Boxing Historians

[kmanno]

Evening All,
I'm not a boxing historian by trade...rather a historian in the academic world teaching World History.
I've been a fan of boxing since the mid-1960's and have certainly experienced eras come and go...perhaps by sheer age I'm somewhat of an amateur historian of the sport.
With Bert Sugar, Nat Fleischer and others now gone...who are people turning to as living historians of boxing? Who will carry on this tradition?

It would be great to have the living historians get together and share with those younger...maybe even spark some interest to become a historian of the sport...

The history of the sport needs to be preserved...oral histories passed on...as a teacher and archivist I truly understand the need to preserve the history for future generations.

KM

[gilgamesh]

Many of us fans are Historians to one degree or another I suppose. I have several books on Boxing, and an almost encyclopedic knowledge of certain fighters, and certain eras so I don't know what it takes to be a Boxing historian, but I don't see any reason why I couldn't hold my own in a conversation with the best of 'em, and add my own bits of insight as well.

In my early days of Boxing fandom I read all kinds of Ring Magazines cover to cover, and picked up a lot of sh*t that way, and I've read the IBHOF book cover to cover twice too. Which is about as in-depth a book on the greats as you could find I'd think. With records, and all that of all the inductees.

But yeah I don't know who is revered in the sports world anymore as THE guy when it comes to Boxing history. Maybe Dan Rafael has inherited the throne? Larry Merchant? I don't know.

Al Bernstein knows a thing or two about Boxing, and he's quite approachable and friendly. I chat him up from time to time on twitter.

[overhand_right]

Herbert G. Goldman is alive and kicking and probably the leading historian today. And he goes right back to The Ring in the 70s and Boxing Illustrated (under Sugar) in the late 80s and 90s. He compiled so many of the great record books.

[evrenb]

Regional historians like Alex Daley and Miles Tempelton who both post on this forum though their posts usually get swamped by hypothetical matches...
Their knowledge of early British boxing is un paralleled .
Harold Alderman of course too

[HomicideHenry]

Adam Pollack is probably my favorite boxing writer. Idk if he'll continue his "IN THE RING" series but they're damned good.

[prewarboxing]

Evening All,
I'm not a boxing historian by trade...rather a historian in the academic world teaching World History.
I've been a fan of boxing since the mid-1960's and have certainly experienced eras come and go...perhaps by sheer age I'm somewhat of an amateur historian of the sport.
With Bert Sugar, Nat Fleischer and others now gone...who are people turning to as living historians of boxing? Who will carry on this tradition?

It would be great to have the living historians get together and share with those younger...maybe even spark some interest to become a historian of the sport...

The history of the sport needs to be preserved...oral histories passed on...as a teacher and archivist I truly understand the need to preserve the history for future generations.

KM

Yes I do post on here every so often. It is a shame that the History section is littered with so many ‘what-if’ matchups. These discussions seem to form the basis of this forum and I find then pretty tedious because nearly all of them degenerate into the same arguments when comparing men of different eras.

That said, there are some really interesting posts on here, if one sorts the wheat from the chaff.

It is good that kmanno has flagged up the need for historians to work together and I agree with him. When I started out on my research into the history of British boxing, around 45 years ago, there were quite a number of historians, most of then now gone, who helped me. At the time, records were maintained by these men on paper. No-one used computers and there was no internet. This has changed radically over time and we now have BoxRec, a wonderful resource for old-time records, especially from the States.

I am pleased to say that good old Harold Alderman is still around and he has been a great inspiration, and a great help to me. Like him, my interest remains exclusively on British boxing and I have spent very many years researching it deeply. I have by far the largest database of British results in existence and my ambition is now to obtain a report for all of the tournaments that took place in Britain between 1900 and 1970. I am pleased to say that I am well on the way to completing this task. I have been visiting the British Library at Boston Spa every week now for the past four and a half years and I have worked my way through most of the regional newspapers in the UK for the period 1900 to 1960. I have digitally photographed virtually all references to boxing in these newspapers and it has been a mammoth task. I well agree with kmanno that it is important to preserve history in all its formats, and my specialty lies in the collation of accurate records and having digital documents from original sources to back up the results that appear in the records. I personally own virtually all of the copies of Boxing News in hard copy from 1909 onwards and have also taken digital copies of every page of the other important boxing journals that have appeared in the UK during the last century including the Mirror of Life, the Sporting Life and Boxing World.

I am always happy to assist fellow researchers and to encourage others to get involved in the preservation of the history of the sport. My next project will be to write a definitive history of British boxing in the twentieth century. It will be my ‘Magnus Opus’ if you like, and the culmination of a lifetime of research. I will be seeking assistance and contributions from a wide variety of sources and may need some help!

