Anthony Joshua (WBA, IBF, WBO, IBO) vs. Deontay Wilder (WBC)

[Boxerbeetle]

Bringing up Wlad vs Jennings doing the best numbers for Wlad is making my point but I don't expect common sense to prevail. People tuned in to see an American heavyweight champ. People didn't tune in to see Wlad Povetkin, that did shitty ratings. 1.6 million for wlad vs jennings and 500k for wlad vs povetkin.

How many watched Wlad Ibragimov (US based fight, in New York) compared to Wilder Ortiz?

Also - nobody is saying that Joshua Wilder won't be Wilder's biggest fight in the States. It almost certainly will be. The question is will it be big enough to justify 50m paydays. I don't see any evidence of that whatsoever.

Why don't you do the research yourself on how many watched wlad ibragimov? hint, it didn't do half of what wilder ortiz did on showtime. You don't see any evidence that the fight justifies 50m paydays but haymon and finkel do. You and other forum accountants seem to know more about this side of the business than Al Haymon? Respect.

What makes you think Haymon and Finkel think the fight generates a £50m payday? Have they actually made a confirmed offer?

[TheLeprechaun]

How many watched Wlad Ibragimov (US based fight, in New York) compared to Wilder Ortiz?

Also - nobody is saying that Joshua Wilder won't be Wilder's biggest fight in the States. It almost certainly will be. The question is will it be big enough to justify 50m paydays. I don't see any evidence of that whatsoever.

Why don't you do the research yourself on how many watched wlad ibragimov? hint, it didn't do half of what wilder ortiz did on showtime. You don't see any evidence that the fight justifies 50m paydays but haymon and finkel do. You and other forum accountants seem to know more about this side of the business than Al Haymon? Respect.

What makes you think Haymon and Finkel think the fight generates a £50m payday? Have they actually made a confirmed offer?

No they were just taking the piss with their offer right?

People in the UK will find any reason to take Joshua and hearns side. The fact is, Joshua was guaranteed 50 million. He would have got the 50 million regardless. They know that. He accepts, they do the deal and he turns up in America, fights and gets his 50 million. Anyone who thinks he wouldn't have got the 50 million (at least 50) is someone you can't have a reasonable discussion with on this subject.

Knowing that, people then turn to discrediting the fight making certain amounts of money. We get experienced fight accountants telling us this and that. None of this actually matters because the 50 million would be guaranteed no matter what but the accountants will still overlook that and do whatever they can to discredit haymon and wilder.

So what can you do? Its ridiculous to engage in a discussion about it really

[Boxerbeetle]

Why don't you do the research yourself on how many watched wlad ibragimov? hint, it didn't do half of what wilder ortiz did on showtime. You don't see any evidence that the fight justifies 50m paydays but haymon and finkel do. You and other forum accountants seem to know more about this side of the business than Al Haymon? Respect.

What makes you think Haymon and Finkel think the fight generates a £50m payday? Have they actually made a confirmed offer?

No they were just taking the piss with their offer right?

People in the UK will find any reason to take Joshua and hearns side. The fact is, Joshua was guaranteed 50 million. He would have got the 50 million regardless. They know that. He accepts, they do the deal and he turns up in America, fights and gets his 50 million. Anyone who thinks he wouldn't have got the 50 million (at least 50) is someone you can't have a reasonable discussion with on this subject.

Knowing that, people then turn to discrediting the fight making certain amounts of money. We get experienced fight accountants telling us this and that. None of this actually matters because the 50 million would be guaranteed no matter what but the accountants will still overlook that and do whatever they can to discredit haymon and wilder.

So what can you do? Its ridiculous to engage in a discussion about it really

50 million is guaranteed because...what? Wilder sent an email with a 24 hour deadline on it? But his team won’t confirm any details of it, or even meet to discuss it? Something tells me you don’t have much experience with real life business transactions if you call that a guarantee

[TheLeprechaun]

What makes you think Haymon and Finkel think the fight generates a £50m payday? Have they actually made a confirmed offer?

No they were just taking the piss with their offer right?

People in the UK will find any reason to take Joshua and hearns side. The fact is, Joshua was guaranteed 50 million. He would have got the 50 million regardless. They know that. He accepts, they do the deal and he turns up in America, fights and gets his 50 million. Anyone who thinks he wouldn't have got the 50 million (at least 50) is someone you can't have a reasonable discussion with on this subject.

