SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[Kalan]

Wladimir did one HELL of a lot better in both fights...

Klitschko put on an ATG Heavyweight Fight... Mercer did an ATG impression of a punching bag.

[jas80s]

The Klitschkos ruled a long time.... People say Wladimir fought stronger comp with Haye, Povetkin, Chambers etc.

But Vitali's opponents deserve a look... They had great records and he was 3-time Heavyweight Champion.

Corrie Sanders... 39-2... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Herbie Hide... 31-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... KO 2
Sam Peter... 30-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round battering.
Tomasz Adamak... 44-1... 2-Division World Champion and never stopped before. KO 10
Juan Carlos Gomez... 44-1... Former World Cruiserweight Champion. KO 9
Odlanier Solis...17-0 undefeated Olympic Gold Medal winner. 1st round KO
Manuel Charr... 21-0 undefeated top ranked contender. Stoppage on cut in 4 rounds
Kevin Johnson... 22-0-1 undefeated top ranked contender. Swept every round on 2 cards
Chris Arreola... 27-0 undefeated top ranked contender. 10 round stoppage
Kirk Johnson... 34-1-1... Only previous loss was a ticky-tac DQ… 2 round KO
Timo Hoffman... 22-0... Bigger and taller than Vitali... Swept every round on 2 cards
Ed Mahone... 21-0-2... Undefeated contender... KO 3
Shannon Briggs, 51-5-1... A 2-time Heavyweight Champion. Swept every round of UD
Chris Byrd, 30-1... Vitali was winning very easily on all scorecards when forced to retire due to a completely severed rotator cuff assembly. He entered the ring with a slight rotator tear... He thought he could fight through it... It soon got much worse and eventually severed completely... Vitali retired after the 9th ahead on all cards.
Lennox Lewis, 40-2-1... Vitali was winning on ALL scorecards when it was stopped on cuts on his left eyelid caused by foul blows... If they went to the scorecards Vitali would have won a Unanimous Technical Decision 6.

They should have because of thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

I might be missing a measure of sarcasm in your post, but....

I can't help but wonder how you might choose to characterize fighters like: Ed Mahone, Kevin Johnson, and Timo Hoffman if Riddick Bowe were able to defeat them? Here you seem to be more than willing to describe the wins for Vitali in pretty flattering terms, but I am quite sure if you scoured there records you could do quite a number on their respective ledgers..

It's just interesting to me that you can take a guy like Kevin Johnson and treat that as a good win, but look at a guy like Larry Donald and go off on how that win is total shite (sorry, been watching Get Shorty). I just can't see any real difference in those two except that Donald accomplished more.

I mean, you even (begrudgingly) gave Joshua credit for beating Charles Martin (in a different thread). How can THAT win be better than beating Larry Donald? I am all for context, but I just can't fathom how I am supposed to be impressed with beating Kevin Johnson, Charles Martin, and Ed Mahone, but see nothing in a win over Larry Donald? I just cannot see a distinction except, once again, Larry Donald accomplished more.

You can give me another couple of paragraphs of why Larry Donald sucks if you want, but you understand of course that what I am suggesting is that a difference between these fighters seems hard to justify. Yet, your take on the respective fights in question varies, not just a little, but quite strongly.

Of course, if you feel like Bowe couldn't have handled Johnson, Mahone, and Hoffman then everything makes sense. We'll never know what might happen in these theoretical match ups, but it would be another pretty unconventional call.

[MrGuy]

He was not 42 you lying bastard.

41 for Klitchko fight.

Thanks for the clarification.
If he was 42, he is past his prime.
41 is a totally different story. Literally every fighter is about as good when they are 41 as 31. That is virtually no difference. Everything dramatically changes when you turn 42.

Since he was a mere 41, this has to go down as yet another tremendous win for Klitschko.

[MrGuy]

Wladimir did one HELL of a lot better in both fights...

Klitschko put on an ATG Heavyweight Fight... Mercer did an ATG impression of a punching bag.

You do realize some fighters keep their skills at advanced ages, while others dont. Right? Doesn't mean fighter A is better than B. Besides he didn't spend a decade taking no punishment, riding his opponents around the ring like farm animals. The Joshua /Klinchko fight wasn't great, nor was it an ATG performance. Mercer at his best pimp slaps Wlad.

[MrGuy]

Sure, Wladimir was past his prime when he faced Joshua but I think Tucker was past it as well when he fought Lewis. Wladimir was a much better fighter in his prime than Tucker and I would think that even a somewhat diminished version would still be too much for Tucker especially given Tucker had started to slip himself. How do you see the fight going personally?