Miles Templeton

[Controversial]

I have by far the largest database of British results in existence and my ambition is now to obtain a report for all of the tournaments that took place in Britain between 1900 and 1970. I am pleased to say that I am well on the way to completing this task. I have been visiting the British Library at Boston Spa every week now for the past four and a half years and I have worked my way through most of the regional newspapers in the UK for the period 1900 to 1960. I have digitally photographed virtually all references to boxing in these newspapers and it has been a mammoth task. I well agree with kmanno that it is important to preserve history in all its formats, and my specialty lies in the collation of accurate records and having digital documents from original sources to back up the results that appear in the records. I personally own virtually all of the copies of Boxing News in hard copy from 1909 onwards and have also taken digital copies of every page of the other important boxing journals that have appeared in the UK during the last century including the Mirror of Life, the Sporting Life and Boxing World.

I am always happy to assist fellow researchers and to encourage others to get involved in the preservation of the history of the sport. My next project will be to write a definitive history of British boxing in the twentieth century. It will be my ‘Magnus Opus’ if you like, and the culmination of a lifetime of research. I will be seeking assistance and contributions from a wide variety of sources and may need some help!

Miles Templeton

Hi Miles, how many bouts do you think you have that aren'y on boxrec? Keep up the good work mate

[kmanno]

Miles,
I commend you on your work...a large task to compile such records. The digital age has given us a great opportunity to enter our research and records in a format that can be saved for future generations...but I would agree there is still a lot out there in somebody's notebook that needs to be scanned/copied into a
database...

Perhaps there needs to be some curated online database dedicated to the history of the sport...organized in such a fashion to aid fans, historians, and researchers. I don't think there is an easy answer here...

Kent

[kmanno]

Morning,

Many of us fans are Historians to one degree or another I suppose. I have several books on Boxing, and an almost encyclopedic knowledge of certain fighters, and certain eras so I don't know what it takes to be a Boxing historian, but I don't see any reason why I couldn't hold my own in a conversation with the best of 'em, and add my own bits of insight as well.

--I think you are right...there are some eras we know quite a bit about...or even certain boxers we share an interest in...Conversation is the key here...and the sharing of our knowledge....

In my early days of Boxing fandom I read all kinds of Ring Magazines cover to cover, and picked up a lot of sh*t that way, and I've read the IBHOF book cover to cover twice too. Which is about as in-depth a book on the greats as you could find I'd think. With records, and all that of all the inductees.

--Ring Magazine....I can relate to that...

But yeah I don't know who is revered in the sports world anymore as THE guy when it comes to Boxing history. Maybe Dan Rafael has inherited the throne? Larry Merchant? I don't know.

--You might be right about these two fellows...

Al Bernstein knows a thing or two about Boxing, and he's quite approachable and friendly. I chat him up from time to time on twitter.

--Follow him on twitter...he seems to be on top of things....

KM

[prewarboxing]

Hi Miles, how many bouts do you think you have that aren'y on boxrec? Keep up the good work mate

I don't know how many UK results there are on Boxrec for the twentieth century but I would suggest somewhere around 150,000 is likely, but I am only guessing. I have 480,000 between 1899 and 1999 for the UK. To give some sort of an idea about how much boxing there was back in the 1930s, I have 1,917 British results for the month of January 1930. This is considerably more than there are for the UK in the whole of 1983, when there were 1,164 (including Brits fighting abroad). Finding them has been a colossal, but extremely rewarding task. I have the relevant newspaper cuttings for virtually all of the shows in January 1930, of which there were 404.

Hope this helps

Miles Templeton

[Controversial]

I don't know how many UK results there are on Boxrec for the twentieth century but I would suggest somewhere around 150,000 is likely, but I am only guessing. I have 480,000 between 1899 and 1999 for the UK. To give some sort of an idea about how much boxing there was back in the 1930s, I have 1,917 British results for the month of January 1930. This is considerably more than there are for the UK in the whole of 1983, when there were 1,164 (including Brits fighting abroad). Finding them has been a colossal, but extremely rewarding task. I have the relevant newspaper cuttings for virtually all of the shows in January 1930, of which there were 404.

Hope this helps

Miles Templeton

Wow thousands then!!

[nobleart1978]

Every copy of Boxing News

Where do you keep so much compressed paper ?

I've got a few complete years bound in nice leather. They take up some space though...

[BitPlayer]

Adam Pollack, Steven Compton, and Matt Donnellon have all done really good work.

Senya has done loads of great research, which he shared on various forums etc.

Tracy Callis's website Cyberboxingzone is a great resource.

[BitPlayer]

I don't consider myself a historian, but I've done some research.

