SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[oogiebe]

You have to take the comps by prime years. Your examples, though essentially accurate, are not prime year comps.

Was Holmes prime when he boxed the ass off Mercer???? .... Was Lewis prime when he struggled with Mercer??? Was Lewis prime when he was FLATTENED by massive underdog Oliver McCall??? Was Lewis a 20 to 1 favorite when he was knocked out by Hasim Rahman??? Was Tyson prime when Buster Dougals beat the living shitt out of him???

Was Joshua experienced when he knocked out Wladimir Klitschko??? .... Joshua is 21-0 with 20 KO wins... He won 6 World Title fights and beat 3 guys who are at least as good as the bums who flattened a prime Lewis.

Was Holmes prime when he boxed the ass off Mercer???? - Holmes wasn't and Mercer was slightly passed. Can't really say much here as Holmes is an ATG

Was Lewis prime when he struggled with Mercer??? Yes

Was Lewis prime when he was FLATTENED by massive underdog Oliver McCall??? Anomaly

Was Lewis a 20 to 1 favorite when he was knocked out by Hasim Rahman??? Hubris, not skill based.

Was Joshua experienced when he knocked out Wladimir Klitschko??? Yeah, he was, in fact you touted him as an ATG. Klitchko on the other hand, was well passed his prime.

Was Tyson prime when Buster Dougals beat the living shitt out of him??? absolutely not

[oogiebe]

BTW, on a funnier note, it's hard to use Douglas/Tyson. Especially when you see a water filled condom used as a endswell in Tyson's corner.

[Kalan]

You have to take the comps by prime years. Your examples, though essentially accurate, are not prime year comps.

Was Holmes prime when he boxed the ass off Mercer???? .... Was Lewis prime when he struggled with Mercer??? Was Lewis prime when he was FLATTENED by massive underdog Oliver McCall??? Was Lewis a 20 to 1 favorite when he was knocked out by Hasim Rahman??? Was Tyson prime when Buster Dougals beat the living shitt out of him???

Was Joshua experienced when he knocked out Wladimir Klitschko??? .... Joshua is 21-0 with 20 KO wins... He won 6 World Title fights and beat 3 guys who are at least as good as the bums who flattened a prime Lewis.

Was Holmes prime when he boxed the ass off Mercer???? - Holmes wasn't and Mercer was slightly passed. Can't really say much here as Holmes is an ATG

Was Lewis prime when he struggled with Mercer??? Yes

Was Lewis prime when he was FLATTENED by massive underdog Oliver McCall??? Anomaly

Was Lewis a 20 to 1 favorite when he was knocked out by Hasim Rahman??? Hubris, not skill based.

Was Joshua experienced when he knocked out Wladimir Klitschko??? Yeah, he was, in fact you touted him as an ATG. Klitchko on the other hand, was well passed his prime.

Was Tyson prime when Buster Dougals beat the living shitt out of him??? absolutely not

What a pack of LIES.... Tyson was prime if not prepared for a tough fight....

It's not an anomaly when you get smashed on the chin with a hard driven punch... It's a defensive breakdown...

Lewis was always full of hubris... Nothing different there... Another defensive breakdown...

Joshua wasn't experienced... He was damned good... Those are 2 different assets... He had one and not the other.

Holmes was a 42-year-old ATG.... Proving that age is a number... Wladimir was a 41-year-old ATG... Proving the same.

Mercer wasn't post prime... He was prime to pre-prime... It was his 19th fight and he was an Olympic Gold Medalist.

[oogiebe]

Was Holmes prime when he boxed the ass off Mercer???? .... Was Lewis prime when he struggled with Mercer??? Was Lewis prime when he was FLATTENED by massive underdog Oliver McCall??? Was Lewis a 20 to 1 favorite when he was knocked out by Hasim Rahman??? Was Tyson prime when Buster Dougals beat the living shitt out of him???

Was Joshua experienced when he knocked out Wladimir Klitschko??? .... Joshua is 21-0 with 20 KO wins... He won 6 World Title fights and beat 3 guys who are at least as good as the bums who flattened a prime Lewis.

Was Holmes prime when he boxed the ass off Mercer???? - Holmes wasn't and Mercer was slightly passed. Can't really say much here as Holmes is an ATG

Was Lewis prime when he struggled with Mercer??? Yes

Was Lewis prime when he was FLATTENED by massive underdog Oliver McCall??? Anomaly

Was Lewis a 20 to 1 favorite when he was knocked out by Hasim Rahman??? Hubris, not skill based.

