Joshua vs. Povetkin, a mismatch or not ?

[Luis Fernando12]

One thing I do strongly agree with you about is the need for at least one more heavyweight division, for these modern super heavyweights. More heavy weight divisions are needed - and less light weight divisions.

PS I edited the post you quoted a bit. See above.

Fair enough! At least we can both agree on one common thing though. However, I also maintain that Povetkin also isn't big enough either, for fighting against modern sized Super heavyweight goliaths like Anthony Joshua. That's where we might both disagree.

There's 4 inches in height and only 13 pounds difference (229 - 243 in their last bout)
There's numerous larger differences in which the smaller challenger over came the size advantage.
It's not like Povetkin is 5'10 and 185 like fighters of yesteryear

The biggest disadvantage now is age and no drugs for Povetkin

You do realize, that no heavyweight boxer, or probably any boxer in history has ever beaten an opponent with that many diadvantages that Povetkin has against Joshua?

Povetkin is:

1) 5 inches shorter in height than Joshua.

2) 7 inches shorter than Joshua in reach.

3) 22 pounds lighter than Joshua in terms of average weight (which also includes non-functional weight such as fat, because without it, Povetkin would be even lighter).

4) is lighter by 9.69% body weight than Joshua (including non-functional weight such as fat).

5) is lighter than Joshua, even though he carries fat whilst Joshua is heavier than Povetkin, even though he carries nowhere near the amount of fat that Povetkin carries and is almost exclusively muscle.

6) 10 years older and way past his best / is a shot fighter whilst Joshua is 10 years younger and in the prime of his life.

7) is physically weaker than Anthony Joshua.

8) someone who's been in more fights, including tougher fights and is physically more faded from the accumulation of damage he's experienced throughout his career whilst Joshua is much fresher with less fights and less damage.


The advantages that Joshua holds over Povetkin is astronomical. This would be the greatest win in heavyweight boxing history if Povetkin manages to pull of a win, because such a win has never been accomplished before.

Povetkin holds 0 advantages over Joshua, except maybe experience. But that won't matter considering Wladimir Klitschko also was more experienced (and also had more advantages over Joshua than Povetkin possesses) but still lost.

So in reality, this is a FAR FAR FAR bigger mismatch than the Lomachenko vs Rigondeaux bout. But nobody seems to complain about this bout as they did for that bout.

If Povetkin took drugs, then why didn't he grow as big as Joshua in terms of height, reach, weight and muscle mass? Or even become faster? The fact that he didn't, proves that he never took drugs. Or if he did, then they were useless.

[FruitStealer]

Povetkin is:

1) 5 inches shorter in height than Joshua.

Povetkin is a solid 6'2, Joshua is not 6'7, but weak 6'6, as Klitschko. Still almost 4 inches in height difference, alright.

2) 7 inches shorter than Joshua in reach.

True. Both fighters have styles adapted to this feature

3) 22 pounds lighter than Joshua in terms of average weight (which also includes non-functional weight such as fat, because without it, Povetkin would be even lighter).

You can see in his last fights Povetkin carries less fat than in other times. Anyway he's faster than Joshua who's too much muscle bound at 250, rigid and robotic.

4) is lighter by 9.69% body weight than Joshua (including non-functional weight such as fat).
Same point as previous

5) is lighter than Joshua, even though he carries fat whilst Joshua is heavier than Povetkin, even though he carries nowhere near the amount of fat that Povetkin carries and is almost exclusively muscle.
Third time you repeat the same point...

6) 10 years older and way past his best / is a shot fighter whilst Joshua is 10 years younger and in the prime of his life.
true

7) is physically weaker than Anthony Joshua.
Nonsense. You base that only on physical appearance. How do you measure that?
Surely Povetkin one punch KOs look more vicious than Joshua's .

8) someone who's been in more fights, including tougher fights and is physically more faded from the accumulation of damage he's experienced throughout his career whilst Joshua is much fresher with less fights and less damage.

true

[Sequitorian]

Povetkin should wear lifts ... (problem solved) ...

[Luis Fernando12]

Povetkin is:

1) 5 inches shorter in height than Joshua.

Povetkin is a solid 6'2, Joshua is not 6'7, but weak 6'6, as Klitschko. Still almost 4 inches in height difference, alright.

2) 7 inches shorter than Joshua in reach.

True. Both fighters have styles adapted to this feature

3) 22 pounds lighter than Joshua in terms of average weight (which also includes non-functional weight such as fat, because without it, Povetkin would be even lighter).

