HW Champs hitting the deck

[Ambling Alp II]

Thought this could be fun. I thought we could make a list of all the times the linear heavyweight champs was knocked down in his career. (counting any they had at lighter weight classes as well. .i.e. Fitzsimmons when he was a middleweight would count)

Thought we could go in order. So I started with Corbett through Burns. I listed the knockdowns that I could find. I am sure some are missing; Fitzsimmons in particular.
If anyone can find more of these five, let us know. Also any form the next five, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Tunney and Schmeling. Later we can do the next five.
Obviously knockdowns aren't the end all be all, but this could be interesting and fun.

So lets do some research. Let me know what you find.

Anyway, here is what I have so far:

Corbett - Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Jeffries I, Jeffries II (2x). total of being knocked down 5 times in 6 fights.
Fitzsimmons - Corbett, Hall, Choynski, Jeffries I (4x) Jeffries II, Johnson, Lang. 10 times in 7 fights.
Jeffries - Johnson (3x) 3 times in 1 fight.
Hart - Hanarahan, Carter I, Carter II, Root I, Root II, OBrien, Ferguson, Willie (3x) Ross, Morris (3x). 14 times in 9 fights
Burns - Sholtreau, Schreck, McCune, Johnson, Pelkey, Beckett (2x). 7 times in 6 fights

Johnson -
Willard -
Dempsey -
Tunney -
Schmeling -

[BoxBuzz]

Are you including any and all KD's for full career?

[dalcumly]

By my estimate Floyd Patterson was knocked down 21 times in his career.

[APerno]

By my estimate Floyd Patterson was knocked down 21 times in his career.

Should be the record, but we will see.

[APerno]

Gene Tunney should be easy, just one, Dempsey II.

Which, (if I am correct, I am not sure), makes Tunney's composure just one more example of his mastery of the game. So many fighters (especially back then) would jump up too quickly (and with no mandatory eight count to protect them) would set themselves up to be knocked down again, quickly. E.g. if Carnera had taken an eight count (first KD) it is likely he would have gotten out of the round with only one KD.

Despite his inexperience, with being on the canvas, Tunney composed himself and handled the crisis as well as anyone could.

[APerno]

Off the top of my head: Dempsey went down twice with Firpo and once with Tunney. Two flash KDs and one classic painting.

How can we find out if Fireman Jim Flynn's KO of Dempsey included KDs? -- Also, legend has it that he came off the floor to beat Gun Boat Smith, but I don't know where to look to confirm either. Boxrec makes no mention of either.

[APerno]

Thought this could be fun. I thought we could make a list of all the times the linear heavyweight champs was knocked down in his career. (counting any they had at lighter weight classes as well. .i.e. Fitzsimmons when he was a middleweight would count)

Thought we could go in order. So I started with Corbett through Burns. I listed the knockdowns that I could find. I am sure some are missing; Fitzsimmons in particular.
If anyone can find more of these five, let us know. Also any form the next five, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Tunney and Schmeling. Later we can do the next five.
Obviously knockdowns aren't the end all be all, but this could be interesting and fun.

So lets do some research. Let me know what you find.

Anyway, here is what I have so far:

Corbett - Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Jeffries I, Jeffries II (2x). total of being knocked down 5 times in 6 fights.
Fitzsimmons - Corbett, Hall, Choynski, Jeffries I (4x) Jeffries II, Johnson, Lang. 10 times in 7 fights.
Jeffries - Johnson (3x) 3 times in 1 fight.
Hart - Hanarahan, Carter I, Carter II, Root I, Root II, OBrien, Ferguson, Willie (3x) Ross, Morris (3x). 14 times in 9 fights
Burns - Sholtreau, Schreck, McCune, Johnson, Pelkey, Beckett (2x). 7 times in 6 fights

Johnson -
Willard -
Dempsey -
Tunney -
Schmeling -

I was totally unaware that Sullivan KD Corbett. Can yo tell me what round? Was it serious, or flash?

Why not count Sullivan's one (vs. Corbett)?

[Bodyshot3]

Floyd's dance partner Johansson (and therefore also lineal) hit the deck and not just against Floyd...…….he was dropped by Brian London and was fortunate it was right at the end of their fight

[DrDuke]

Gene Tunney should be easy, just one, Dempsey II.