Knowing that, people then turn to discrediting the fight making certain amounts of money. We get experienced fight accountants telling us this and that. None of this actually matters because the 50 million would be guaranteed no matter what but the accountants will still overlook that and do whatever they can to discredit haymon and wilder.

So what can you do? Its ridiculous to engage in a discussion about it really

50 million is guaranteed because...what? Wilder sent an email with a 24 hour deadline on it? But his team won’t confirm any details of it, or even meet to discuss it? Something tells me you don’t have much experience with real life business transactions if you call that a guarantee

OK, hayman and finkle are not credible at all.

With that, I will leave the thread.

[dirk2686]

Ok. So for the fight to generate 50m paydays it'll need to do very big business. Bearing in mind Mayweather Hatton generated take home 25m and 10m of which 11m and 6m was a guarantee.

So you're saying Joshua alone would be getting a guarantee of almost three times the guarantee combined for Mayweather Hatton, and the fight would generate so much additional interest that Wilder would be able to look at the 12.5m offer as 'ridiculous?'

I mean, Joshua's guarantee would be only just under the combined guarantee for Mayweather Canelo. It would have to be absolute massive. Where is the evidence that it would be ffs.

Do you think I think there is any point in giving you a serious reply?

The reason you haven't given a serious reply is because you cannot give a serious reply.

In simple terms, for the 50m guarantee for Joshua to be a realistic offer the fight will have to do absolutely phenomenal business. We're talking Mayweather Canelo figures at least. We're talking absolutely blowing Mayweather Hatton numbers out of the water. All I'm asking for is where is the evidence that it can?

You can keep saying Haymon is rich. We all know that. But he's also not stupid and what happens if the fight makes 40m? They pay Joshua more than the entire pot and Wilder gets nothing? I mean, for Wilder to get a penny more than his joke offer would land him from Hearn the fight would have to generate more than 62.5m. No Wilder fight has done 3m.

This isn't 'Brits looking for excuses.' It's a legitimate question that you can't answer. The 24 hour thing and total lack of a contract frankly makes it look even more ridiculous.

[Stuarty]

Sick of all the fanny farting with this bout now! If there was a genuine interest to make the fight from both sides then it surely would've been made? What's the issue or WHO'S the issue!?

[dirk2686]

Sick of all the fanny farting with this bout now! If there was a genuine interest to make the fight from both sides then it surely would've been made? What's the issue or WHO'S the issue!?

Hearn has asked for meetings and a contract regarding the 50m offer. Wilder's team have strangely declined.

Nobody seriously thinks a 50m 24 hour email from Wilder himself is an actual contract.

[Stuarty]

Sick of all the fanny farting with this bout now! If there was a genuine interest to make the fight from both sides then it surely would've been made? What's the issue or WHO'S the issue!?

Hearn has asked for meetings and a contract regarding the 50m offer. Wilder's team have strangely declined.

Nobody seriously thinks a 50m 24 hour email from Wilder himself is an actual contract.

Yeah you're right. It was just a publicity stunt! He could offer the moon and the fuckin stars but until he proves where it's coming from it's just total bollux!

[Grilling Machine]

what happens if the fight makes 40m?

And Wilder's accepted $12.5m? Then it's a 69:31 split, and that only improves for Joshua if it goes over $40m. 40% of 40's $16m, so perhaps something like $15m for Wilder with a percentage of anything over $40m, should it go that high.

As for why we expect Wilder to sell all of a sudden... because it's a proper heavyweight unification between undefeated punchers. The ref made Joshua-Parker so uneventful that it feels like it never happened now. Whereas Price-Povetkin's still fresh in thousands of minds, its narrative seasoning its wobble and knockout with spice. Joshua-Wilder has that same intrigue if it's marketed well.

Wilder doesn't do sales against cans, but so what?! Without him there is no fight, so maybe he gets to earn a bit more than he's worth this one time for the sake of the fight going ahead. Like property it's a sellers' market right now, as evidenced by Haye's 2016 run. This fight could be over in the first round and end up representing terrible PPV value, but we all wanna see it, and that simultaneously puts the ball in both men's courts. Compromise is necessary, and if it's not forthcoming I think that speaks of a mutual fear of humiliation. Joshua once said that he'd eat Wilder alive; where's that bravado gone?