Was Joshua experienced when he knocked out Wladimir Klitschko??? Yeah, he was, in fact you touted him as an ATG. Klitchko on the other hand, was well passed his prime.

Was Tyson prime when Buster Dougals beat the living shitt out of him??? absolutely not

What a pack of LIES.... Tyson was prime if not prepared for a tough fight....

It's not an anomaly when you get smashed on the chin with a hard driven punch... It's a defensive breakdown...

Lewis was always full of hubris... Nothing different there... Another defensive breakdown...

Joshua wasn't experienced... He was damned good... Those are 2 different assets... He had one and not the other.

Holmes was a 42-year-old ATG.... Proving that age is a number... Wladimir was a 41-year-old ATG... Proving the same.

There you go again. You have started another confrontation. I tried to be nice and you just cannot help yourself. You are the biggest imbecile not only here, but I've ever met. Gloves are off. Your long winded, unrelated and asinine responses are a guarantee that everyone else will never be the worst poster on this Forum.

[oogiebe]

What a freakin' troll. Where do you cut and paste your answers from? It's positively amazing.

[Cojimar 1946]

I don't see anything on Tua or Mercer's resumes or on film to put them ahead of the guys Joshua has been beating. In addition to the Ferguson and Wilson debacles Mercer also lost to a 42 year old Holmes. His best wins are Damiani and Bert Cooper.

Who exactly did Tua beat in his career that makes him a great win for Lewis? He was a solid, top 10 guy but I think it's reasonable to think a faded Klitschko or Parker could beat him. A younger, much better conditioned Tua couldn't beat Ike Ibeabuchi and his win over Rahman is a highly controversial stoppage in which Rahman was hit after the bell and finished on his feet.

[Cojimar 1946]

Back when Lewis was active many people would critique his glass chin. In the years since his retirement the glass chin criticism seems to have died down. But if this can be applied to Wladimir than I think it also applies to Lewis given he lost twice by one-punch knockout.

[oogiebe]

Back when Lewis was active many people would critique his glass chin. In the years since his retirement the glass chin criticism seems to have died down. But if this can be applied to Wladimir than I think it also applies to Lewis given he lost twice by one-punch knockout.

I love Lewis, maybe my favourite HW of all time, but he certainly had no granite chin. He was vulnerable. Shows his skillset was really fabulous, especially after moving to the great Emmanuel, who taught him to fight tall. HIs handling of his losses made him great (especially Rahman). He knew he couldn't "f" around with anyone. I always thought an ATG had to come back from adversity. So fighters like Mayweather will never have my full respect. I went off a bit...sorry.

[Cojimar 1946]

Currently, Lewis has better depth to his resume than Joshua has but aside from Vitali I don't think the guys he beat are any better H2H than the guys Joshua has been beating.

I also think that as time passes the 1990s may have become a bit overrated. Back during the 1990s and early 2000s many people did not view it as a great era and would talk about how the division was in a shitty state. People nowadays often talk of it as a golden age but it's worth noting that many people did not feel that way back then.

[oogiebe]

Currently, Lewis has better depth to his resume than Joshua has but aside from Vitali I don't think the guys he beat are any better H2H than the guys Joshua has been beating.

I also think that as time passes the 1990s may have become a bit overrated. Back during the 1990s and early 2000s many people did not view it as a great era and would talk about how the division was in a shitty state. People nowadays often talk of it as a golden age but it's worth noting that many people did not feel that way back then.

Lewis is an ATG. If I try to imagine it, I can't see many, if any past HW's beating him in his prime(all things being even). He was really the first SUPERHW. He wasn't perfect, but he was great! Regarding ERAs, I assure you most every individual will go to their own "decade of boxing" and fondly miss the good ole' days. I do it myself (70's), but my mind keeps correcting my heart. BTW, I thought the 90's were weak at the beginning, but got better through the decade. Thanks for engaging...it's nice not to be insulted or be called a liar all the time.

[Kalan]

I don't see anything on Tua or Mercer's resumes or on film to put them ahead of the guys Joshua has been beating. In addition to the Ferguson and Wilson debacles Mercer also lost to a 42 year old Holmes. His best wins are Damiani and Bert Cooper.

