BoxBuzz wrote:Hey...lots of opinions here. ThatOne....
1. Yes Il Duce is a spinner of tales
2. There are some that feel provoked I assume you are one of them
3. Not sure you have or ever will be "sanctioned" for calling Ill Doo Doo on his nonsense
4. We have one poster perhaps more that feel that being reactionary only makes it worse
5. His stories are interesting...and often fictional but do not break any formal rules
6. As far as "ethics" well like I say, at some point I'll gather them all and sell them and donate the proceeds to a charitable organization.
Is this acceptable?
.....even if it isn't.... I suggest we all stay calm, and carry on.
How could I begin to disagree with a man of such reasoned and seasoned judgement?
witherspoon wrote:I have just read a brilliant article by William Nack, 'The Fight's Over, Joe'.
It describes vividly the strength of Frazier's feelings toward Ali.
Great quotes sum it up for me:
'He called me stupid. He said I was so ugly my mother ran and hid when she gave birth to me. I was shocked. I sat down and said to myself, I'm gonna kill him. Ok? Simple as that. I'm gonna kill him.'
And to quote Nack:
'Frazier had done nothing to earn the caricature of Uncle Tom, but Ali had lashed him to that stake as if to define their war in black and white.'
Having read all that was said, I can only conclude (great man that he was) that Ali was spectacularly stupid.
At what point did it seem like a good idea to make a man like Joe Frazier mad enough to kill him before the biggest fight ever?
And then with the benefit of his experience he went on to smack that fukking gorilla toy for the whole world to see.
'The closest thing to dying', said Muhammad after the thriller in Manilla. No sh!t, jackass.
I skimmed most of the posts made on this thread before posting this, I come back now to see that in the context of the thread, I appear to be actively participating in a feud. For the record, that is not the case.
I'll go back to my lurking existence now, I have too much fun with this forum to allow the perils of posting to get in the way.
No feud... No worries... Just a lot of innocuous repartee... I find it interesting that some take my feigned plaintiveness as genuine anger.
And thanks for the article.
I read the article in a book called 'The Hurt Business', it's a collection of the work of the best boxing writers and its the best boxing book I have ever had my hands on (and I do read a ridiculous amount).
I read the article in a book called 'The Hurt Business', it's a collection of the work of the best boxing writers and its the best boxing book I have ever had my hands on (and I do read a ridiculous amount).
-witherspoon
Let's see if I can find it on Amazon.
Thank you again. BTW, Ring of Fire was just published. It's an account of the Louis-Schmeling fights.
To address at least one of the aspersions that is floating out and about....I would probably agree that Ali used exploitative promotional strategies and techniques. And I was one who took exception to this in the case of Joe Frazier.
Some people simply do not have an appreciation for language.....this sort of act of "bad behavior" does demonstrate callous insensitivity. So call it what it is. Insensitive.
Now in a gentle, kind, loving, nurturing environment.....sometimes these two dynamics are confused.
Because anything that is painful or difficult...or perhaps disgusting is... stupid. (If you've left the seat up in a home full of females....you'll understand what I'm saying.) Now if you are leaving the seat up to show you are the alpha...then it goes from insensitive to communicating your vile and imposing nature. Once again not necessarily stupid, perhaps obstinate? Or ...contrary? And yes you can't rule out stupid I suppose. Certainly all females will line up behind the latter definition.
Now what about boxing? This is a sport where they allow hitting, and the point of the sport is to "out tough" the opponent. But it's not "Stupid". Is it Il Duce? So boxing is an "insensitive" sport.
So to make money in a professional manner, some may choose to exploit the moment for treasure. Stupid? Really? What about cunning? Or simply "exploitative"?
Now if you happen to be male and choose to sit when you urinate...it's possible that much of this will honestly be lost on you. For you may never have been accused of stupidity.
By the way....sometimes these sorts of "exploitative" chosen actions have unintended consequences. In this case, it graced the Great Joe Frazier with many additional dollars. I'll bet this fact was probably was not lost on Joe...and maybe even one of the many reasons that in the end he chose to forgive his pugilistic adversary.