This is easilly the best I've done.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=226698

[chrisjs1985]

It is a shame that the History section is littered with so many ‘what-if’ matchups. These discussions seem to form the basis of this forum and I find then pretty tedious because nearly all of them degenerate into the same arguments when comparing men of different eras.

That said, there are some really interesting posts on here, if one sorts the wheat from the chaff.


Miles Templeton

Amen. I feel you on this. There's two boxing history forums I post on and both of them is about 75% mythical matches, often repeats or fighters that are almost 100 years apart. I personally don't get that fascination. It's almost the weakest form of boxing discussion and is not historical.

What YOU do IS significant and brilliant though.

[prewarboxing]

Amen. I feel you on this. There's two boxing history forums I post on and both of them is about 75% mythical matches, often repeats or fighters that are almost 100 years apart. I personally don't get that fascination. It's almost the weakest form of boxing discussion and is not historical.

What YOU do IS significant and brilliant though.

Thanks Chris. I first realised the value of what I do, preserving boxing history, in about 1976. I was 19 and I had spent a few years in Newcastle Central Library, getting old boxing results out of the Newcastle newspapers. I went along to a few meetings of the then Gateshead Ex-Boxers Association and got to know an ex-fighter by the name of Bombardier McLeod. He was a first world war vet and he boxed during the early 1920s.

He lived near me and we used to get the bus together to the meetings. I started to research his career for him as a surprise. When I had finished this I presented him with a booklet of cuttings at one of the meetings. He broke down in tears. Turns out he had lost everything relating to his ring career when his house received a direct hit from the Luftwaffe in 1942. He was so pleased to see his ring exploits again in print after so long.

What he didn't tell me was that it was not only his scrapbook that he had lost. His wife was also killed and he had never got over her loss, even after 35 years.

Such a wonderful old man and a hell of a banger in his day.

Now that's history!

Miles Templeton.

[Controversial]

Thanks Chris. I first realised the value of what I do, preserving boxing history, in about 1976. I was 19 and I had spent a few years in Newcastle Central Library, getting old boxing results out of the Newcastle newspapers. I went along to a few meetings of the then Gateshead Ex-Boxers Association and got to know an ex-fighter by the name of Bombardier McLeod. He was a first world war vet and he boxed during the early 1920s.

He lived near me and we used to get the bus together to the meetings. I started to research his career for him as a surprise. When I had finished this I presented him with a booklet of cuttings at one of the meetings. He broke down in tears. Turns out he had lost everything relating to his ring career when his house received a direct hit from the Luftwaffe in 1942. He was so pleased to see his ring exploits again in print after so long.

What he didn't tell me was that it was not only his scrapbook that he had lost. His wife was also killed and he had never got over her loss, even after 35 years.

Such a wonderful old man and a hell of a banger in his day.

Now that's history!

Miles Templeton.

Now thats a story !!

[prewarboxing]

Now thats a story !!

His record on boxrec is 0-2 both losses by KO. His actual record is 19-15. Boxed between 1919 and 1934. It is so nice to be able to publicly acknowledge him after over 40 years. He was a real gentleman of the old school. I will post his full record shortly.

Miles Templeton.

[Controversial]

His record on boxrec is 0-2 both losses by KO. His actual record is 19-15. Boxed between 1919 and 1934. It is so nice to be able to publicly acknowledge him after over 40 years. He was a real gentleman of the old school. I will post his full record shortly.

Miles Templeton.

Do some of these old timers actually know what their records were or did some fight so often they didn't keep tabs?

[prewarboxing]

Do some of these old timers actually know what their records were or did some fight so often they didn't keep tabs?

Nail on head. These guys didn't give a feck about their records. They were fighting to put food on the table. No-one in those days gave a toss about keeping their '0'. Proper fighters. Fight anyone, any time, if the purse was right. Virtually none of them kept records at all. No-one else did either. The records I am producing for them are probably the first detailed record for them that there has ever been, apart from what good old Harold Alderman has done, and Vic Hardwicke before him. There are other historians that also deserve a mention, all now dead, Graham Grant, Brian Strickland, Walter Tait and a few others that I used to correspond with.

In the States, Luckett Davis stands out as another exceptional historian. Don't know if he is still about but he was a proper researcher years ago.

Miles Templeton.

[chrisjs1985]

Thanks Chris. I first realised the value of what I do, preserving boxing history, in about 1976. I was 19 and I had spent a few years in Newcastle Central Library, getting old boxing results out of the Newcastle newspapers. I went along to a few meetings of the then Gateshead Ex-Boxers Association and got to know an ex-fighter by the name of Bombardier McLeod. He was a first world war vet and he boxed during the early 1920s.