You can see in his last fights Povetkin carries less fat than in other times. Anyway he's faster than Joshua who's too much muscle bound at 250, rigid and robotic.

4) is lighter by 9.69% body weight than Joshua (including non-functional weight such as fat).
Same point as previous

5) is lighter than Joshua, even though he carries fat whilst Joshua is heavier than Povetkin, even though he carries nowhere near the amount of fat that Povetkin carries and is almost exclusively muscle.
Third time you repeat the same point...

6) 10 years older and way past his best / is a shot fighter whilst Joshua is 10 years younger and in the prime of his life.
true

7) is physically weaker than Anthony Joshua.
Nonsense. You base that only on physical appearance. How do you measure that?
Surely Povetkin one punch KOs look more vicious than Joshua's .

8) someone who's been in more fights, including tougher fights and is physically more faded from the accumulation of damage he's experienced throughout his career whilst Joshua is much fresher with less fights and less damage.

true

- Povetkin is actually shorter than 6 foot 2.

- It's totally debatable if Povetkin is faster than Joshua. At best for Povetkin, I'd say their speed is equal. At worst, Povetkin is slightly slower.

- Povetkin still carries more fat than Joshua. And yet, he is still lighter than Joshua. Therefore, there exists a significant difference in functional size / weight.

- Joshua is significantly stronger than Povetkin and I base that on their respective performances against Wladimir Klitschko. Yes, I know Wlad was probably more faded and declined when he fought Joshua but physical strength is the last thing to go from an athlete. Wlad's physical strength still probably remained the same against Joshua as against Povetkin. But we can all see how easily Wlad man handled, out muscled and rag dolled the smaller Povetkin. Like the difference between a father and his 5 year old son in terms of physical strength. It was totally embarrassing and shameful for Povetkin in terms of how much weaker he was compared to Wladimir Klitschko. An astronomical difference! Wlad controlled Povetkin like Povetkin was a feather. It literally wasn't even close! An astronomical difference. So much so, that it begs the question, did Povetkin even qualify as a credible / worthy / legitimate opponent for Wladimir Klitschko (and now Anthony Joshua)? It also raises question of if Povetkin is even a credible / legitimate heavyweight to be begin with and does he even belong in the same ring with the likes of Joshua and Wladimir Klitshcko (two guys who are almost entirely different creatures altogether). Wladimir Klitschko could not control Anthony Joshua as easily as he did Povetkin. And the strength difference between the two wasn't as visibly great.


There has never been a heavyweight who has beaten an opponent with as many disadvantages that Povetkin holds over Joshua. This may arguably be the greatest single win in heavyweight boxing history if Povetkin manages to pull of the victory.

[punchoutsb]

If Povetkin took drugs, then why didn't he grow as big as Joshua in terms of height, reach, weight and muscle mass? Or even become faster? The fact that he didn't, proves that he never took drugs. Or if he did, then they were useless.

At this stage of his life likely didn't have access to to the height enhancing and arm lengthening drugs since, you know, they don't exist.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

You do realize, that no heavyweight boxer, or probably any boxer in history has ever beaten an opponent with that many diadvantages that Povetkin has against Joshua?

Povetkin is:

1) 5 inches shorter in height than Joshua.

2) 7 inches shorter than Joshua in reach.

3) 22 pounds lighter than Joshua in terms of average weight (which also includes non-functional weight such as fat, because without it, Povetkin would be even lighter).

4) is lighter by 9.69% body weight than Joshua (including non-functional weight such as fat).

5) is lighter than Joshua, even though he carries fat whilst Joshua is heavier than Povetkin, even though he carries nowhere near the amount of fat that Povetkin carries and is almost exclusively muscle.

6) 10 years older and way past his best / is a shot fighter whilst Joshua is 10 years younger and in the prime of his life.

7) is physically weaker than Anthony Joshua.

- Louie, Louie, you the kid who learned to count to 1000 and thinks he's a mathematician.

99 years ago Jack Dempsey gave up 6" in height, 6" of reach, 58 lbs of weight, and worse, had to sign a waiver guaranteeing not to sue Jess Willard in case Jess notched his third ring death against similar Dempsey sized fighters. End result accorded as the most lopsided beatings of brutality ever witnessed in modern boxing that launched Jack into the all time legendary stratosphere.

Primo Carnera was much bigger than Joshua and lost to plenty of sub 200lbers, but also credited with a death that launched the idiotic cry for a superheavy division that came to fruition with the cruiser interlude. Now Loony Louies want more subdivisions? Joe Louis faced a couple of giants as well and knocked them out. End of the day, it's a fight to be completed with no guarantees in a sport where one punch changes everything.