Which, (if I am correct, I am not sure), makes Tunney's composure just one more example of his mastery of the game. So many fighters (especially back then) would jump up too quickly (and with no mandatory eight count to protect them) would set themselves up to be knocked down again, quickly. E.g. if Carnera had taken an eight count (first KD) it is likely he would have gotten out of the round with only one KD.

Despite his inexperience, with being on the canvas, Tunney composed himself and handled the crisis as well as anyone could.

A good overview of Tunney's fighting approach and its advantages. However, I'm always forgetting, was he knocked down one more time or not. It was either only Dempsey II KD or just it with one more, I am not sure too.

[Ambling Alp II]

To answer boxbuzz's question -Any and all knockdowns. From their first fight to their last. Include being knocked down in another weight class. So Tommy Burns getting knocked down as a middleweight would count for example.

To answer APerno about the Sullivan -Corbett fight. Sullivan knocked down Corbett in the 17th round. I had read this in a biography about Sullivan many years ago. However, in many other books describing the fight, it was not mentioned. Then a few years ago. I found a newspaper article about the fight. It did mention the knockdown. From what I gather, it was a legitimate knockdown, but Corbett was able to shake it off, and was not that close to being stopped.

Anyway, hoping people can continue to look into fights, particularly from Corbett to Schmeling right now.
Biographies are often helpful.

[prewarboxing]

This is an excellent idea for a thread. The problem will come with trying to find out who got dropped in early contests before they were famous. How many times was Schmeling dropped against Gipsy Billy Daniels, for instance? I have reports for the bout but they are not that detailed. We need the German newspapers to properly answer the question. I am well up for helping with the research.

I will have to locate my 'biography' of Jack Sharkey I wrote when I was about 17, nearly 45 years ago. It is embarrassing to read now but I did have access to some rare magazines that covered some of his early bouts and they might now, finally, come in useful! For some reason, he was my favourite heavyweight champion back in 1974. One of the most forgotten of all ex champs but he took part in some great scraps and was the only man to box both Dempsey and Louis (off the top of my head. Or was King Levinsky another? I will have to check).

Miles Templeton.

[APerno]

Here is the relative excerpt from Corbett's biography. Funny he didn't mention being KD (not funny at all, by everyone's account Gentleman Jim had quite the ego.)

Corbett, James John, The Roar of the Crowd: the true tale of the rise and fall of a champion (1926)

I don't know if this excerpt is edited or not.


". . . In the twelfth round we clinched, and, with the referee's order, 'Break away,' I dropped my arms, when Sullivan let go a terrific right-hand swing from which I just barely got away; as it was it just grazed the top of my head. Some in the audience began to shout 'foul!' but I smiled and shook my head, to tell them, 'I don't want it that way.'

HE SKIPS ROUNDS 13 THROUGH 20

When we came up for the twenty-first round it looked as if the fight would last ten or fifteen rounds longer. Right away I went up to him, feinted with my left and hit him with a left-hand hook alongside the jaw pretty hard, and I saw his eyes roll. . . . Summoning all the reserve force I had left I let my guns go, right and left, with all the dynamite Nature had given me, and Sullivan stood dazed and rocking. So I set myself for an instant, put just 'a little more' in a right and hit him alongside the jaw. And he fell helpless on the ground, on his stomach, and rolled over on his back! The referee, his seconds and mine picked him up and put him in his corner; and the audience went wild."

[APerno]

This is interesting; check out the 7th paragraph. -- If this is true do we count low blows?

Source: WOODVILLE EXAMINER, VOLUME VIII, ISSUE 1059, 27 SEPTEMBER 1892

Where the hell is Woodville and what do they mean "taken from the Sydney Referee" ?

[APerno]

One more if I may: This is from the Stillwater Daily Gazette, MN. 09/08/92


_ Round 17 - Sullivan succeeded in getting a little left on Corbett's face. With this exception there was only fibbing during the round.

Anyone have any idea what "fibbing" might mean?

[prewarboxing]

This is interesting; check out the 7th paragraph. -- If this is true do we count low blows?

Source: WOODVILLE EXAMINER, VOLUME VIII, ISSUE 1059, 27 SEPTEMBER 1892

Where the hell is Woodville and what do they mean "taken from the Sydney Referee" ?