Do you see prime Wlad going the distance with Tyson without a clinchfest? I'm thinking prime Wlad wasn't much better than prime Tucker.

[Kalan]

The Klitschkos ruled a long time.... People say Wladimir fought stronger comp with Haye, Povetkin, Chambers etc.

But Vitali's opponents deserve a look... They had great records and he was 3-time Heavyweight Champion.

Corrie Sanders... 39-2... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Herbie Hide... 31-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... KO 2
Sam Peter... 30-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round battering.
Tomasz Adamak... 44-1... 2-Division World Champion and never stopped before. KO 10
Juan Carlos Gomez... 44-1... Former World Cruiserweight Champion. KO 9
Odlanier Solis...17-0 undefeated Olympic Gold Medal winner. 1st round KO
Manuel Charr... 21-0 undefeated top ranked contender. Stoppage on cut in 4 rounds
Kevin Johnson... 22-0-1 undefeated top ranked contender. Swept every round on 2 cards
Chris Arreola... 27-0 undefeated top ranked contender. 10 round stoppage
Kirk Johnson... 34-1-1... Only previous loss was a ticky-tac DQ… 2 round KO
Timo Hoffman... 22-0... Bigger and taller than Vitali... Swept every round on 2 cards
Ed Mahone... 21-0-2... Undefeated contender... KO 3
Shannon Briggs, 51-5-1... A 2-time Heavyweight Champion. Swept every round of UD
Chris Byrd, 30-1... Vitali was winning very easily on all scorecards when forced to retire due to a completely severed rotator cuff assembly. He entered the ring with a slight rotator tear... He thought he could fight through it... It soon got much worse and eventually severed completely... Vitali retired after the 9th ahead on all cards.
Lennox Lewis, 40-2-1... Vitali was winning on ALL scorecards when it was stopped on cuts on his left eyelid caused by foul blows... If they went to the scorecards Vitali would have won a Unanimous Technical Decision 6.

They should have because of thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

I might be missing a measure of sarcasm in your post, but....

I can't help but wonder how you might choose to characterize fighters like: Ed Mahone, Kevin Johnson, and Timo Hoffman if Riddick Bowe were able to defeat them? Here you seem to be more than willing to describe the wins for Vitali in pretty flattering terms, but I am quite sure if you scoured there records you could do quite a number on their respective ledgers..

It's just interesting to me that you can take a guy like Kevin Johnson and treat that as a good win, but look at a guy like Larry Donald and go off on how that win is total shite (sorry, been watching Get Shorty). I just can't see any real difference in those two except that Donald accomplished more.

I mean, you even (begrudgingly) gave Joshua credit for beating Charles Martin (in a different thread). How can THAT win be better than beating Larry Donald? I am all for context, but I just can't fathom how I am supposed to be impressed with beating Kevin Johnson, Charles Martin, and Ed Mahone, but see nothing in a win over Larry Donald? I just cannot see a distinction except, once again, Larry Donald accomplished more.

You can give me another couple of paragraphs of why Larry Donald sucks if you want, but you understand of course that what I am suggesting is that a difference between these fighters seems hard to justify. Yet, your take on the respective fights in question varies, not just a little, but quite strongly.

Of course, if you feel like Bowe couldn't have handled Johnson, Mahone, and Hoffman then everything makes sense. We'll never know what might happen in these theoretical match ups, but it would be another pretty unconventional call.

It’s not just beating any of these guys that makes Vitali special... It’s HOW he beat them… He never sucked like Bowe did with Golota… Tyson did with Douglas… Holyfield did with Ruiz… Or Lewis did with McCall… Vitali was never knocked down and never behind on points after any fight… He only lost because he was injured, and he was winning both fights that he lost on all scorecards when they were stopped.

Larry Donald was a good boxer… Bowe beat Larry Donald when he was only had 16 fights, while Bowe had over 30 fights.. Vitali Klitschko Beat Donald when he was a very experienced fighter.. Vitali was the ONLY fighter who ever stopped Donald.. Kirk Johnson beat an experienced Donald also.. Vitali stopped Johnson in 2 rounds for Johnson's only real loss.

Bowe could handle most of Vitali’s opponents. But Iboth Lewis and Vitali would shittcan Bowe in an early round... Bowe was wide open.. Even Golota was able to hit him... Every good puncher, even Michael Grant, got rid of Golota.

[Phil Titan]

I believe Anthony Joshua would win by 10th round KO.