I picked Joshua in my predictor league, but Povetkin has gained a lot more confidence since ditching Loony Teddy who had his own loony Louie, Louie theories as you do. Deyonce for his most lucrative fight wisely ducked Povetkin to his everlasting shame, but Joshua game to clean out boxing, so we'll see soon enough.

[Enlightened-One]

Primo Carnera was much bigger than Joshua...

In the context of the heavyweight division, Primo Carnera was almost certainly NOT much bigger than Anthony Joshua.

Embellishing your claims only serves to undermine your own credibility, since your words cannot be trusted if you are unable to present facts in an objective manner.

[Thomastearns]

Primo Carnera was much bigger than Joshua...

In the context of the heavyweight division, Primo Carnera was almost certainly NOT much bigger than Anthony Joshua.

Embellishing your claims only serves to undermine your own credibility, since your words cannot be trusted if you are unable to present facts in an objective manner.

Depends if we're talking comparatively or relatively. By today's standards Joshua is one of many giant heavyweights, but Carnera was a relative freak back in the 1930s.

The main issue is surely the fact that Povetkin is now way past his best. With far from convincing wins over Price, Hammer and Rudenko recently he must be a massive underdog against Joshua.

What makes this bout interesting is to see how easily Joshua deals with the threat of a past sell-by date, but still a decent go forward technical boxer.

Joshua needs a win in the style of those other mismatches/passing of the torches such as Marciano over Louis, Ali over Patterson, Holmes over Ali, Tyson over Holmes etc.

Not Joshua over Klitschko though. That one just underlined how good Klitschko was.

[Enlightened-One]

Primo Carnera was much bigger than Joshua...

In the context of the heavyweight division, Primo Carnera was almost certainly NOT much bigger than Anthony Joshua.

Embellishing your claims only serves to undermine your own credibility, since your words cannot be trusted if you are unable to present facts in an objective manner.

Depends if we're talking comparatively or relatively. By today's standards Joshua is one of many giant heavyweights, but Carnera was a relative freak back in the 1930s.

I'm referring to an actual physical side-by-side comparison of both men.

The claim that I was challenging is blatantly untrue.

[punchoutsb]

In the context of the heavyweight division, Primo Carnera was almost certainly NOT much bigger than Anthony Joshua.

Embellishing your claims only serves to undermine your own credibility, since your words cannot be trusted if you are unable to present facts in an objective manner.

Depends if we're talking comparatively or relatively. By today's standards Joshua is one of many giant heavyweights, but Carnera was a relative freak back in the 1930s.

I'm referring to an actual physical side-by-side comparison of both men.

The claim that I was challenging is blatantly untrue.

Carnera had a much larger structure than AJ does. AJ has overbuilt his physique and still isn't as big as Primo was.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Primo Carnera was much bigger than Joshua...

In the context of the heavyweight division, Primo Carnera was almost certainly NOT much bigger than Anthony Joshua.

Embellishing your claims only serves to undermine your own credibility, since your words cannot be trusted if you are unable to present facts in an objective manner.

- My dear outed enjackassed one, Primo turned pro at 266 and near touched 290, prob averaging 275 and variously listed at 6-5+ on boxrec to 6-7 and 6-9 on wiki, he never looked fat or out of shape.

That's substantially bigger than Joshua and big enough obviously to prompt your squeally, squeaky response.

http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/12086

[fanman]

topic. probable mismatch, yes. but povetkin has fought ranked fighters before, and earned his shot. ... well he is better than takam, who also got a shot at joshua.
povetkin is ranked no.3 by ring mag. it's a testament to how good joshua is, that this is looking like a mismatch. for perspective, a wilder povetkin bout a year or so ago was viewed as practically a 50-50.

[Ilya Muromets]

Depends if we're talking comparatively or relatively. By today's standards Joshua is one of many giant heavyweights, but Carnera was a relative freak back in the 1930s.

I'm referring to an actual physical side-by-side comparison of both men.

The claim that I was challenging is blatantly untrue.

Carnera had a much larger structure than AJ does. AJ has overbuilt his physique and still isn't as big as Primo was.

Carnera had some of the gigantism disease, as does Valuev, and even moreso the late wrestler Andre the Giant.

[Ilya Muromets]

Povetkin and Joshua, with Big Baby Miller filling in for Shannon Briggs, doing his "Look at me look at me!" court jester act. Vityaz man always the gentlemanly sportsman, and Joshua also comporting himself well.