Who exactly did Tua beat in his career that makes him a great win for Lewis? He was a solid, top 10 guy but I think it's reasonable to think a faded Klitschko or Parker could beat him. A younger, much better conditioned Tua couldn't beat Ike Ibeabuchi and his win over Rahman is a highly controversial stoppage in which Rahman was hit after the bell and finished on his feet.

Excellent post... Chris Byrd beat prime David Tua.... Wladimir Klitschko wiped out a prime Chis Byrd... A green Anthony Joshua overpowered Klitschko with combinations and firepower knocking him down 3 times and knocking him out...

David Tua is not a big feather in anyone's cap...

[Kalan]

Lewis is an ATG. If I try to imagine it, I can't see many, if any past HW's beating him in his prime(all things being even). He was really the first SUPERHW. He wasn't perfect, but he was great!

I love the way you qualified your answer... You said you "Can't see many if any PAST HW'S beating Lewis in his prime"

Anthony Joshua isn't a past Heavyweight Champion... Presumably this means he has a good shot to beat Lewis.

Joshua has a much quicker and more active jab than Lewis... Vitali is the only guy who outscored Lewis with the jab... It had a lot to do with his size, height, speed, and range...

Joshua has a much quicker and sharper right counter... Lewis tended to get nailed with big right hands... Even little Mikey Tyson caught him with a couple... AJ fires his to the head an body and Lewis is open for both...

Joshua throws quicker and sharper combinations than Lewis... You have never seen the kind of combinations Joshua fired at Wladimir connecting with precision on that caliber opponent coming from Lewis.

Joshua is a lot quicker on his feet... Lewis tended to be lazy and plod around the ring like an old plow horse at times.... He really didn't have much competition outside of the K Bros....who he didn't have any impressive showings against... You know damned well I'm not down with that cut stoppage because fouls contributed mightily to those cuts. That fight should have gone to the scorecards -- and if it did it was a UNANIMOUS TECHNICAL DECISION WIN for Vitali Klitschko.

[oogiebe]

Lewis is an ATG. If I try to imagine it, I can't see many, if any past HW's beating him in his prime(all things being even). He was really the first SUPERHW. He wasn't perfect, but he was great!

I love the way you qualified your answer... You said you "Can't see many if any PAST HW'S beating Lewis in his prime"

Anthony Joshua isn't a past Heavyweight Champion... Presumably this means he has a good shot to beat Lewis.

Joshua has a much quicker and more active jab than Lewis... Vitali is the only guy who outscored Lewis with the jab... It had a lot to do with his size, height, speed, and range...

Joshua has a much quicker and sharper right counter... Lewis tended to get nailed with big right hands... Even little Mikey Tyson caught him with a couple... AJ fires his to the head an body and Lewis is open for both...

Joshua throws quicker and sharper combinations than Lewis... You have never seen the kind of combinations Joshua fired at Wladimir connecting with precision on that caliber opponent coming from Lewis.

Joshua is a lot quicker on his feet... Lewis tended to be lazy and plod around the ring like an old plow horse at times.... He really didn't have much competition outside of the K Bros....who he didn't have any impressive showings against... You know damned well I'm not down with that cut stoppage because fouls contributed mightily to those cuts. That fight should have gone to the scorecards -- and if it did it was a UNANIMOUS TECHNICAL DECISION WIN for Vitali Klitschko.

Joshua is not in the discussion. After he is done, he will be assessed. God, where have I seen this post before?...

[Kalan]

Joshua is not in the discussion. After he is done, he will be assessed. God, where have I seen this post before?...

Well, he might fight until he's 40... We don't have to wait 12 years to know he has a great jab, right hand, footwork &defense... He was unmarked after 12 rounds with an undefeated World Champion... Lewis was certainly more available...

And Liston was much smaller and easier to hit than Lewis.... So there you have it.

[oogiebe]

Joshua is not in the discussion. After he is done, he will be assessed. God, where have I seen this post before?...

Well, he might fight until he's 40... We don't have to wait 12 years to know he has a great jab, right hand, footwork &defense... He was unmarked after 12 rounds with an undefeated World Champion... Lewis was certainly more available...

And Liston was much smaller and easier to hit than Lewis.... So there you have it.

I'll leave this one for the ages.

[MrGuy]

People seem to be using really selective logic in critiquing Joshua. Joshua's competition seems easily on par or better than the guys Lewis was fighting.

