Tell me how GGG's career ranks above Wilder's

[Enlightened-One]

GGG’s resume lacks wins over top-ten world-rated opposition.

No it doesn't. As I've already pointed out. Every one of his wins isn't over a contender obviously, but he beat his share of 'em.

He doesn't have the most stellar career ever resume wise, but he did fight and beat numerous contenders.

For the purpose of illustration, let’s use The RING ratings as the barometer to gauge whether opponents are world-rated or not, since these rankings are usually consistent in nature with ESPN’s and TBRB’s…

GGG has been universally-considered a top-ten world-rated middleweight since June 2008 (as per the WBC’s & the WBA’s rankings), but only ten of his 31 bouts he’s participated in since that date were against opponents rated amongst the top-ten at 160lbs by The RNG:

• Grzegorz Proksa
• Matthew Macklin
• Daniel Geale
• Marco Antonio Rubio
• Martin Murray
• David Lemieux
• Daniel Jacobs
• Sergiy Derevyanchenko
• Canelo

Only five of those ten fights were against top-five world-rated opponents or current/future world champions at 160lbs (or above): David Lemieux, Daniel Geale, Daniel Jacobs and Canelo.

Gennadiy has only competed in thirteen bouts for legitimate versions of the world middleweight title (i.e. WBA super, WBC or IBF straps), since eleven of his championship bouts were for secondary belts (i.e. WBA interim or regular, which no one regards as credible titles).

To provide these facts some context (to keep this post within the realms of the topic of this thread)…

Deontay Wilder has been considered a top-ten world-rated fighter for half the amount of time that GGG has, but he’s somehow managed to compete in twelve legitimate world heavyweight title fights, seven of his bouts were against top-ten world-rated opposition and five of his opponents were former/current world champions.

It seems we agree about GGG underachieving (in terms of resume accomplishments), but it would be wrong to claim that he holds a lot of wins over credible universally-regarded top-ten world-rated opposition.

[margaret thatcher]

Wilder's best 3 beaten opponents in his 43 or whatever wins are Ortiz, Stiverne (not the shot version who hadn't fought in like 2.5 years or something), and big Dom probably

[margaret thatcher]

No it doesn't. As I've already pointed out. Every one of his wins isn't over a contender obviously, but he beat his share of 'em.

He doesn't have the most stellar career ever resume wise, but he did fight and beat numerous contenders.

For the purpose of illustration, let’s use The RING ratings as the barometer to gauge whether opponents are world-rated or not, since these rankings are usually consistent in nature with ESPN’s and TBRB’s…

GGG has been universally-considered a top-ten world-rated middleweight since June 2008 (as per the WBC’s & the WBA’s rankings), but only ten of his 31 bouts he’s participated in since that date were against opponents rated amongst the top-ten at 160lbs by The RNG:

• Grzegorz Proksa
• Matthew Macklin
• Daniel Geale
• Marco Antonio Rubio
• Martin Murray
• David Lemieux
• Daniel Jacobs
• Sergiy Derevyanchenko
• Canelo

Only five of those ten fights were against top-five world-rated opponents or current/future world champions at 160lbs (or above): David Lemieux, Daniel Geale, Daniel Jacobs and Canelo.

Gennadiy has only competed in thirteen bouts for legitimate versions of the world middleweight title (i.e. WBA super, WBC or IBF straps), since eleven of his championship bouts were for secondary belts (i.e. WBA interim or regular, which no one regards as credible titles).

To provide these facts some context (to keep this post within the realms of the topic of this thread)…

Deontay Wilder has been considered a top-ten world-rated fighter for half the amount of time that GGG has, but he’s somehow managed to compete in twelve legitimate world heavyweight title fights, seven of his bouts were against top-ten world-rated opposition and five of his opponents were former/current world champions.

It seems we agree about GGG underachieving (in terms of resume accomplishments), but it would be wrong to claim that he holds a lot of wins over credible universally-regarded top-ten world-rated opposition.

When did GGG become the top WBA mw belt holder? What fight was his first with it

[AntonioMartin]

They are similar..only time will tell.

[margaret thatcher]

The GOAT Wangheng Menayothin has more 'legit' title fight wins than both these scrubs

[Enlightened-One]

For the purpose of illustration, let’s use The RING ratings as the barometer to gauge whether opponents are world-rated or not, since these rankings are usually consistent in nature with ESPN’s and TBRB’s…

GGG has been universally-considered a top-ten world-rated middleweight since June 2008 (as per the WBC’s & the WBA’s rankings), but only ten of his 31 bouts he’s participated in since that date were against opponents rated amongst the top-ten at 160lbs by The RNG:

• Grzegorz Proksa
• Matthew Macklin
• Daniel Geale
• Marco Antonio Rubio
• Martin Murray
• David Lemieux
• Daniel Jacobs
• Sergiy Derevyanchenko
• Canelo

Only five of those ten fights were against top-five world-rated opponents or current/future world champions at 160lbs (or above): David Lemieux, Daniel Geale, Daniel Jacobs and Canelo.