He might well be right, but he's the one with a patchy run of form as Wilder's grown in confidence, his career very much in the ascendancy. And the WBC's a prized belt. I do suspect that Joshua's the more confident still, but his apparent reluctance to concede a US venue doesn't support those ‘eat him alive, he's too light’ comments.

I think the venue's really important in this one, actually. Because although I think that Wilder's the better fighter, and that he could and should win, I expect Joshua to knock him out. Why? Because I believe he'll be badly unsettled by the pressure, and that'll be massively amplified if it happens in the UK. Taking that $12.5m with the proviso it happens in the US is a plan I'd recommend to Wilder.

[dirk2686]

No. The question is what if Joshua is guaranteed 50m and the fight does less than that? Which it obviously could.

Again, nobody is saying it won't be Wilder's biggest fight. But it needs to be Floyd levels of big to justify 50m. And nothing suggests it would be.

[Grilling Machine]

But that's a what-if that none of us are taking seriously, right? I don't see its bearing.

Why not just agree a split of whatever it takes and then market the balls off of it? Seems sensible enough. Totals could feasibly land anywhere between 30 and 80, I'd say. 80's towards the la-la end, I admit. It'll be interesting to see the numbers in retrospect.

[dirk2686]

But that's a what-if that none of us are taking seriously, right? I don't see its bearing.

Why not just agree a split of whatever it takes and then market the balls off of it? Seems sensible enough. Totals could feasibly land anywhere between 30 and 80, I'd say. 80's towards the la-la end, I admit. It'll be interesting to see the numbers in retrospect.

Yeah - that seems sensible. But I think you'll find some people are taking the 50m offer seriously.

[nitro5912]

The issue with the 50m offer isn't the money, for Eddie and AJ is the lack of other details.

If it came from Shelly, stating that at X venue on X date. It happens, I think that Eddie agrees.

The fishy point around it all is that finkel and Al haymon were bang up for meetings, then suddenly they pull out of a planned one and won't rearrange it.

The offer was a PR stunt that on wilder has backfired because their bluff has been called.

I get that Eddie won't get an email containing a contract, but surely some details are expected.

To say we pick the venue, we pick a date between these 2 months, we control media etc is never going to appeal.

But if these public offers lead to the fight then it is a good thing.

[BigDoofus]

Sick of all the fanny farting with this bout now! If there was a genuine interest to make the fight from both sides then it surely would've been made? What's the issue or WHO'S the issue!?

Wilder's side is getting all the stick and we're getting a lot of bluster from Hearn. The reality is Joshua was asked if he was interested in going to USA and clearly said "No."
Wind on to 5.11

[dirk2686]

Sick of all the fanny farting with this bout now! If there was a genuine interest to make the fight from both sides then it surely would've been made? What's the issue or WHO'S the issue!?

Wilder's side is getting all the stick and we're getting a lot of bluster from Hearn. The reality is Joshua was asked if he was interested in going to USA and clearly said "No."
Wind on to 5.11

Why should he have any interest in going to the States?

Reverse the situation; Joshua earns a pittance fighting on free to view tv in the U.K. and Wilder is selling bucketloads in the States. Then the question of him going to the States is legitimate.

[Stuarty]

Sick of all the fanny farting with this bout now! If there was a genuine interest to make the fight from both sides then it surely would've been made? What's the issue or WHO'S the issue!?

Wilder's side is getting all the stick and we're getting a lot of bluster from Hearn. The reality is Joshua was asked if he was interested in going to USA and clearly said "No."
Wind on to 5.11

Why should he have any interest in going to the States?

Reverse the situation; Joshua earns a pittance fighting on free to view tv in the U.K. and Wilder is selling bucketloads in the States. Then the question of him going to the States is legitimate.

Yeah, I agree with that. The US isn't the be all and end all! We fill stadiums over here. That must count for something surely? AJ is the draw and fills stadiums! Why not stay here and keep that going!

[nitro5912]

Sick of all the fanny farting with this bout now! If there was a genuine interest to make the fight from both sides then it surely would've been made? What's the issue or WHO'S the issue!?

Wilder's side is getting all the stick and we're getting a lot of bluster from Hearn. The reality is Joshua was asked if he was interested in going to USA and clearly said "No."
Wind on to 5.11

Why should he go to the states? He is a PPV star here, he is the unified champion with 3 of the 4 major belts. He is the one who should be deciding where he fights not wilder.