[Ambling Alp II]

Anthony Joshua last fought in late March. If we compare his best wins with those of Lennox Lewis as of March 1994 we get the following matchups.
Joshua Lewis
1.Wladimir Klitschko vs 1.Tony Tucker
2.Joseph Parker vs 2.Donovan Ruddock
3.Dominic Breazeale vs 3.Frank Bruno
4.Dilian Whyte vs 4.Gary Mason
5.Carlos Takam vs 5. Phil Jackson
Frankly, I don't see an edge for Lewis here and would not be at all surprised if Joshua's opponents swept Lewis's opponents.

C'mon Caj...be fair. Wlad was past his prime. Tucker would take largely outpoint a 41 y/o Wlad. He was so underrated and forgotten thanks to Tyson.
Can't call who would win Parker/Rudduck but I'd lean towards Ruddock. Bruno beats Breazeale; Whyte bests Mason; Takem Bests Jackson. JMHO.

Quite frankly there is a huge edge for Lewis opponents over Joshuas. Tucker, Ruddock, and Bruno would all go 5-0.
At this point, Joshua has not proven at all that he would get by those three himself.

[Ambling Alp II]

I would rate the Klitschko, Tua era as follows
1. Wladimir Klitschko
2.Vitali Klitschko
3.Ike Ibeabuchi
4.David Tua
5.Ruslan Chagaev
6.Chris Byrd
7.Nikolai Valuev
8.John Ruiz
9.Tony Thompson
10.Hasim Rahman
11.Oleg Maskaev
12.Jameel McCline

Interesting that your #2 guy has a grand total of zero wins over the rest of your top 12.

[Kalan]

I would rate the Klitschko, Tua era as follows
1. Wladimir Klitschko
2.Vitali Klitschko
3.Ike Ibeabuchi
4.David Tua
5.Ruslan Chagaev
6.Chris Byrd
7.Nikolai Valuev
8.John Ruiz
9.Tony Thompson
10.Hasim Rahman
11.Oleg Maskaev
12.Jameel McCline

Interesting that your #2 guy has a grand total of zero wins over the rest of your top 12.

That's because they refused to fight him... Byrd never did a rematch because he knew he lucked out... He knew very well that a healthy Vitali would crush him more easily than Wladimir did...

Sam Peter was a World Champion... He KO'd Maskaev and beat McCline... He was 30-1 when Vitali trashed him... Peter certainly deserves to be ranked ahead of guys he beat .... and Rahman as well

[gilgamesh]

I would rate the Klitschko, Tua era as follows
1. Wladimir Klitschko
2.Vitali Klitschko
3.Ike Ibeabuchi
4.David Tua
5.Ruslan Chagaev
6.Chris Byrd
7.Nikolai Valuev
8.John Ruiz
9.Tony Thompson
10.Hasim Rahman
11.Oleg Maskaev
12.Jameel McCline

Interesting that your #2 guy has a grand total of zero wins over the rest of your top 12.

That's because they refused to fight him... Byrd never did a rematch because he knew he lucked out... He knew very well that a healthy Vitali would crush him more easily than Wladimir did...

Sam Peter was a World Champion... He KO'd Maskaev and beat McCline... He was 30-1 when Vitali trashed him... Peter certainly deserves to be ranked ahead of guys he beat .... and Rahman as well

Why did Byrd rematch Wladimir then? Byrd got his ass kicked against Wladimir the 1st time they fought, but he willingly fought him a 2nd time even knowing how difficult it would surely be.

[Kalan]

Because Wlad was easier to fight than Vitali...

When VK got going he'd beat tamales out of you that you never ate... You could have asked Sam Peter and Corrie Sanders about it... Wlad might have punched harder with a single shot, but Vitali was much tougher and kept coming when he started nailing you ... and he could throw for 12... He stopped a few guys who nobody else stopped.

[oogiebe]

Because Wlad was easier to fight than Vitali...

When VK got going he'd beat tamales out of you that you never ate... You could have asked Sam Peter and Corrie Sanders about it... Wlad might have punched harder with a single shot, but Vitali was much tougher and kept coming when he started nailing you ... and he could throw for 12... He stopped a few guys who nobody else stopped.

VK was a brute! A shame about all the injuries. He would have dominated rather than Wlad.

[Kalan]

Right... If he hadn't gotten into that fool sport Kickboxing ... and damaged his legs so bad...

There might be a different History for Boxing in the late 1990's and early 2000's.

[oogiebe]

Right... If he hadn't gotten into that fool sport Kickboxing ... and damaged his legs so bad...

There might be a different History for Boxing in the late 1990's and early 2000's.

Agreed. He was a tough SOB with an amazing chin and certainly didn't mind mixing it up!

