SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[Cojimar 1946]

For the Povetkin era my top 12 would be as follows
1.Alexander Povetkin
2.David Haye
3.Eddie Chambers
4.Johann Duhaupas
5.Robert Helenius
6.Derek Chisora
7.Alexander Dimitrenko
8.Bermaine Stiverne
9.Chris Arreola
10.Carlos Takam
11.Calvin Brock
12.Sultan Ibragimov

[Kalan]

The point is this decade isn't close to as good as that one. You know how many of those so called bums would be looked upon as being much better these days? I noticed all.that heart in all the Klitschko and Fury clinchfests. They won't get beat because their opponents are Lewis's 90s sparring partners.

Haye, and Povetkin didn't spar with Lewis... They could hit harder than Rahman so they had a good shot to ice Lewis...

Ray Mercer had about a tough a time with Jesse Furguson as he did with Lewis...

Wladimir smoked Mercer and WK didn't even know how to box at that time... Wlad was the FIRST guy to knock Mercer out.

Vitali never sparred with Lewis... He was beating him on all scorecards after 6 completed rounds... It SHOULD have gone to the scorecards because of this.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

Lewis used 4 or 5 sparring partners.... Wladimir and Joshua used up to 16 sparring partners... They wore them out quickly... You'll notice they never got stopped with one punch like Lewis did TWICE.

[oogiebe]

Mercer was 41 going on 42 when he fought Wlad. and with regards to Joshua not being one punch kayoed, ...not yet. We don't' know what is going to happen moving forward.

[BoxBuzz]

Mercer was 41 going on 42 when he fought Wlad.

Well then he had plenty of time to study and prepare.

[oogiebe]

Mercer was 41 going on 42 when he fought Wlad.

Well then he had plenty of time to study and prepare.

LMAO!!!!

[Kalan]

Mercer was 41 going on 42 when he fought Wlad.

Well then he had plenty of time to study and prepare.

LMAO!!!!

He did.... And he still didn't do half as well as Wladimir did at 41 with a much better opponent...

Or half as well as Larry Holmes did at 42 with a much worse opponent.

[Hookie74]

Liston had arguably the greatest jab in heavyweight history, and was pretty light on his feet despite this image of him being some plodder. He had an incredible reach (85") despite only being 6'0", and according to Chuck Wepner and other old timers I have interviewed he hit harder than George Foreman.

Look at his record:

Floyd Patterson (two 1st round kayos)
Cleveland Williams (KO3, KO2)
Zora Folley (KO3)
Eddie Machen (WUD)
Roy Harris (KO1)
Nino Valdes (KO3)
Mike DeJohn (KO6)

Forget the Ali fights... In fact, imagine a universe where Ali didn't exist... Liston very well could have reigned as champion into the late 60s when Frazier would have came along. Unfortunately, the Ali losses plagued his mental and emotional health, and went down a bad path which ultimately resulted in his death.

He'd of iced Wilder and Joshua and Klitschko. It'd of taken a tremendous mover, with lots of skill to defeat Liston possibly a Tyson Fury. Men who went toe to toe with Liston did not survive.

I do consider Liston an all-time great but I don't rate him as high as some people do. He beat one Hall of Famer in Floyd Patterson, KO1 x2. He lost to the only other Hall of Famer he faced, LKOby7 Ali and LKOby1 Ali. On his way up he won two very close decisions over the more experienced Johnny Summerlin. He was outboxed and suffered a broken jaw in his decision loss to the 180 Lb. Martin Marshall, he went 2-1 (1) vs. Marshall. Sure, he stopped Cleveland Williams, KO3 and KO2. So what? Williams was not special. Williams looked dgoos knocking out bums but usually lost badly to any name opponent he faced. He went 1-1 (1) vs. Ernie Terrell and he had a Draw vs. Eddie Machen. He didn't get past the 3 Rd round vs. Bob Satterfield (180 Lbs.), Liston x2, or Ali (after he was shot). He stopped Zora Folley in the 3rd round. Folley was a good fighter but not a big Heavyweight, not a big punchers, and not the most durable fighter. Eddie Machen was pretty much on par with Zora Folley except he was usually more durable (although Ingo Johansson was able to stop him inside of 1 round)... Liston won a decision over Machen in a competitive bout. Nino Valdes was washed up when he fought Liston. Those other guy aren't even worth mentioning.