[Enlightened-One]

Primo Carnera was much bigger than Joshua...

In the context of the heavyweight division, Primo Carnera was almost certainly NOT much bigger than Anthony Joshua.

Embellishing your claims only serves to undermine your own credibility, since your words cannot be trusted if you are unable to present facts in an objective manner.

- My dear outed enjackassed one, Primo turned pro at 266 and near touched 290, prob averaging 275 and variously listed at 6-5+ on boxrec to 6-7 and 6-9 on wiki, he never looked fat or out of shape.

That's substantially bigger than Joshua and big enough obviously to prompt your squeally, squeaky response.

http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/12086

Primo Carnera’s average weight for those bouts where an official weight was actually recorded is 267lbs (as per his BoxRec resume). The Italian’s average weight for his world championship bouts was 264lbs, whilst weighing as little as 260lbs for his career-defining performance when he initially captured the title by stopping Jack Sharkey.

For the last three years, AJ’s average weight has been 248lbs, but we’ve seen him weigh as much as 250lbs for the Klitschko bout and also 254lbs against Carlos Takam.

Anthony Joshua is half an inch taller than Primo Carnera was. And the Brit would very likely have appeared to be a bigger physical specimen (certainly more imposing) than the Italian, due to his larger muscles, lower body fat levels and consequently better muscle definition.

If you feel that my calculations are wrong, then provide details of how you calculated your fictional and wildly inaccurate “275lbs” figure. Wikipedia doesn't actually list Carnera as being 6' 9", so you also need to explain the reason why you made this other dishonest claim.

Like I said before, in the context of the heavyweight division, Primo Carnera was almost certainly NOT much bigger than Anthony Joshua.

[FruitStealer]

Carnera had a bigger frame and thicker features than Joshua, who is very muscle packed, but has not a very broad torso or shoulders for a HW.

Joshua is basically a very tall and, ehmm, muscle "enhanced" LHW. He has not a thick constitution .

Carnera had some degree of gigantism for sure. He had a gigantic torso and hands/feet/head.
It can be seen clearly in pictures.

[candyslim]

Carnera and Willard enjoyed the success they did because they towered over their opponents and were able to dominate them with their weight and strength. Their results against elite fighters like Dempsey, like Baer, suggest they were 'good' because they were big, but that size only took them so far..

They weren't the fully coordinated, prime athletes like the top heavyweights of similar dimensions are today, and while being the size he is hasn't hurt (for example) Anthony Joshua's career in any way, we are long passed the days where physical advantages were sufficient, irrespective of how well you could actually fight.

[ValMar]

Carnera had a bigger frame and thicker features than Joshua, who is very muscle packed, but has not a very broad torso or shoulders for a HW.

Joshua is basically a very tall and, ehmm, muscle "enhanced" LHW. He has not a thick constitution .

Carnera had some degree of gigantism for sure. He had a gigantic torso and hands/feet/head.
It can be seen clearly in pictures.

Joshua LHW ?? I can not believe. Are you kidding ?

[FruitStealer]

Carnera had a bigger frame and thicker features than Joshua, who is very muscle packed, but has not a very broad torso or shoulders for a HW.

Joshua is basically a very tall and, ehmm, muscle "enhanced" LHW. He has not a thick constitution .

Carnera had some degree of gigantism for sure. He had a gigantic torso and hands/feet/head.
It can be seen clearly in pictures.

Joshua LHW ?? I can not believe. Are you kidding ?

Obviously right now he's a SHW by weight standards. But IMO he's not naturally a SHW, more of a HW-LHW.

Kinda Wilder is, when he's at 215. But Wilder has a much broader constitution, even being thinner.

AJ is very tall, but you can see he has not a thick frame or broad chest, his weight comes from height and lots of muscle mass.

His spectacular muscle gain is kinda suspicious for lots of people (and his gut too, he's got that kind of HGH bodybuilder belly, and no waist whatsoever).

[ValMar]

Carnera had a bigger frame and thicker features than Joshua, who is very muscle packed, but has not a very broad torso or shoulders for a HW.

Joshua is basically a very tall and, ehmm, muscle "enhanced" LHW. He has not a thick constitution .

Carnera had some degree of gigantism for sure. He had a gigantic torso and hands/feet/head.
It can be seen clearly in pictures.

Joshua LHW ?? I can not believe. Are you kidding ?

Obviously right now he's a SHW by weight standards. But IMO he's not naturally a SHW, more of a HW-LHW.

Kinda Wilder is, when he's at 215. But Wilder has a much broader constitution, even being thinner.

