.

The 39 rounds with Ali were more or less evenly fought. So were his fights with a prime Homes and Jimmy Young.

He stopped Quarry in 5. I would have favored Norton against all of the following: Lyle, Ellis, Bonavena, Bugner, and Chuvalo.

Again, he was one of my favorites when I was a kid. I agree on the favoring of the fighters you listed, except Lyle. If Lyle tried to box, Norton wins. If Lyle went for the kill, Norton gets KO'd. A great man with a very interesting past as well.

[Tony1244]

A great fighter with a not so great chin. In his prime though he was stopped only twice by the among hardest punchers in history, Foreman and Shavers. The Garcia KO was before his prime and I credit Ken with avenging the Garcia KO. A thing fighters don't always do today. The Cooney Ko came way after Ken's prime.

The 39 rounds with Ali were more or less evenly fought. So were his fights with a prime Homes and Jimmy Young.

He stopped Quarry in 5. I would have favored Norton against all of the following: Lyle, Ellis, Bonavena, Bugner, and Chuvalo.

Again, he was one of my favorites when I was a kid. I agree on the favoring of the fighters you listed, except Lyle. If Lyle tried to box, Norton wins. If Lyle went for the kill, Norton gets KO'd. A great man with a very interesting past as well.

Lyle could be outboxed as Quarry showed. My guess is if Lyle went in for the kill, Ken could cover up and counter. I liked Lyle too but I think Ali was playing with him a bit in that title fight.

[oogiebe]

A great fighter with a not so great chin. In his prime though he was stopped only twice by the among hardest punchers in history, Foreman and Shavers. The Garcia KO was before his prime and I credit Ken with avenging the Garcia KO. A thing fighters don't always do today. The Cooney Ko came way after Ken's prime.

The 39 rounds with Ali were more or less evenly fought. So were his fights with a prime Homes and Jimmy Young.

He stopped Quarry in 5. I would have favored Norton against all of the following: Lyle, Ellis, Bonavena, Bugner, and Chuvalo.

Again, he was one of my favorites when I was a kid. I agree on the favoring of the fighters you listed, except Lyle. If Lyle tried to box, Norton wins. If Lyle went for the kill, Norton gets KO'd. A great man with a very interesting past as well.

Lyle could be outboxed as Quarry showed. My guess is if Lyle went in for the kill, Ken could cover up and counter. I liked Lyle too but I think Ali was playing with him a bit in that title fight.

I was a huge Ali fan and remember being really upset (I was a kid) when he fought Lyle until the 11th. I couldn't tell if Ali was playing a bit as you say, but I was damned nervous.

[Tony1244]

Again, he was one of my favorites when I was a kid. I agree on the favoring of the fighters you listed, except Lyle. If Lyle tried to box, Norton wins. If Lyle went for the kill, Norton gets KO'd. A great man with a very interesting past as well.

Lyle could be outboxed as Quarry showed. My guess is if Lyle went in for the kill, Ken could cover up and counter. I liked Lyle too but I think Ali was playing with him a bit in that title fight.

I was a huge Ali fan and remember being really upset (I was a kid) when he fought Lyle until the 11th. I couldn't tell if Ali was playing a bit as you say, but I was damned nervous.

Ali-Lyle was a very strange fight. Considering how well Ali outboxed Bugner a couple months later and the Thrilla in Manila was a bit after that, it looked like Ali wasn't trying against Lyle. But who knows?

[oogiebe]

Lyle could be outboxed as Quarry showed. My guess is if Lyle went in for the kill, Ken could cover up and counter. I liked Lyle too but I think Ali was playing with him a bit in that title fight.

I was a huge Ali fan and remember being really upset (I was a kid) when he fought Lyle until the 11th. I couldn't tell if Ali was playing a bit as you say, but I was damned nervous.

Ali-Lyle was a very strange fight. Considering how well Ali outboxed Bugner a couple months later and the Thrilla in Manila was a bit after that, it looked like Ali wasn't trying against Lyle. But who knows?

Kalan knows...

[sweetviolenturge]

Tony, I think Lyle was motivated & good enough to trouble Ali even at his best at that time. And, he did.
That Ali was able to rally down the stretch & score what was ( aside from Futch's retiring Frazier in his corner in Manila ) his final stoppage victory over a true contender was an impressive feat.

[sweetviolenturge]

A great fighter with a not so great chin. In his prime though he was stopped only twice by the among hardest punchers in history, Foreman and Shavers. The Garcia KO was before his prime and I credit Ken with avenging the Garcia KO. A thing fighters don't always do today. The Cooney Ko came way after Ken's prime.

The 39 rounds with Ali were more or less evenly fought. So were his fights with a prime Homes and Jimmy Young.

He stopped Quarry in 5. I would have favored Norton against all of the following: Lyle, Ellis, Bonavena, Bugner, and Chuvalo.

Again, he was one of my favorites when I was a kid. I agree on the favoring of the fighters you listed, except Lyle. If Lyle tried to box, Norton wins. If Lyle went for the kill, Norton gets KO'd. A great man with a very interesting past as well.

Lyle could be outboxed as Quarry showed. My guess is if Lyle went in for the kill, Ken could cover up and counter. I liked Lyle too but I think Ali was playing with him a bit in that title fight.

Lyle was, indeed, a very powerful fighter, but he wasn't the hell bent for leather, fast starter that Foreman & Shavers were, so I believe that Norton would have been able to get into the fight with him & establish his jab. It would have been a very tough fight for him, but it's one that I think Norton could have won. It would have been a war of attrition for sure though. And, one that could have gone either way.

[Tony1244]

In their primes I'd go with Norton by decision or late stoppage against Lyle. Lyle was a very good puncher but slightly less than Foreman or Shavers. My guess is Norton could have weathered a Lyle storm and as others said established the jab.

[oogiebe]

In their primes I'd go with Norton by decision or late stoppage against Lyle. Lyle was a very good puncher but slightly less than Foreman or Shavers. My guess is Norton could have weathered a Lyle storm and as others said established the jab.

You really think so? (obviously). Norton might have weathered Lyle, but I'm not sure either way, but I lean towards a Lyle late KO even though Kenny is one of my all time favourites.