I'll bet he's looking at a few of us and wondering when we will join him in that forgiveness.
You know...here's an article that Il Duce will like...but strikingly I like it too.
It is a judgment/opinion that I do not completely concur with. However it is presented as opinion and I respect it. It does give some facts, and some spin...but in a way I don't feel the need to react to. I really like Joe Frazier (honestly who doesn't?)...and I don't think it's ever an either/or discussion.
If you haven't noticed...this world could do well to figure out a way to "transcend polarization".
Hey ThatOne.....I'd appreciate your take on this article.
Forgive if it has been entered into the record prior to this moment.
By koolking83, November 15, 2011 at 7:15 am
Joe Frazier was better than Muhammad Ali, in and out of the ring
"My name is Smokin’ Joe Frazier, sharp as a razor. Yeah, floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee. I’m the man who done the job. Yeah, he know. Look and see…."
This was the late Joe Frazier’s voicemail message. While the reference to Muhammad Ali is unmistakable, the dark, sadistic meaning behind the message is less apparent, so allow me to translate:
I, Joe Frazier, am responsible for Muhammad Ali’s Parkinson’s Disease. I, Joe Frazier, am responsible for the trembling, for the living death of an existence Muhammad Ali is suffering through.
Chillingly cold; a proud, satisfied claim of responsibility for another man’s unimaginable suffering. Seems a bit in conflict with the title of this post huh?
Frazier didn’t always feel that way about Ali-certainly not from 1967-1970.
In 1967, Ali, who at the time was Boxing’s Heavyweight Champion , was drafted to serve in Vietnam. Citing religious reasons, and as many remember, the undeniable truth that "No Vietcong ever called me person", refused to serve, or as he- to be fair, would put it, he refused to "travel 10,000 miles..to murder people"
In short order, Ali was stripped of his title, of his boxing license, and maybe most damning, of the widespread public support he had long enjoyed. The once beloved Champ was called un-American, labeled a traitor; meanwhile he was being used as a puppet of propaganda by the Nation of Islam.
Basically he was "running low", both in the finance and friendship departments.
Running low…but not on empty.
Because Joe Frazier was there.
Joe Frazier was a friend to Muhammad Ali, giving him much needed money privately, and possibly more importantly, a much needed voice of support publicly. Frazier, who had won the Heavyweight title in 1970, outspokenly lobbied for Ali’s reinstatement, be it to the media, or to the "powers that be" (up to and including President Nixon). This was of course not a completely selfless act on Frazier’s part; many considered Ali the "true champion", and Joe wanted the opportunity to cement the legitimacy of his crown. That fact withstanding, Frazier truly liked and respected Ali, and felt compelled to lend a hand when he was down.
Meanwhile, public sentiment shifted with respect to the Vietnam War, and this, most certainly coupled with the work of Frazier, resulted in Ali having his license reinstated in late 1970.
For many, the true Heavyweight Champion was back in Boxing.
For Ali and Frazier, the scene was set, not only for the "Fight of the Century" but for a well-earned thank you, for a warranted display of appreciation by Ali, for at the very least, an acknowledgement of all that Frazier had done.
The Fight happened. The thank you, the appreciation, the acknowledgement, it never came.
Instead of playing the foreign role of humble, appreciative friend, Ali wore the all too familiar hat of manipulative, mean-spirited, shamelessly self-promoting foe. Leading up to their now historic March 8, 1971 match, Ali questioned Frazier’s "blackness", he labeled him an "Uncle Tom", he portrayed him as out of touch with the black community…as a "puppet of the White Man".
Joe Frazier, who along with nearly a dozen siblings, was born, raised, and worked on, a subsistence farm in Beaufort, South Carolina, was having his "black credentials" questioned by Muhammad Ali.
That was the "thank you" Joe Frazier got.