AJ is very tall, but you can see he has not a thick frame or broad chest, his weight comes from height and lots of muscle mass.

His spectacular muscle gain is kinda suspicious for lots of people (and his gut too, he's got that kind of HGH bodybuilder belly, and no waist whatsoever).

Try to imagine him weighing 175. You can not, of course. Even you can not imagine him as a CW.

[FruitStealer]

Hell no.
But I can see him below 220.

[ValMar]

Hell no.
But I can see him below 220.

It would be the minimum - 220. I doubt he would be able to walk properly at CW.

[FruitStealer]

There's some clip in youtube of young George Foreman fighting a 6'7 guy Bob Hazelton.
If I remember correctly the guy was listed at 190+ something lbs.

Foreman killed him with a jab in 20 seconds tho

[ValMar]

There's some clip in youtube of young George Foreman fighting a 6'7 guy Bob Hazelton.
If I remember correctly the guy was listed at 190+ something lbs.

Foreman killed him with a jab in 20 seconds tho

Povetkin is not Forman, Hazelton is not Joshua. As I can remember M. Tyson dropped (easily) a lot of big/tall fighters, too.

[Luis Fernando12]

You do realize, that no heavyweight boxer, or probably any boxer in history has ever beaten an opponent with that many diadvantages that Povetkin has against Joshua?

Povetkin is:

1) 5 inches shorter in height than Joshua.

2) 7 inches shorter than Joshua in reach.

3) 22 pounds lighter than Joshua in terms of average weight (which also includes non-functional weight such as fat, because without it, Povetkin would be even lighter).

4) is lighter by 9.69% body weight than Joshua (including non-functional weight such as fat).

5) is lighter than Joshua, even though he carries fat whilst Joshua is heavier than Povetkin, even though he carries nowhere near the amount of fat that Povetkin carries and is almost exclusively muscle.

6) 10 years older and way past his best / is a shot fighter whilst Joshua is 10 years younger and in the prime of his life.

7) is physically weaker than Anthony Joshua.

- Louie, Louie, you the kid who learned to count to 1000 and thinks he's a mathematician.

99 years ago Jack Dempsey gave up 6" in height, 6" of reach, 58 lbs of weight, and worse, had to sign a waiver guaranteeing not to sue Jess Willard in case Jess notched his third ring death against similar Dempsey sized fighters. End result accorded as the most lopsided beatings of brutality ever witnessed in modern boxing that launched Jack into the all time legendary stratosphere.

Primo Carnera was much bigger than Joshua and lost to plenty of sub 200lbers, but also credited with a death that launched the idiotic cry for a superheavy division that came to fruition with the cruiser interlude. Now Loony Louies want more subdivisions? Joe Louis faced a couple of giants as well and knocked them out. End of the day, it's a fight to be completed with no guarantees in a sport where one punch changes everything.

I picked Joshua in my predictor league, but Povetkin has gained a lot more confidence since ditching Loony Teddy who had his own loony Louie, Louie theories as you do. Deyonce for his most lucrative fight wisely ducked Povetkin to his everlasting shame, but Joshua game to clean out boxing, so we'll see soon enough.

The fact that you have to go back hundred or so years in order to find an anomaly, further reinforces my argument / point,

Funny how you forgot to mention that Jack Dempsey was also SIGNIFICANTLY younger than ancient, old Jess Willard. 14 years younger to be precise. It was a PRIME Dempsey vs a past his best version of Willard.

This situation isn't comparable with Povetkin vs Joshua. I've already stated this. Not only is Povetkin SIGNIFICANTLY out-sized, but is also SIGNIFICANTLY out-aged, out-primed, out-gunned, disadvantaged by location / venue (fighting in Joshua's backyard with arguably uneven playing field, despite already having other disadvantages) and disadvantaged by style (his style is the worst style to beat someone like Joshua).

There is literally 0 advantage Povetkin holds over Joshua. Except experience, which is irrelevant as Wladimir Klitschko was also more experienced but still lost. But other than that, Povetkin has no advantages. Not age, not prime, not height, not reach, not physical strength, not style and not a favorable location to top it all off.

This fight is a a disgusting, gruesome, horrendous and an astronomical mismatch of otherworldly proportions. Povetkin is literally walking into his own public execution / slaughter, fighting Joshua at this point in his career in the UK.

Not a fair fight. Not a credible fight. Not a legitimate fight. But a pure circus show / act.

The fact that team Joshua, despite having every other advantage in their favor, still also want it to be in their backyard shows how insecure and weak champions they are.