The Sydney Referee was an Australian sporting weekly, primarily concerned with boxing. I have a few copies from the 1920s. Extremely good for fight reports

Miles Templeton

[Tuan_Jim]

This is an excellent idea for a thread. The problem will come with trying to find out who got dropped in early contests before they were famous. How many times was Schmeling dropped against Gipsy Billy Daniels, for instance? I have reports for the bout but they are not that detailed. We need the German newspapers to properly answer the question. I am well up for helping with the research.

I will have to locate my 'biography' of Jack Sharkey I wrote when I was about 17, nearly 45 years ago. It is embarrassing to read now but I did have access to some rare magazines that covered some of his early bouts and they might now, finally, come in useful! For some reason, he was my favourite heavyweight champion back in 1974. One of the most forgotten of all ex champs but he took part in some great scraps and was the only man to box both Dempsey and Louis (off the top of my head. Or was King Levinsky another? I will have to check).

Miles Templeton.

Sharkey is one of my favourites. Something about his style and persona is very appealing.

I'm guessing that Patterson, Wladimir and Leon Spinks are going to come out on top here.

[Tuan_Jim]

One more if I may: This is from the Stillwater Daily Gazette, MN. 09/08/92


_ Round 17 - Sullivan succeeded in getting a little left on Corbett's face. With this exception there was only fibbing during the round.

Anyone have any idea what "fibbing" might mean?

In proper English (meaning British) it's a polite, now somewhat archaic term for lying. So I'm guessing the rest of the round comprised feinting, threatening but not following through, etc.

[gilgamesh]

I may be missing a few, but I know Joe Louis was dropped twice in the 1st Jersey Joe Walcott bout, He was dropped by Buddy Baer once I think, he was dropping in his title winning bout with Jim Braddock, he was dropped by Schmeling, and dropping by Marciano, and he was dropped by Tony Galento.

So that's at least 7 times for The Brown Bomber, and I'm probably forgetting some.

[gilgamesh]

The other Lewis, Lennox was only dropped twice that I'm aware of. Problem is, both were the end of the fight. Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. Anyone remember any other time Lennox was dropped?

Wlad was dropped quite a few times. 3 times by Sam Peter, 4 times by Corrie Sanders, once by Davarryl Williamson, once by Lamon Brewster, I've never seen the Ross Purrity fight, but I'd assume he dropped him at least once there huh? Dropped twice by AJ

So that's 12 by my count over 6 fights for Wlad

I'm just going off the top of my head here so anybody that can add to my lists with actual facts and figures feel free to do so.

[gilgamesh]

Frazier was dropped twice by Bonavena, 6 times by Foreman in the 1st fight, and I believe just once in the rematch though possibly twice I might be forgetting one.

So that's at least 9 knockdowns in 3 fights, but as far as I know those were the only fights he was dropped in.

[Bundana]

I believe Charles is the clear "winner" here, with at least 29 KD scored against him:

Logan 3
Fleeman 3
Matthews 1
Andrews 1
Holman 3
Marciano 3
Walcott 1
Marshall 8
Bivins 4
Bengali 1
Fitzpatrick 1

[Tuan_Jim]

Frazier was dropped twice by Bonavena, 6 times by Foreman in the 1st fight, and I believe just once in the rematch though possibly twice I might be forgetting one.

So that's at least 9 knockdowns in 3 fights, but as far as I know those were the only fights he was dropped in.

No, he was dropped in one of his first fights, possibly his debut.

[Onetimeonly]

Evander was dropped by Cooper, Bowe twice, toney. Is that it?

[DrDuke]

Evander was dropped by Cooper, Bowe twice, toney. Is that it?

Three times by Bowe. Once in the 1st, twice in the third.

[DrDuke]

Frazier was dropped twice by Bonavena, 6 times by Foreman in the 1st fight, and I believe just once in the rematch though possibly twice I might be forgetting one.

So that's at least 9 knockdowns in 3 fights, but as far as I know those were the only fights he was dropped in.

No, he was dropped in one of his first fights, possibly his debut.

Really? I've always thought, he was knocked down only by Bonavena and Foreman. Who else dropped him?