Ali, playing to his most unparalleled of strengths, continued to rhythmically "talk the (racially fueled, baseless , self-serving ) talk", (so to speak), but ultimately, it was an incredulous, and moreover emboldened Joe Frazier who "walked the walk".
In front of a star studded audience at Madison Square Garden, Frazier made evident his superior strength as well as stamina, getting better as the fight progressed, en route to retaining his title via a unanimous, and in the eyes of most, indisputable decision. Understandably, Frazier must have believed his victory would serve as a muzzle of sorts, for the doubters, for his critics, and most importantly, for a battered, and presumably humbled Muhammad Ali.
He was wrong.
That unanimous, seemingly indisputable decision? A gift, according to Ali’s camp, from racially motivated White Judges. Much like morality...or decency, reality had little to do with what Ali said regarding Frazier.
The pair had an anti-climatic rematch in 1974, one which Ali, effectively employing a strategy of holding rather than boxing, won in the same fashion as Frazier had in their first fight-by unanimous decision.
According to Ali, the "white judges" in this instance, "got it right".
This of course set the stage for the rubber match, 1975's "Thrilla in Manila". Leading up to the fight, few gave Frazier a chance, with most simply hoping for him to make a good showing. Ali, likely feeling certain of the matches eventual outcome, took the pre-fight "verbal jabbing" to a different level, to a new height of shameful, to a new low of classless. Frazier, according to Ali, was not only "ugly and stupid", but shared more traits with a "gorilla", than someone "worthy" of being Heavyweight Champion of the World.
In many ways, the actual fight, widely considered one of the greatest in the history of the sport, mirrored the pairs initial 1971 meeting, with Frazier starting off slowly, and Ali dominating the early rounds.
In the middle rounds however, Ali grew visibly tired and Frazier capitalized. The later rounds saw the momentum shift yet again , with Frazier rendered essentially blind from the punishment Ali had inflicted. (Unbeknownst to most, Frazier had been "legally blind" in his left eye since the mid 60's)
Going into the 15th and final Round, Frazier's trainer Eddie Futch had seen enough. Despite the objections of Frazier, Futch "threw in the towel", ending the fight, and changing history, and public perception forever.
What Frazier and Futch didn't know, and couldn't of known, was that to win the fight, to win the title, to change history and his legacy forever, all Frazier had to do was stand up. Ali was exhausted, unable to stand anymore, let alone fight, he was "finished". He told his corner "cut the gloves off" .
Following the fight, Ali was uncharacteristically complimentary of Frazier:
" I'll tell the world right now, [Frazier] brings out the best in me. I'm gonna tell ya, that's one helluva man, and God bless him...He is the greatest fighter of all times, next to me."
In a magazine interview years following their epic trilogy, Ali said he regretted the way he had acted, regretted the things he had said, claiming it was all done "in the heat of the moment" and meant only to "promote the fight".
A magazine interview, not a phone call, not a personal face to face apology; no, what Joe Frazier got for years of humiliation, was a public, self-interested, half-hearted "I kinda messed up-but here's why".
The disrespect, the race baiting, the lies, the incessant belittlement-all what some wish to erroneously call "promoting" or "jesting", was for Frazier, more painful than anything endured in the ring. Joe of course couldn’t fight back with "words", not because of a lack of intelligence, as Ali would have had people believe, but because of a lack of malice, his issue was not one of articulation, but one of principle.
Today, Muhammad Ali has millions upon millions of admirers, with a seemingly endless number of "friends" who will do anything to help him.
In 1967, he had Joe Frazier.
Ali's legend, his sanctity, can be attributed to a number of factors, many of which people choose to ignore... such as luck, such as the public's selective memory, such as his illness.
Such as Joe Frazier.
Should Frazier have been proud of the lasting damage he caused Ali? Absolutely not.
That said, Joe Frazier did make Muhammad Ali who he was, and remains largely responsible for who he is.
Ultimately, Joe Frazier stood for decency, he stood for letting one's "gloves do the talking", he stood up for Muhammad Ali when he was a friend, and stood up to Muhammad Ali when he was a foe.