[Cojimar 1946]

Some of the fights could go either way and you might be able to make a good case for Lewis's opponents. For example, Breazaele was dropped and hurt by Ugonoh and Mansir so certainly Bruno might be able to hurt and stop him but simply dropping him and stopping him are different matters. In each instance he was able to survive and work his way back into the fight. But clearly, he doesn't have the greatest durability so perhaps Bruno has a good shot here.

But with Wladimir and Tucker I'm having a hard time seeing what Tucker could do to phase Wladimir. This isn't the 80s Tucker were talking about. The Tucker of the early 90s seems pretty slow and easy to hit. McCall landed over and over and Tucker couldn't seem to find any way to get out of the way. Tucker also isn't a big hitter, so it seems doubtful that Wladimir's lack of durability would be a factor.

As far as Ruddock vs Parker, Parker thus far has shown a great chin and has never been stopped and to the best of my knowledge never even been floored. If Ruddock can't bomb him the question is whether he can outbox him?

[Kalan]

Bowe certainly isn't outboxing Parker... Too easy to hit...

Bowe was knocked down by Cruiserweight Holyfield and twice by Golota... Parker has never been down... Parker's has been boxing since he was 6, but I wasn't impressed with him until lately... He showed a much better defense against the jab and in general... Joshua ripped Whyte, Breazeale, Takam, and Molina with jabs... He did land it on Parker as well and scored a lot of points with it, but he didn't really punish him badly with it, and wasn't able to follow up with big bombs.

[MrGuy]

Bowe certainly isn't outboxing Parker... Too easy to hit...

Bowe was knocked down by Cruiserweight Holyfield and twice by Golota... Parker has never been down... Parker's has been boxing since he was 6, but I wasn't impressed with him until lately... He showed a much better defense against the jab and in general... Joshua ripped Whyte, Breazeale, Takam, and Molina with jabs... He did land it on Parker as well and scored a lot of points with it, but he didn't really punish him badly with it, and wasn't able to follow up with big bombs.

So Parker is now an ATG because he went the distance with Joshua? Bowe had his faults. He was easily hittable. However unlike Joshua being tentative, he would just swing for the fences against Parker.

[Kalan]

He would get knocked cold if he did... Bowe avoided punchers like the plague -- and for good reason... Joshua wasn't tentative. The referee destroyed the fight. They'll probably fight again in the next 2 or 3 years... It should be better with a referee who isn't giving lectures every 15 seconds... I never saw that jerkoff before.

[Cojimar 1946]

Yes, Joshua failed to stop a guy who has never been stopped or dropped as a pro thus far. You think this is somehow a knock on Joshua?

[Kalan]

Right.... It's Joshua's job to win the fight... He can't control lame officiating like he had in his last 2 fights.

Both Joshua and Klitschko's faces were all beaten up after their fight... They fought an ATG fight that was stupendous to watch... Joshua-Parker never got going and it sure as Hell wasn't the fault of the combatants... Boxing regulators SHOULD weed out terrible officials -- but they never do... I've never seen Boxing get rid of a single rotten judge or referee, except maybe pressure somebody to retire if they're over 70 and making stupid assed decisions for an extended period.

[jas80s]

The Klitschkos ruled a long time.... People say Wladimir fought stronger comp with Haye, Povetkin, Chambers etc.

But Vitali's opponents deserve a look... They had great records and he was 3-time Heavyweight Champion.

Corrie Sanders... 39-2... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Herbie Hide... 31-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... KO 2
Sam Peter... 30-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round battering.
Tomasz Adamak... 44-1... 2-Division World Champion and never stopped before. KO 10
Juan Carlos Gomez... 44-1... Former World Cruiserweight Champion. KO 9
Odlanier Solis...17-0 undefeated Olympic Gold Medal winner. 1st round KO
Manuel Charr... 21-0 undefeated top ranked contender. Stoppage on cut in 4 rounds
Kevin Johnson... 22-0-1 undefeated top ranked contender. Swept every round on 2 cards
Chris Arreola... 27-0 undefeated top ranked contender. 10 round stoppage
Kirk Johnson... 34-1-1... Only previous loss was a ticky-tac DQ… 2 round KO
Timo Hoffman... 22-0... Bigger and taller than Vitali... Swept every round on 2 cards
Ed Mahone... 21-0-2... Undefeated contender... KO 3
Shannon Briggs, 51-5-1... A 2-time Heavyweight Champion. Swept every round of UD
Chris Byrd, 30-1... Vitali was winning very easily on all scorecards when forced to retire due to a completely severed rotator cuff assembly. He entered the ring with a slight rotator tear... He thought he could fight through it... It soon got much worse and eventually severed completely... Vitali retired after the 9th ahead on all cards.
Lennox Lewis, 40-2-1... Vitali was winning on ALL scorecards when it was stopped on cuts on his left eyelid caused by foul blows... If they went to the scorecards Vitali would have won a Unanimous Technical Decision 6.