Also, how is getting dropped by a 41 year old Wladimir worse than Lewis being stopped by Rahman and McCall. Neither of these guys were considered big hitters and even an older, faded Wladimir quite possibly hit harder. At the same stage in his career that Wladimir fought Joshua Lewis looked pretty bad against Frank Bruno in a fight that was even before Lewis won by stoppage.

Joshua competition seems easily on par with the guys that Lewis was fighting? Mercer, Tua,Holyfield etc. were light years better than anyone Joshua has ever beat.
Was alcohol involved in that post?

Lewis was less hurt by McCall than Joshua was by Klitschko. The difference was the referee stepped in and stopped it.

Joshua has a win over a senior citizen with a glass jaw and nobody else worth mentioning. Going to go out on a limb and say Lewis and Sonny Liston would beat have him.

[MrGuy]

Joshua competition seems easily on par with the guys that Lewis was fighting? Mercer, Tua, Holyfield etc. were light years better than anyone Joshua has ever beat.
Was alcohol involved in that post?

“Was alcohol involved in that post? hic” Alp said as he took another swing of Ripple...

We know Alp is biased towards Americans, smaller Heavyweights, and generations past.... So let's examine this latest asininity and look for facts.... What do we know?

We know most of Alp’s favored Americans were too chickenshitt to fight the K Bros.... They're too big and strong.

We know Ruiz knocked Holyfield down and beat him.. We know Tua KO'd Ruiz in 17 seconds FLAT!!! We know a prime Chris Byrd beat a prime David Tua with ease We know a pre-prime Wladimir Klitschko beat a prime Chris Byrd with ease Klitschko did that on sheer size, strength, speed, and intimidation.. Wlad had MANY flaws pre Emanuel Steward.. The above series of fights points to the physical supremacy of Klitschko... He was far from a master at that point.

We know a pre-prime Wladimir Klitschko (long before he got with Emanuel Steward who Wladimir said “made me 300% better”) was light years better than Chris Byrd or Ray Mercer... Given their lack of height and size they could barely land a power punch on Wladimir... They couldn’t find the gaping hole in Wladimir’s defense that Steward closed tight. They were too scared of Wladimir’s size and punching power to throw punches or explore his defense.

We also know that ATG Roy Jones Jr said Wladimir fought the best fight of his career against Joshua – but he still got knocked down 3 X and knocked out in the 11th round... Wladimir knew he left it all out there and refused the rematch which was a guaranteed 30 million because of the greatness of the first fight... Joshua had 18 fights coming in.

Joseph Parker has a chin of iron and has never been down in his life.. He was undefeated, 6’4” X 236, fast, skillful, smart, conditioned, durable, and an undefeated Heavyweight Champion... NONE of Lewis’s opponents who could match all those qualities... Of course Parker isn’t an American so he can’t be good right???

His favored Americans were afraid of them? The U.S. hasn't had a crop of really good heavyweights in years. Wlad would've been mowed down like dry grass against by prime Tyson, Holyfield, or even Bowe. Steward didnt improve him. He turned him into a clinchmaster. Joshua did the same thing the mediocre guys who beat Wlad did. KO him when he couldn't clinch. Not a Lewis fan. But young Lewis had a jab as quick as your guy, and moved very well. You're looking at the cautious plodding jab and grabber Steward turned him into. Tyson and Holyfield lost to Lewis because they were shot. Weight wasn't the issue. Of course this is your way of implying the bigger Joshua would've beat them also.

[Cojimar 1946]

I think some of Lewis's competition is being overrated simply because they fought in the 90s. I mean, Tua consistently lost whenever he stepped up in competition. As best I can tell the only heavyweights ranked in the top 10 he beat in his entire career were Fres Oquendo and Hasim Rahman though the Rahman win is controversial. He consistently lost to the best fighters he faced and at his peak barely beat journeymen Jeff Wooden. He seems to have been pretty easy to outbox and Parker has shown a good chin thus far.

[Kalan]

Wlad would've been mowed down like dry grass against by prime Tyson, Holyfield, or even Bowe.

How many people rank Buster Douglas ahead of Wladimir Klitschko???

Tyson refused to fight the Klitschko's when he was 36 and 37 years old.... Klitschko didn't refuse to fight Joshua when he was 41... Tyson agreed to fight Danny Williams when he was 37 and was knocked out... Vitali Klitschko knocked Williams out with supreme ease in Williams' next fight....