Ironically, had he "stood up" one more time in Manila, many would know who the better fighter was.
BoxBuzz wrote:You know...here's an article that Il Duce will like...but strikingly I like it too.
It is a judgment/opinion that I do not completely concur with. However it is presented as opinion and I respect it. It does give some facts, and some spin...but in a way I don't feel the need to react to. I really like Joe Frazier (honestly who doesn't?)...and I don't think it's ever an either/or discussion.
If you haven't noticed...this world could do well to figure out a way to "transcend polarization".
Hey ThatOne.....I'd appreciate your take on this article.
Forgive if it has been entered into the record prior to this moment.
By koolking83, November 15, 2011 at 7:15 am
Joe Frazier was better than Muhammad Ali, in and out of the ring
"My name is Smokin’ Joe Frazier, sharp as a razor. Yeah, floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee. I’m the man who done the job. Yeah, he know. Look and see…."
This was the late Joe Frazier’s voicemail message. While the reference to Muhammad Ali is unmistakable, the dark, sadistic meaning behind the message is less apparent, so allow me to translate:
I, Joe Frazier, am responsible for Muhammad Ali’s Parkinson’s Disease. I, Joe Frazier, am responsible for the trembling, for the living death of an existence Muhammad Ali is suffering through.
Chillingly cold; a proud, satisfied claim of responsibility for another man’s unimaginable suffering. Seems a bit in conflict with the title of this post huh?
Frazier didn’t always feel that way about Ali-certainly not from 1967-1970.
In 1967, Ali, who at the time was Boxing’s Heavyweight Champion , was drafted to serve in Vietnam. Citing religious reasons, and as many remember, the undeniable truth that "No Vietcong ever called me person", refused to serve, or as he- to be fair, would put it, he refused to "travel 10,000 miles..to murder people"
In short order, Ali was stripped of his title, of his boxing license, and maybe most damning, of the widespread public support he had long enjoyed. The once beloved Champ was called un-American, labeled a traitor; meanwhile he was being used as a puppet of propaganda by the Nation of Islam.
Basically he was "running low", both in the finance and friendship departments.
Running low…but not on empty.
Because Joe Frazier was there.
Joe Frazier was a friend to Muhammad Ali, giving him much needed money privately, and possibly more importantly, a much needed voice of support publicly. Frazier, who had won the Heavyweight title in 1970, outspokenly lobbied for Ali’s reinstatement, be it to the media, or to the "powers that be" (up to and including President Nixon). This was of course not a completely selfless act on Frazier’s part; many considered Ali the "true champion", and Joe wanted the opportunity to cement the legitimacy of his crown. That fact withstanding, Frazier truly liked and respected Ali, and felt compelled to lend a hand when he was down.
Meanwhile, public sentiment shifted with respect to the Vietnam War, and this, most certainly coupled with the work of Frazier, resulted in Ali having his license reinstated in late 1970.
For many, the true Heavyweight Champion was back in Boxing.
For Ali and Frazier, the scene was set, not only for the "Fight of the Century" but for a well-earned thank you, for a warranted display of appreciation by Ali, for at the very least, an acknowledgement of all that Frazier had done.
The Fight happened. The thank you, the appreciation, the acknowledgement, it never came.
Instead of playing the foreign role of humble, appreciative friend, Ali wore the all too familiar hat of manipulative, mean-spirited, shamelessly self-promoting foe. Leading up to their now historic March 8, 1971 match, Ali questioned Frazier’s "blackness", he labeled him an "Uncle Tom", he portrayed him as out of touch with the black community…as a "puppet of the White Man".
Joe Frazier, who along with nearly a dozen siblings, was born, raised, and worked on, a subsistence farm in Beaufort, South Carolina, was having his "black credentials" questioned by Muhammad Ali.
That was the "thank you" Joe Frazier got.