Liston enjoyed being the bigger guy in the ring, the bully. That would not be the case vs. Joshua. Joshua is taller (5"-6" depending on the source) and heavier (at least 30 solid Lbs.). The reach is questionable. Liston's is sometimes listed as 84" and Joshua's is usually listed as 82". Keep in mind the height difference though... the shortest distance from paint A to point B is a straight line (and parallel with the floor). If we are talking about head shots... Liston will be punching up while all Joshua has to do is "bend at the knees" or lean forward and his punches to Liston's head are still straight... at this point Joshua actually has the longer reach (even if Liston did have an 84" reach).

Ok, that's just how they match up physically. Liston had good overall skill, his jab was very good. He was not the quickest HW but he could cut the ring off fairly well. Joshua is still a work in progress but he fought a very determined Wladimir Klitschko. Yes, Klitschko was past prime but he was in good shape and we'll prepared. Klitschko was much better vs. Joshua than he was vs. Fury. Joshua showed good skill, strength, punching power, durability, and stamina in this fight. He proved he could beat a future Hall of Famer who was his own size.

I'll take Joshua.

[Ambling Alp II]

Liston beat Patterson and lost to Ali. He is normally rated higher than Patterson and lower than Ali. He was very inexperienced in the Marshall fights.
Besides Patterson He did beat some quality competition. Of course you can find ways to rip Williams, Machen, Folley etc. They weren't great fighters. However they were really good. Williams was a literally a last minute substitute when he fought Satterfield. He didn't even know he was going to fight that. (This yet another example of a small heavyweight beating bigger one.)

So of course you can spin it that none of Liston's wins mean much. But his pre-title victim's list is about as good as almost anyone's.

What has Joshua actually proved? So far, he has had maybe two fights where we can get any idea.
Why does he get praise for the Klitschko fight? He is fighting a 41 year old who had a glass jaw. A guy who had not fought in well over a year. Had not won a fight in two years. Even that was a unimpressive decision over the great Bryant Jennings.
How in the world did it take him so long to put Klitschko away? He even got decked in the fight. A great fighter doesn't struggle nearly that much.

Then we have the pillow fight against Parker. At this point we have to question his power as well as his chin.
At this point, he has done less than Ike Ibeabuchi.

No reason at all to think he would beat someone like Liston.

[Kalan]

Liston beat Patterson and lost to Ali. He is normally rated higher than Patterson and lower than Ali. He was very inexperienced in the Marshall fights.
Besides Patterson He did beat some quality competition. Of course you can find ways to rip Williams, Machen, Folley etc. They weren't great fighters. However they were really good. Williams was a literally a last minute substitute when he fought Satterfield. He didn't even know he was going to fight that. (This yet another example of a small heavyweight beating bigger one.)

So of course you can spin it that none of Liston's wins mean much. But his pre-title victim's list is about as good as almost anyone's.

What has Joshua actually proved? So far, he has had maybe two fights where we can get any idea.
Why does he get praise for the Klitschko fight? He is fighting a 41 year old who had a glass jaw. A guy who had not fought in well over a year. Had not won a fight in two years. Even that was a unimpressive decision over the great Bryant Jennings.
How in the world did it take him so long to put Klitschko away? He even got decked in the fight. A great fighter doesn't struggle nearly that much.

Then we have the pillow fight against Parker. At this point we have to question his power as well as his chin.
At this point, he has done less than Ike Ibeabuchi.

No reason at all to think he would beat someone like Liston.

Liston was a great Heavyweight who probably would have beaten Ali had he been more active in the 3 years before he fought him... Liston was a MASSIVE favorite to win for good reasons... But nobody knows how old Liston was, and he fought 3 badly shortened rounds in the 3 years before he fought the best opponent of his career... Liston was forced to quit in the 1st Ali fight because of a severe shoulder/biceps injury that's extremely well documented... Even with the severe injury and pathetic activity level in the prior 3 years, Liston held Ali even through 6 rounds... People ignore these facts.

Liston was robbed blind in the Ali rematch... Liston knew the neutral corner rule was in effect, but he forget that rules didn't apply to Ali... Ali was so special that he could ignore the rules with impunity... When Liston got up Ali was still not in a neutral corner. Without the supervision of a referee Ali attacked Liston... Liston easily ducked and dodged a barrage of 6 follow-up punches, proving his reflexes were intact and he was unhurt by the the 1st knockdown of his career.

It's obvious the fight should have continued and Liston still had a good chance to win.