Evander Holyfield got his ass boxed to death by Larry Donald... Vitali Klitschko is the ONLY fighter to KO Larry Donald... Holyfield was floored and beaten by John Ruiz... David Tua made a 17 second ice job out of John Ruiz... Chris Byrd beat a prime David Tua with ease... Wladimir Klitschko battered a prime Chris Byrd half to death... Byrd was super easy for Wlad.

Bowe took a couple bad beatings from Andrew Golota.... Golota was stopped by Ray Austin in 1 round.... Wladimir Klitschko knocked Ray Austin out in 2 rounds... an ice job...

Let's talk about fights that happened instead of the mythological... "Tyson woulda murdered dis bum."

[Cojimar 1946]

One problem one encounters when trying to analyze the abilities of Lewis's and Joshua's opponents is that in both eras top fighters largely failed to fight each other. It's hard to tell how good Tua, Ruddock, Tucker, Whyte are given that they didn't fight most of their contemporaries.

Ruddock is best known for his losses to Mike Tyson but as best I can tell he never beat anyone ranked in the top 10 in his entire career. Tucker beat two guys who would generally be considered top-10 but again we would have a better sense of how good he is if he had actually faced more top guys.

[Cojimar 1946]

Another thing I find perplexing is that people are often going off about how the Klitschko's fought in a crappy era but a lot of the guys Lewis fought were younger fighters from the same era as the Klitschko's-Golota, Grant, Briggs, Rahman, Tua, etc.

[MrGuy]

Wlad would've been mowed down like dry grass against by prime Tyson, Holyfield, or even Bowe.

How many people rank Buster Douglas ahead of Wladimir Klitschko???

Tyson refused to fight the Klitschko's when he was 36 and 37 years old.... Klitschko didn't refuse to fight Joshua when he was 41... Tyson agreed to fight Danny Williams when he was 37 and was knocked out... Vitali Klitschko knocked Williams out with supreme ease in Williams' next fight....

Evander Holyfield got his ass boxed to death by Larry Donald... Vitali Klitschko is the ONLY fighter to KO Larry Donald... Holyfield was floored and beaten by John Ruiz... David Tua made a 17 second ice job out of John Ruiz... Chris Byrd beat a prime David Tua with ease... Wladimir Klitschko battered a prime Chris Byrd half to death... Byrd was super easy for Wlad.

Bowe took a couple bad beatings from Andrew Golota.... Golota was stopped by Ray Austin in 1 round.... Wladimir Klitschko knocked Ray Austin out in 2 rounds... an ice job...

Let's talk about fights that happened instead of the mythological... "Tyson woulda murdered dis bum."

So after all your praise for Douglas when focused, you now trash him. I would take him over the chinny one at his best. Tyson also easily in a non clinchfest. You understand the concept of primes? Tyson was washed up well before his mid-late 30s. Everyone that Joshua beats isnt great or even good. He beat a chinny washed up clutcher, who probably gets kod as much as a club fighter if he doesnt hang on for dear life. I dont recall seeing Tyson, Holyfield, or Bowe being counted out repeatedly against nondescript fighters in their primes.

[Ambling Alp II]

Another thing I find perplexing is that people are often going off about how the Klitschko's fought in a crappy era but a lot of the guys Lewis fought were younger fighters from the same era as the Klitschko's-Golota, Grant, Briggs, Rahman, Tua, etc.

You seem to find everything perplexing. Obviously there was some overlap between Lewis and the Klitschkos; so some of the same guys would be around. However, take the earlier part of Lewis career and compare it to the heavyweight division after Lewis retired and when the Klitschkos were still fighting.
It isn't even close. It was much better in the 1990s. You can point to stupid stats like weights and deceiving win/loss records all want but it doesn't matter.

[tennessee]

The greats of the past were probably just too small for modern hvywts.

[Cojimar 1946]

Even if we concede that the 90s are somewhat better than the mid-late 2000s this is undercut by the fact that Lewis by and large didn't face the best competition available. He didn't fight a prime Tyson, a prime Holyfield or a prime Bowe. The Holyfield that Lewis faced struggled tremendously in his next fight against John Ruiz who does not appear to be any better than the guys Wladimir was facing from 2006-2015.

The 1 and 2 guys of an inferior era can be better than the number 7 and 8 guys of a better era.