Ali, playing to his most unparalleled of strengths, continued to rhythmically "talk the (racially fueled, baseless , self-serving ) talk", (so to speak), but ultimately, it was an incredulous, and moreover emboldened Joe Frazier who "walked the walk".
In front of a star studded audience at Madison Square Garden, Frazier made evident his superior strength as well as stamina, getting better as the fight progressed, en route to retaining his title via a unanimous, and in the eyes of most, indisputable decision. Understandably, Frazier must have believed his victory would serve as a muzzle of sorts, for the doubters, for his critics, and most importantly, for a battered, and presumably humbled Muhammad Ali.
He was wrong.
That unanimous, seemingly indisputable decision? A gift, according to Ali’s camp, from racially motivated White Judges. Much like morality...or decency, reality had little to do with what Ali said regarding Frazier.
The pair had an anti-climatic rematch in 1974, one which Ali, effectively employing a strategy of holding rather than boxing, won in the same fashion as Frazier had in their first fight-by unanimous decision.
According to Ali, the "white judges" in this instance, "got it right".
This of course set the stage for the rubber match, 1975's "Thrilla in Manila". Leading up to the fight, few gave Frazier a chance, with most simply hoping for him to make a good showing. Ali, likely feeling certain of the matches eventual outcome, took the pre-fight "verbal jabbing" to a different level, to a new height of shameful, to a new low of classless. Frazier, according to Ali, was not only "ugly and stupid", but shared more traits with a "gorilla", than someone "worthy" of being Heavyweight Champion of the World.
In many ways, the actual fight, widely considered one of the greatest in the history of the sport, mirrored the pairs initial 1971 meeting, with Frazier starting off slowly, and Ali dominating the early rounds.
In the middle rounds however, Ali grew visibly tired and Frazier capitalized. The later rounds saw the momentum shift yet again , with Frazier rendered essentially blind from the punishment Ali had inflicted. (Unbeknownst to most, Frazier had been "legally blind" in his left eye since the mid 60's)
Going into the 15th and final Round, Frazier's trainer Eddie Futch had seen enough. Despite the objections of Frazier, Futch "threw in the towel", ending the fight, and changing history, and public perception forever.
What Frazier and Futch didn't know, and couldn't of known, was that to win the fight, to win the title, to change history and his legacy forever, all Frazier had to do was stand up. Ali was exhausted, unable to stand anymore, let alone fight, he was "finished". He told his corner "cut the gloves off" .
Following the fight, Ali was uncharacteristically complimentary of Frazier:
" I'll tell the world right now, [Frazier] brings out the best in me. I'm gonna tell ya, that's one helluva man, and God bless him...He is the greatest fighter of all times, next to me."
In a magazine interview years following their epic trilogy, Ali said he regretted the way he had acted, regretted the things he had said, claiming it was all done "in the heat of the moment" and meant only to "promote the fight".
A magazine interview, not a phone call, not a personal face to face apology; no, what Joe Frazier got for years of humiliation, was a public, self-interested, half-hearted "I kinda messed up-but here's why".
The disrespect, the race baiting, the lies, the incessant belittlement-all what some wish to erroneously call "promoting" or "jesting", was for Frazier, more painful than anything endured in the ring. Joe of course couldn’t fight back with "words", not because of a lack of intelligence, as Ali would have had people believe, but because of a lack of malice, his issue was not one of articulation, but one of principle.
Today, Muhammad Ali has millions upon millions of admirers, with a seemingly endless number of "friends" who will do anything to help him.
In 1967, he had Joe Frazier.
Ali's legend, his sanctity, can be attributed to a number of factors, many of which people choose to ignore... such as luck, such as the public's selective memory, such as his illness.
Such as Joe Frazier.
Should Frazier have been proud of the lasting damage he caused Ali? Absolutely not.
That said, Joe Frazier did make Muhammad Ali who he was, and remains largely responsible for who he is.
Ultimately, Joe Frazier stood for decency, he stood for letting one's "gloves do the talking", he stood up for Muhammad Ali when he was a friend, and stood up to Muhammad Ali when he was a foe.