Gennadiy has only competed in thirteen bouts for legitimate versions of the world middleweight title (i.e. WBA super, WBC or IBF straps), since eleven of his championship bouts were for secondary belts (i.e. WBA interim or regular, which no one regards as credible titles).

To provide these facts some context (to keep this post within the realms of the topic of this thread)…

Deontay Wilder has been considered a top-ten world-rated fighter for half the amount of time that GGG has, but he’s somehow managed to compete in twelve legitimate world heavyweight title fights, seven of his bouts were against top-ten world-rated opposition and five of his opponents were former/current world champions.

It seems we agree about GGG underachieving (in terms of resume accomplishments), but it would be wrong to claim that he holds a lot of wins over credible universally-regarded top-ten world-rated opposition.

When did GGG become the top WBA mw belt holder? What fight was his first with it

GGG captured the interim version of the WBA world middleweight title when he defeated Nilson Julio Tapia in 2010 and was elevated (between bouts) to becoming the regular titleholder the same year.

It wasn’t until 2014 that GGG was elevated from the regular titleholder to becoming the WBA’s super champion, once again this elevation in his championship status occurred outside the ring.

Coincidentally, the WBC also chose to elevate GGG from being their interim to their normal champion (like the WBA did outside the ring) during 2015.

[margaret thatcher]

Ah okay. Personally I would still rank his 'pre legit' win over Macklin higher than possibly all of Wilder's wins except Ortiz I guess, and Proksa is probably no worse than a lot of the defenses. Gabe Rosado prob no worse than Molina, Arreola, Stiverne 2 either, Curt Stevens too would be right up there with most of them

Tbh, they both have puffed up title defense numbers, the total number is something you gotta take only so seriously

[Enlightened-One]

Ah okay. Personally I would still rank his 'pre legit' win over Macklin higher than possibly all of Wilder's wins except Ortiz...

Well that’s your prerogative to feel that way and I’m not going to disagree with you, but technically-speaking, the following claims are factually-accurate:

• When Gennadiy faced Matthew Macklin, the Brit was only rated 7th at middleweight by The RING, he was a former welterweight, one-time failed world title challenger and entered the ring against GGG having lost two of his previous three bouts.

• Dominic Breazeale, Luis Ortiz and Bermane Stiverne were all rated 7th or better by The RING at the time they faced Deontay Wilder.

Tbh, they both have puffed up title defense numbers...

We agree on this.

Just to make myself clear though; all I’ve done is cite facts.

I’m actually a fan of GGG’s, but I refuse to allow my personal bias to compel me to dishonestly embellish his career accomplishments, because I feel that poor business decisions (such as whom he’s worked with as managers, promoters and trainers) have resulted in him underachieving.

And I was delighted to see him recently take control over his own career.

[margaret thatcher]

lol, Macklin had fought below middleweight only once in the previous 10 years before their fight, and had weighed above MW several times. Yet omg Chris Algeiri has been at 147 for 2 years, he's a legit welter!!

He'd also been badly robbed vs Sturm (the guy who had that super title didn't he) and was pretty much even on the cards after 11 rounds or so vs the elite Martinez. That means a lot to me compared to the guys Wilder was defending against in 'legit title fights' like Eric Molina, Arreola, etc

7th isn't bad anyway, his rating probably would've been higher had he gotten the win over Sturm too. Even going purely by that number, this 'non legit' title fight would rank above at most 2 of the guys Wilder beat, and GGG crushed this guy too. So you're pretty much arriving right where I am

[Enlightened-One]

lol, Macklin had fought below middleweight only once in the previous 10 years before their fight, and had weighed above MW several times.

I get what you’re saying and in a way I agree with you, but I feel the size disparity between GGG and Macklin was significant. The Brit seemed incredibly small (height and build) in comparison to Gennadiy when they both met.

He'd also been badly robbed vs Sturm (the guy who had that super title didn't he) and was pretty much even on the cards after 11 rounds or so vs the elite Martinez.

I felt that Macklin might have either been even or a point or so ahead of Sturm when I scored the bout, but there were several rounds which were tricky to score (that were always going to be awarded to the hometown champion), especially considering the Brit was competing on foreign soil, so the outcome wasn’t unexpected. It seemed to me to be too close to be perceived as a “robbery”.

7th isn't bad anyway...