Anthony Joshua is undefeated in 21 fights with a 95% KO ratio... His list of vanquished opponents include Wladimir Klitschko, Dillian Whyte, Andy Ruiz, Carlos Takam, and Joseph Parker - an extremely impressive record.

Liston never faced anyone remotely like Wladimir Klitschko in his entire career... Only 2 Heavyweight Champions in the long History of Boxing were never knocked down...Getting knocked down means nothing... Getting up and winning when you're knocked down means everything... Just about everybody hits the canvas, but many don't stay there... Liston was easily beating Leotis Martin... But when Sonny was knocked down he didn't will himself to get up.

The way I see this fight is Liston at his '50's peak weighed 210... Joshua at his best so far was 250... Before he was knocked cold, Zora Folley hit Liston with about 20 right hand counters right on the chin... Folley was a good boxer, but lacked the size or strength to hurt Liston... AJ would jab the crap out of Liston and batter him with quick right counters.. Joshua has size and strength in spades and would flatten the much smaller Liston faster than 196-pound Leotis Martin did.

[Cojimar 1946]

Liston's opponents were mostly cruiserweights. Such wins are not really applicable to today's heavyweights. Liston didn't beat any skilled guys that were 240+ or even 220+ so it's reasonable to question their relevancy in a matchup with a skilled super heavyweight like Joshua.

[Ambling Alp II]

Joshua has looked very beatable in his only two fights worth mentioning. Stop looking at the weights and look at how good fighters were. What can Joshua do to Liston and vice versa. The number on the scale doesn't do you any good once the bell rings.

[Kalan]

The numbers on the scale did Liston a LOT of good after the bell rang... Especially against teeny little guys like Patterson... Harris... Machen... Folley and other little tykes he could easily overpower with his much greater size and strength...

If Height, Weight, and Reach don't mean anything.....why has Boxing done the "Tale of the Tape" for 100 years????

[BoxBuzz]

Ok, Kalan didn't actually write the following...but he probably would have been better advised to write the following.


Liston was a great Heavyweight who probably wouldn't have beaten Ali had he been more active in the 3 years before he fought him... Liston was a MASSIVE favorite to win for good reasons... But nobody knows how old Liston was, and he fought 3 badly shortened rounds in the 3 years before he fought the best opponent of his career... Liston was forced to quit in the 1st Ali fight because of a severe shoulder/biceps injury that's extremely well documented... Even with the severe injury and pathetic activity level in the prior 3 years, and a good splash of liniment on his gloves Liston NEARLY held Ali even through 6 rounds... I often ignore many facts and am happy to have BoxBuzz assist me when I fall short.

I took the liberty to help you better express your thoughts.

[Kalan]

"Ok, Kalan didn't actually write the following...but he probably would have been better advised to write the following." BuzzBox writes a bunch of BULLCRAP THAT MAKE NO SENSE as ususal, since he doesn't have Saad to kick about any more. Saad just got tired of your stupid crap and left...

I took the liberty to help you better express your thoughts.

You never had a thought... You have to have a brain before you have a thought...savvy??? ...Chicken first... then egg.

Grow a brain.

It makes perfect sense, for instance, that an aging boxer who's fought 3 shortened rounds in 3 years might be a little rusty... And if he also suffers a severe injury to his left shoulder and biceps that might handicap him as well... And if his opponent is allowed to toss out the rule book with impunity and he gets robbed blind ... that also is a handicap.

[APerno]

Too early to make this assessment, come back in five years the answer will be different one way or another.

[Kalan]

It's not too early... Liston fought 4 World Title fights and somehow managed to get screwed out of 2 of them... Since Liston knew the rules, it was very frustrating to see Liston let asswhole Boxing Commissioners fuk him over like they did.

Joshua will fight his 7th World Title Fight coming up... Liston had 4... Marciano had 7 against worn out Light Heavyweights... Tunney had 3... Dempsey won 6 Title Fights, but 2 of them were against very small Light Heavyweights.... Patterson fought mostly 2nd raters and he couldn't handle a big boy.... Tyson sucked butternuts versus the bigger Douglas... Lewis sucked butternuts a couple times.... Walcott won one (1) Title Defense against a Light Heavyweight who was a gone goose.

We can accurately judge with Liston being so hittable with right hands... Joshua would take out the much smaller and shorter Liston who was pretty much made to order for him.