Ironically, had he "stood up" one more time in Manila, many would know who the better fighter was.
Yancey....do you agree with it.....or are you enthralled with it? lol.
I think you honestly know where those who really like Joe are being led down the primrose path of idolatry here (yep he's got those folks too just like Ali) vs some very thoughtful probabilities.
Of course their are those who simply "hate the other guy"...not so much vs con on the subject of either man.
One example of "what if" of which I speak regarding this article.........what are the "troo fax" of those final moments of the Thrilla. Just too much fog for either camp to be sure of the reality. But it's got a large faithful throng of fans who "know" just what went down in everyone's minds and heats at those moments. Fanatics on both sides that "Know".
Il Duce seems to know
I don't believe I do.
I'm a .....doubter. lol.
When I do know.....I'll deliver the gospel. Until then...I'll just keep reading the Il Duce papers.
BoxBuzz wrote:To address at least one of the aspersions that is floating out and about....I would probably agree that Ali used exploitative promotional strategies and techniques. And I was one who took exception to this in the case of Joe Frazier.
Some people simply do not have an appreciation for language.....this sort of act of "bad behavior" does demonstrate callous insensitivity. So call it what it is. Insensitive.
Now in a gentle, kind, loving, nurturing environment.....sometimes these two dynamics are confused.
Because anything that is painful or difficult...or perhaps disgusting is... stupid. (If you've left the seat up in a home full of females....you'll understand what I'm saying.) Now if you are leaving the seat up to show you are the alpha...then it goes from insensitive to communicating your vile and imposing nature. Once again not necessarily stupid, perhaps obstinate? Or ...contrary? And yes you can't rule out stupid I suppose. Certainly all females will line up behind the latter definition.
Now what about boxing? This is a sport where they allow hitting, and the point of the sport is to "out tough" the opponent. But it's not "Stupid". Is it Il Duce? So boxing is an "insensitive" sport.
So to make money in a professional manner, some may choose to exploit the moment for treasure. Stupid? Really? What about cunning? Or simply "exploitative"?
Now if you happen to be male and choose to sit when you urinate...it's possible that much of this will honestly be lost on you. For you may never have been accused of stupidity.
By the way....sometimes these sorts of "exploitative" chosen actions have unintended consequences. In this case, it graced the Great Joe Frazier with many additional dollars. I'll bet this fact was probably was not lost on Joe...and maybe even one of the many reasons that in the end he chose to forgive his pugilistic adversary.
I'll bet he's looking at a few of us and wondering when we will join him in that forgiveness.
One man's insensitivity is another man's cruelty, I suppose.
BoxBuzz wrote:Yancey....do you agree with it.....or are you enthralled with it? lol.
I think you honestly know where those who really like Joe are being led down the primrose path of idolatry here (yep he's got those folks too just like Ali) vs some very thoughtful probabilities.
Of course their are those who simply "hate the other guy"...not so much vs con on the subject of either man.
One example of "what if" of which I speak regarding this article.........what are the "troo fax" of those final moments of the Thrilla. Just too much fog for either camp to be sure of the reality. But it's got a large faithful throng of fans who "know" just what went down in everyone's minds and heats at those moments. Fanatics on both sides that "Know".
Il Duce seems to know
I don't believe I do.
I'm a .....doubter. lol.
When I do know.....I'll deliver the gospel. Until then...I'll just keep reading the Il Duce papers.
Buzz, I agree with the essential message of the "better man" article.
My guts say Joe was the better man.
My hound dog nose says it.
My heart says it.
And my intuition says it.
As to Manila and to what may have happened, probably no one currently alive, save one person, can truly input.
But what may have happened at Manila doesn't really matter to my way of thinking.
Robert Duran called Sugar Ray Leonard a maricon and told him he wanted to f--k Juanita in his and her presence. Those are the two worst epithets a man can hurl at another man and Duran hurled those epithets at Ray in front of his wife.
They made up and are "friends" now.