[BigDoofus]

Sick of all the fanny farting with this bout now! If there was a genuine interest to make the fight from both sides then it surely would've been made? What's the issue or WHO'S the issue!?

Wilder's side is getting all the stick and we're getting a lot of bluster from Hearn. The reality is Joshua was asked if he was interested in going to USA and clearly said "No."
Wind on to 5.11

Why should he go to the states? He is a PPV star here, he is the unified champion with 3 of the 4 major belts. He is the one who should be deciding where he fights not wilder.

To earn more money than he could here.
His promoter is happy for him to promote a fight there with Miller, yet reluctant to fight Wilder there. Why's that?

[BigDoofus]

Why should he have any interest in going to the States?

Reverse the situation; Joshua earns a pittance fighting on free to view tv in the U.K. and Wilder is selling bucketloads in the States. Then the question of him going to the States is legitimate.

To maximise his ring earnings. Or he could stay in the UK like a heavyweight Sven Ottke.

[nitro5912]

Wilder's side is getting all the stick and we're getting a lot of bluster from Hearn. The reality is Joshua was asked if he was interested in going to USA and clearly said "No."
Wind on to 5.11

Why should he go to the states? He is a PPV star here, he is the unified champion with 3 of the 4 major belts. He is the one who should be deciding where he fights not wilder.

To earn more money than he could here.
His promoter is happy for him to promote a fight there with Miller, yet reluctant to fight Wilder there. Why's that?

But that should be up to AJ to decide not wilder and his team.

AJ is the big fish out of the 2, these negotiations should be working on those lines.

Personally I don't think the fight does more in the states unless one of the big Vegas casinos pick it up and pay a ridiculous site fee. I would have thought more money to be made in the UK at a UK time on PPV here as I don't think it will sell big on PPV over their.

[BigDoofus]

But that should be up to AJ to decide not wilder and his team.

AJ is the big fish out of the 2, these negotiations should be working on those lines.

Personally I don't think the fight does more in the states unless one of the big Vegas casinos pick it up and pay a ridiculous site fee. I would have thought more money to be made in the UK at a UK time on PPV here as I don't think it will sell big on PPV over their.

So you don't think that it will be picked up in Vegas?

Joshua's promoter admits the fight makes more money in the USA. What experience do you have in boxing finances that makes you know more than Joshua's promoter?

You think that Joshua is a big fish in the USA?

[nitro5912]

But that should be up to AJ to decide not wilder and his team.

AJ is the big fish out of the 2, these negotiations should be working on those lines.

Personally I don't think the fight does more in the states unless one of the big Vegas casinos pick it up and pay a ridiculous site fee. I would have thought more money to be made in the UK at a UK time on PPV here as I don't think it will sell big on PPV over their.

So you don't think that it will be picked up in Vegas?

Joshua's promoter admits the fight makes more money in the USA. What experience do you have in boxing finances that makes you know more than Joshua's promoter?

You think that Joshua is a big fish in the USA?

I am not saying I know, I am saying why should he give up the ability to choose where he fights like was in this offer from Wilders team.

[keirw]

The 24 hour deadline, refusal to send further details and cancellation of meetings would suggest that The offer probably was bogus.

There was no way Joshua's team could agree to it without knowing more and Wilder's team knew that and played the game well.

Joshua is in a position where he doesn't have to jump at impressive sounding offers.

$50m is a hell of a lot of money, but he could earn that in a year fighting other opponents, unlike Wilder.

I think he wants the fight though, but wants to be the A side, even in the US. Which could be a sticking point.

Hearn will always be reluctant to cede any of his promotional control over Joshua, but more so than usual now with the emergence of BT sport, just imagine this fight being shown on BT PPV in the UK.....

[BigDoofus]

The 24 hour deadline, refusal to send further details and cancellation of meetings would suggest that The offer probably was bogus.

In Hearn's latest IFL interview he says he has spoken with Haymon and now Joshua has to make the decision on whether or not he is prepared to fight Wilder in Vegas.

[keirw]

The 24 hour deadline, refusal to send further details and cancellation of meetings would suggest that The offer probably was bogus.

In Hearn's latest IFL interview he says he has spoken with Haymon and now Joshua has to make the decision on whether or not he is prepared to fight Wilder in Vegas.

Glad they are having a bit of proper dialogue rather than the bluster and misinformation we have been getting from both sides in recent months.