They should have because of thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

I might be missing a measure of sarcasm in your post, but....

I can't help but wonder how you might choose to characterize fighters like: Ed Mahone, Kevin Johnson, and Timo Hoffman if Riddick Bowe were able to defeat them? Here you seem to be more than willing to describe the wins for Vitali in pretty flattering terms, but I am quite sure if you scoured there records you could do quite a number on their respective ledgers..

It's just interesting to me that you can take a guy like Kevin Johnson and treat that as a good win, but look at a guy like Larry Donald and go off on how that win is total shite (sorry, been watching Get Shorty). I just can't see any real difference in those two except that Donald accomplished more.

I mean, you even (begrudgingly) gave Joshua credit for beating Charles Martin (in a different thread). How can THAT win be better than beating Larry Donald? I am all for context, but I just can't fathom how I am supposed to be impressed with beating Kevin Johnson, Charles Martin, and Ed Mahone, but see nothing in a win over Larry Donald? I just cannot see a distinction except, once again, Larry Donald accomplished more.

You can give me another couple of paragraphs of why Larry Donald sucks if you want, but you understand of course that what I am suggesting is that a difference between these fighters seems hard to justify. Yet, your take on the respective fights in question varies, not just a little, but quite strongly.

Of course, if you feel like Bowe couldn't have handled Johnson, Mahone, and Hoffman then everything makes sense. We'll never know what might happen in these theoretical match ups, but it would be another pretty unconventional call.

It’s not just beating any of these guys that makes Vitali special... It’s HOW he beat them… He never sucked like Bowe did with Golota… Tyson did with Douglas… Holyfield did with Ruiz… Or Lewis did with McCall… Vitali was never knocked down and never behind on points after any fight… He only lost because he was injured, and he was winning both fights that he lost on all scorecards when they were stopped.

Larry Donald was a good boxer… Bowe beat Larry Donald when he was only had 16 fights, while Bowe had over 30 fights.. Vitali Klitschko Beat Donald when he was a very experienced fighter.. Vitali was the ONLY fighter who ever stopped Donald.. Kirk Johnson beat an experienced Donald also.. Vitali stopped Johnson in 2 rounds for Johnson's only real loss.

Bowe could handle most of Vitali’s opponents. But Iboth Lewis and Vitali would shittcan Bowe in an early round... Bowe was wide open.. Even Golota was able to hit him... Every good puncher, even Michael Grant, got rid of Golota.

OK, I didn't see anything in there about KJ, Martin, and Mahone. And, I saw an acknowledgement that Donald was a good boxer. So, I will take it that you and I are in agreement about my previous post that drawing distinctions between wins over KJ, Martin, Mahone, and Donald is tough to do and, if anything, should be weighted more toward Donald since he accomplished more in his career than the other three.

I'm not trying to be a nit picker though. Truth be told, I am in agreement with your general point which is that Bowe was prone to poor performances which suggest that he was hardly without flaws as a fighter and that placing him among other dominant fighters (and Vitali qualifies) requires a leap of faith to be sure, since Bowe had a very short run at the top and demonstrated clear shortcomings as a fighter. I just don't always follow or agree with the "evidence" you put forward.

You can just throw your opinion out there, in this case, I think you are on the right track. No need to pump up Timo Hoffman as a quality win that somehow proves something.

[Cojimar 1946]

In addition to his durability, Parker seems to have some decent defensive skills. Of the five matchups I think Klitschko and Takam should be heavily favored while Bruno has a good shot at beating Breazaele. I think Parker should probably be favored over Ruddock but it's certainly possible things could go the other way.

Are there any Mason fights that give a good demo of his skills?

[Cojimar 1946]

Also, as far as Bowe goes one potential weakness is that he seems fairly easy to hit. Guys that are taller with a longer reach might have an easier time hitting him and then moving out of range than a smaller heavy like Holyfield who would have to get well within Bowes punching range to unload.

[ewenhay]

Yes, Joshua failed to stop a guy who has never been stopped or dropped as a pro thus far. You think this is somehow a knock on Joshua?

You have clearly misinterpreted my reply to Kolon's idiotic post. Far from knocking Joshua, I give Parker credit. MORONS try to claim it was the ref who hindered Joshua, thus rendering him incapable of scoring the " expected " KO.

You're not really allowed to point out any flaws in Joshua on here at the moment. Many people here want to anoint him as an ATG and don't want to hear of his inadequacies.