Muhammad Ali has apologized ad nauseum and ad infinitum for taunting Joe Frazier.
Boxbuzz:
I judged Ali to be stupid, after reading about the build-up to the fight. I wonder if you mistakenly addressed your 'toilet-seat' post to Duce, or did he also make the same judgement?
Anyway, you make some good points, and I agree with you regarding Ali's antics, and the need for publicity.
But as Joe always pointed out, the purses were guaranteed for the first fight. Ali was always going to sell himself, regardless of who he was fighting.
Ali did everything to spin the showdown with Frazier as his personal battle against the establishment with Frazier in the role of the subservient black man representing that establishment.
Frazier saw himself as more representative of the black race than Ali and had actually helped Ali out financially when he was an outcast.
It's no surprise to me that Frazier, by his own admission, wanted to kill Ali(and the way he fought is proof, he left everything in the ring and, to me, was never the same fighter afterward).
It might be harsh to accuse Ali of stupidity the first go round, but to knowingly goad Frazier the way he did in Manilla is really stupid.
(The kind of stupidity that makes Ali so endearing, knowingly enrage one of the best offensive heavyweights of all time to the point where he wants you dead).
However Frazier can be the "better man" in their joint drama and still have his issues elsewhere.
Ali can have his at times loathsome behavior out in front of us all, and have hidden remarkably positive stories. I don't know them all.
Between Joe and Ali? In their shared drama? Was Joe the better guy? I don't see how I can argue otherwise based on what I know.
Situational judgment....sort of the doppelganger of situational ethics.
This does not require me to hate Ali......he may have more than made up for it in remarkable acts of kindness, by giving freely to a dieing child so that she may live. A much more relevant aspect of a life than how he may have treated another tough as nails fighter, whom he had an open competition with.
I just hesitate to judge based on a portion of a life lived.
I find both of these fellas very likeable. They both climbed some of life's highest mountains. Regardless of how they treated one another....or what their public persona may or may not be.
I think they both deserve credit.
And that makes me somewhat unpopular on both sides...in a situation where apparently you must pick sides. lol
witherspoon wrote:Boxbuzz:
I judged Ali to be stupid, after reading about the build-up to the fight. I wonder if you mistakenly addressed your 'toilet-seat' post to Duce, or did he also make the same judgement?
Anyway, you make some good points, and I agree with you regarding Ali's antics, and the need for publicity.
But as Joe always pointed out, the purses were guaranteed for the first fight. Ali was always going to sell himself, regardless of who he was fighting.
Ali did everything to spin the showdown with Frazier as his personal battle against the establishment with Frazier in the role of the subservient black man representing that establishment.
Frazier saw himself as more representative of the black race than Ali and had actually helped Ali out financially when he was an outcast.
It's no surprise to me that Frazier, by his own admission, wanted to kill Ali(and the way he fought is proof, he left everything in the ring and, to me, was never the same fighter afterward).
It might be harsh to accuse Ali of stupidity the first go round, but to knowingly goad Frazier the way he did in Manilla is really stupid.
(The kind of stupidity that makes Ali so endearing, knowingly enrage one of the best offensive heavyweights of all time to the point where he wants you dead).
Yeah, my response was not personal to the contribution directly above it....I don't think I quoted it right? If so my bad.
As far as the stupidity...that can be temporary. Not doubt pissing Frazier off was a bad idea...lol. But I think Ali had to make the climb steep...honestly if he had beaten Frazier the first time out....he would not be the legend he is today. I firmly believe that.
So stupid and lucky.....(both can be temporary) and I mean Ali was lucky to have Frazier beat the crap out of him. Frazier got his.....and he knows it......and cruelly (to some people's way of thinking if they are balanced thinkers) Frazier brags about it. So at times Joe could sink to some depths that Ali is chiefly accused of. Not that I blame Frazier for rubbing it in...since he's simply attempting to "balance the scale" in his statements.
witherspoon wrote:Boxbuzz:
I judged Ali to be stupid, after reading about the build-up to the fight. I wonder if you mistakenly addressed your 'toilet-seat' post to Duce, or did he also make the same judgement?