He lived near me and we used to get the bus together to the meetings. I started to research his career for him as a surprise. When I had finished this I presented him with a booklet of cuttings at one of the meetings. He broke down in tears. Turns out he had lost everything relating to his ring career when his house received a direct hit from the Luftwaffe in 1942. He was so pleased to see his ring exploits again in print after so long.

What he didn't tell me was that it was not only his scrapbook that he had lost. His wife was also killed and he had never got over her loss, even after 35 years.

Such a wonderful old man and a hell of a banger in his day.

Now that's history!

Miles Templeton.

Wow. Now that's great researching

[prewarboxing]

Here is the record that I promised for Bombardier McLeod of Newcastle. A middleweight, boxed between 1919 and 1935, won 19 lost 15

1919

Jul 28 Billy Benson (Gateshead) WRTD1(6) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 30/07/1919 page 37
Aug 2 Jim Ritson (Byker) WKO1(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 06/08/1919 page 59
Aug 9 Charlie Roberts (Consett) LKO5(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 13/08/1919 page 84
Sep 13 Johnny Horton (Newcastle) LPTS(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 17/09/1919 page 203
Sep 27 Fred Ritson (Gateshead) WKO5(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 01/10/1919 page 242
Nov 24 Fred Ritson (Gateshead) LPTS(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal

1920

Jan 19 George Gillis (West Hartlepool) WRTD5(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal
Mar 15 Fred Harris (Jarrow) WRSF7(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal
Mar 19 Jimmy Britt (Walker) LRSF3(10) Palace, Annfield Plain
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal
Mar 26 Jimmy Shearon (Glasgow) LRTD(10) Palace, Annfield Plain
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal
Apr 3 Bob Fox (Hebburn) WRTD2(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 07/04/1920 page 196
May 3 Tommy Moran (Newcastle) LRTD3(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal
May 10 Fred Ritson (Gateshead) WRSF2(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal
May 22 Tom King (Hebburn) WRTD3(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 26/05/1920 page 330
Aug 23 Sam Fox (Newcastle) LPTS(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 01/09/1920 page 75
Sep 13 Fred Ritson (Gateshead) WRSF1 Holmeside, Sunderland
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal
Sep 20 Sam Fox (Newcastle) WKO2(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 22/09/1920 page 120
Sep 27 Johnny Horton (Newcastle) WDSQ4(10) Tyneside Stadium, Wallsend
Source: Boxing 06/10/1920 pages 157 and 158
Oct 2 Mick Bradley (Earlestown) LRTD2(15) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 06/10/1920 page 157
Oct 25 Johnny Melia (Oldham) WKO4(15) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 27/10/1920 pages 200, 220
Dec 11 Tommy Summers (Middlesbrough) WKO2(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 15/12/1920 page 339
Dec 31 Jimmy Cox (Wigan) LRTD5(15) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 05/01/1921 page 388

1921

Jan 31 Seaman Bean (Mansfield) WKO1(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal
Mar 7 Len Brooks (Horwich) WKO3(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal
Mar 19 Jim Temple (Gateshead) LPTS(15) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 23/03/1921 page 90
May 14 Mick Harney (Jarrow) WKO1(15) Victory Casino, South Shields
Source: Boxing 18/05/1921 page 222
Jun 4 Tommy Bury (Darwen) WRSF7(15) Victory Casino, South Shields
Source: Boxing 08/06/1921 page 268
Jun 6 Tommy Moran (Newcastle) WPTS(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 08/06/1921 page 264
Jul 9 Bobby Burns (Felling) LKO1(15) Victory Casino, South Shields
Source: Boxing 13/07/1921 pages 355 and 356
Aug 6 Tom Hughes (Sunderland) LKO8(15) Victory Casino, South Shields
Source: Boxing 10/08/1921 pages 421 and 422
Aug 27 Stanley Ketchell (Annan) LRTD6(15) Holmeside, Sunderland
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal
Oct 8 Pat McGurk (Jarrow) LKO1(15) Victory Casino, South Shields
Source: Boxing 12/10/1921 page 140

1923

Jul 9 Billy Forrest (North Shields) LRSF3(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 18/07/1923 pages 204 and 205

1934

Apr 4 Charlie Minto (North Shields) WPTS New St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Newcastle Daily Journal


Miles Templeton

[nobleart1978]

Miles,

Where do you store over 100 complete years of Boxing News ?

[prewarboxing]

Miles,

Where do you store over 100 complete years of Boxing News ?

I have got a pretty big study! I have got most of them at least twice. A lot are bound but I've got piles of loose copies all over the damn place.

Miles Templeton

[HomicideHenry]

I'd love going through that collection. There's an article I've been trying to find for years, about the Tongan Torpedo nearly fought Uriah Burton in an illegal bareknuckle fight that was allegedly covered by BOXING NEWS.