[Cojimar 1946]

The issue people seem to be missing is that accomplishments in one era don't always translate to another era, if they did Bob Fitzsmmons vs Lennox Lewis would be a 50-50 fight or even one in which Fitzsimmons should be favored. But realistically very very few people would give Fitzsimmons any chance against Lewis despite spectacular achievements in his own time.

The guys Liston was beating would not be heavyweights today, they would be light heavies or cruiserweights. The definition of what it means to be a heavyweight has changed over time. Why should we count Liston's wins over sub-200 pound fighters?

[Cojimar 1946]

The only rated fighters over 200 pounds Liston beat were Mike DeJohn and Ceveland Williams. At this point in his career Joshua already has more wins over guys who would be considered heavyweights today.

[Kalan]

The only rated fighters over 200 pounds Liston beat were Mike DeJohn and Ceveland Williams. At this point in his career Joshua already has more wins over guys who would be considered heavyweights today.

Right... And Mike DeJohn and Cleveland Williams were both easier to hit than Charles Martin... Most big Heavyweights in Liston's time (both DeJohn and Williams would be very small Heavyweights today) tried to walk through your punches and knock you out in a slugfest... Liston was unusual.. He focused more on boxing skills so those 2 were very easy for him.

[oogiebe]

Ok, Kalan didn't actually write the following...but he probably would have been better advised to write the following.


Liston was a great Heavyweight who probably wouldn't have beaten Ali had he been more active in the 3 years before he fought him... Liston was a MASSIVE favorite to win for good reasons... But nobody knows how old Liston was, and he fought 3 badly shortened rounds in the 3 years before he fought the best opponent of his career... Liston was forced to quit in the 1st Ali fight because of a severe shoulder/biceps injury that's extremely well documented... Even with the severe injury and pathetic activity level in the prior 3 years, and a good splash of liniment on his gloves Liston NEARLY held Ali even through 6 rounds... I often ignore many facts and am happy to have BoxBuzz assist me when I fall short.

I took the liberty to help you better express your thoughts.

ouch! LMAO!

[Kalan]

"Ok, Kalan didn't actually write the following...but he probably would have been better advised to write the following." BuzzBox writes a bunch of BULLCRAP THAT MAKE NO SENSE as ususal, since he doesn't have Saad to kick about any more. Saad just got tired of your stupid crap and left...

I took the liberty to help you better express your thoughts.

You never had a thought... You have to have a brain before you have a thought...savvy??? ...Chicken first... then egg.

Grow a brain.

It makes perfect sense, for instance, that an aging boxer who's fought 3 shortened rounds in 3 years might be a little rusty... And if he also suffers a severe injury to his left shoulder and biceps that might handicap him as well... And if his opponent is allowed to toss out the rule book with impunity and he gets robbed blind ... that also is a handicap.

and that goes for Oogie as well.... Grow a brain.

[oogiebe]

Is there a way to make a new thread and ban specific users?

[oogiebe]

Ermm, exactly how many weeks / months did Liston have to prepare for the UPSTART Clay?

Are we ALL supposed to be so seriouisly FUKKING stupid as to believe Liston didn't bother preparing himself for the Clay fight?

Only the way I remember it, the big, useless, slower than MOLASSES Liston was made to look a fukking idiot by the much quicker, more mobile, and by far and away more intelligent CLAY. Perhaps I am wrong, but I very much doubt it.

Don't waste your breath. He's really not worth it.

[Kalan]

You need a head before you can grow a brain Old-n-Moldie... You've got a lump of shitt on your shoulders.

Go flush yourself down the nearest toilet before your stench kills the entire human race.

[MrGuy]

The point is this decade isn't close to as good as that one. You know how many of those so called bums would be looked upon as being much better these days? I noticed all.that heart in all the Klitschko and Fury clinchfests. They won't get beat because their opponents are Lewis's 90s sparring partners.

Haye, and Povetkin didn't spar with Lewis... They could hit harder than Rahman so they had a good shot to ice Lewis...

Ray Mercer had about a tough a time with Jesse Furguson as he did with Lewis...

Wladimir smoked Mercer and WK didn't even know how to box at that time... Wlad was the FIRST guy to knock Mercer out.

Vitali never sparred with Lewis... He was beating him on all scorecards after 6 completed rounds... It SHOULD have gone to the scorecards because of this.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

Lewis used 4 or 5 sparring partners.... Wladimir and Joshua used up to 16 sparring partners... They wore them out quickly... You'll notice they never got stopped with one punch like Lewis did TWICE.

Yet this decade isn't close to being on par with that one.