Anyway, you make some good points, and I agree with you regarding Ali's antics, and the need for publicity.
But as Joe always pointed out, the purses were guaranteed for the first fight. Ali was always going to sell himself, regardless of who he was fighting.
Ali did everything to spin the showdown with Frazier as his personal battle against the establishment with Frazier in the role of the subservient black man representing that establishment.
Frazier saw himself as more representative of the black race than Ali and had actually helped Ali out financially when he was an outcast.
It's no surprise to me that Frazier, by his own admission, wanted to kill Ali(and the way he fought is proof, he left everything in the ring and, to me, was never the same fighter afterward).
It might be harsh to accuse Ali of stupidity the first go round, but to knowingly goad Frazier the way he did in Manilla is really stupid.
(The kind of stupidity that makes Ali so endearing, knowingly enrage one of the best offensive heavyweights of all time to the point where he wants you dead).
Yeah, my response was not personal to the contribution directly above it....I don't think I quoted it right? If so my bad.
As far as the stupidity...that can be temporary. Not doubt pissing Frazier off was a bad idea...lol. But I think Ali had to make the climb steep...honestly if he had beaten Frazier the first time out....he would not be the legend he is today. I firmly believe that.
So stupid and lucky.....(both can be temporary) and I mean Ali was lucky to have Frazier beat the crap out of him. Frazier got his.....and he knows it......and cruelly (to some people's way of thinking if they are balanced thinkers) Frazier brags about it. So at times Joe could sink to some depths that Ali is chiefly accused of. Not that I blame Frazier for rubbing it in...since he's simply attempting to "balance the scale" in his statements.
I have spent a lot of time reading about and ruminating about the FOTC, and the rivalry as a whole lately.
Your post almost exactly mirrors my own thoughts, you obviously appreciate that there are so many aspects to the relationship between these two that you just cannot make clear cut designations of good/bad, better/worse etc.
My appreciation has evolved as I have matured, and as
Joes lasting bitterness has revealed itself over the years.
The popular description of Ali-Frazier, that they brought out the best in each other, will probably be revised to reflect that they brought out the worst in each other too.
On a deeper level, that probably translates into cliche that does seem quite fitting, that they 'defined each other'.
Il Duce....I'm sure you would agree with me that Ali's amazing recovery from that knockdown was nothing short of outstanding.
He got back up, and was rather uncooperative with Joe regarding that fight being "finished". The knockdown was spectacular.......the recovery was historic! We all got a glimpse of that Iron Jaw that Ali sported, that he didnt' have a chance to show off before. (I know you want to remind us all that Norton would later break that Jaw...lol) And yet even then his amazing resilience was on display. I know you agree with me that he was perhaps the most rugged customer in HW history. As you have often said yourself "Ali's story is all about his sheer determination and resolve"
When Ali got back up, he began a series of rounds covering their next two fights, that would end up with Joe simply unable to continue.
Joe was great. Of this there is no doubt. That's how we all discovered just how good Ali really was.
I know you agree. And of course we know you admire the man. But curb your enthusiasm for the fellow. I mean he had his flaws.....he wasn't Superman. Though I heard he did beat Superman in a comic book episode. Do you have that issue?
Toward the end of their nearly 40 rounds of fighting.....it began to look something like this (actual photos too graphic to print)
One time a cop pulled me over for running a stop sign. He said, "Didn't you see the stop sign?" I said, "Yeah, but I don't believe everything I read."
You AND I think Ali's return to the fight was the bigger deal in that moment. . Little Joe....lol...a lollipop left he had right? or should I say correct? (Don't want to get you confused). 15 rounds of grueling fighting and here comes a perfect Left from Joe Frazier that is outstanding! But wait..the man who was just flattened bounces right up. Now that's Historic!
And really....even though you protest as you type....you know that you believe it as well. I can tell by your font.