I agree.

[margaret thatcher]

Eh, I didn't see too much of a size difference and Macklin was about a decade into fighting as a middleweight, far more used to that weight than for example Algeiri and Peterson would be a couple years into moving to welter. Macklin out punched, out landed, out fought Sturm and no doubt deserved to win. Combine that and fighting pretty much even with Martinez for so many rounds and it put him up pretty high. Given who Wilder has beaten it's pretty easy to make the destruction of Macklin better than virtually all those Wilder wins

So whether you count those Geej title defenses as legit or not it doesn't really make too much of a different imo in measuring his career to Wilder's , if we are going just on non-regular/interim title fight wins our boi Wangek tops both these dudes. It's the substance that really counts. I think whichever way you go though, their careers are more similar than people would like to think

[Enlightened-One]

Eh, I didn't see too much of a size difference [between Golovkin] and Macklin...

[margaret thatcher]

Eh, see that type of difference all the time within divisions, Macklin had been at mw for 10 years, had performed well vs Sturm and Martinez, and had fought above the limit more than he fought below

Now Chris Algeiri, poor guy had only been a welter for 2 years right

[Enlightened-One]

Eh, see that type of difference all the time within divisions, Macklin had been at mw for 10 years and had fought above the limit more than he fought below

My eyeballs tell me something different. GGG seemed much bigger in height and build than Macklin.

Anyway, we’ll agree to disagree and move on.

[gilgamesh]

No it doesn't. As I've already pointed out. Every one of his wins isn't over a contender obviously, but he beat his share of 'em.

He doesn't have the most stellar career ever resume wise, but he did fight and beat numerous contenders.

For the purpose of illustration, let’s use The RING ratings as the barometer to gauge whether opponents are world-rated or not, since these rankings are usually consistent in nature with ESPN’s and TBRB’s…

GGG has been universally-considered a top-ten world-rated middleweight since June 2008 (as per the WBC’s & the WBA’s rankings), but only ten of his 31 bouts he’s participated in since that date were against opponents rated amongst the top-ten at 160lbs by The RNG:

• Grzegorz Proksa
• Matthew Macklin
• Daniel Geale
• Marco Antonio Rubio
• Martin Murray
• David Lemieux
• Daniel Jacobs
• Sergiy Derevyanchenko
• Canelo

Only five of those ten fights were against top-five world-rated opponents or current/future world champions at 160lbs (or above): David Lemieux, Daniel Geale, Daniel Jacobs and Canelo.

Gennadiy has only competed in thirteen bouts for legitimate versions of the world middleweight title (i.e. WBA super, WBC or IBF straps), since eleven of his championship bouts were for secondary belts (i.e. WBA interim or regular, which no one regards as credible titles).

To provide these facts some context (to keep this post within the realms of the topic of this thread)…

Deontay Wilder has been considered a top-ten world-rated fighter for half the amount of time that GGG has, but he’s somehow managed to compete in twelve legitimate world heavyweight title fights, seven of his bouts were against top-ten world-rated opposition and five of his opponents were former/current world champions.

It seems we agree about GGG underachieving (in terms of resume accomplishments), but it would be wrong to claim that he holds a lot of wins over credible universally-regarded top-ten world-rated opposition.

You said "His resume lacks wins over Top 10 contenders"

Then you list that basically 25% of his Professional opponents have been Top 10

Then you sh*t on him because only 4 of them were Top 5.

Move the goalpost much?

You just proved with your own words that his resume is better than Wilder's. I rest my case. You rest yours too, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

GGG had a lot of hype. People had him knocking out hopkins and hagler when he was on his roll.... but when he stepped up his level of competition against the top tier it has been clear he isnt on the hopkins or hagler level. People can argue his age but hopkins was schooling tarver and pavlik and beating pascal and winky wright when he was older than ggg.

Hes still exciting and really good. Hes fun too watch i just think the hbo hype machine oversold so there is backlash

How do you rate Geej and Wilder's careers head to head?

Ggg has more solid wins. I think luis ortiz is skilled but hes never won a title and was an old man when they fought. Hell he has blood pressure problems

I dont think GGG is on Hopkins level at mw but there is no way of definitively proving that

[Enlightened-One]

You said "His resume lacks wins over Top 10 contenders"

Then you list that basically 25% of his Professional opponents have been Top 10

Then you sh*t on him because only 4 of them were Top 5.

Move the goalpost much?

You just proved with your own words that his resume is better than Wilder's. I rest my case. You rest yours too, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

These were my actual words, which you quoted and challenged:

GGG’s resume lacks wins over top-ten world-rated opposition.

I also stated that only 32% of the bouts he competed in since his arrival on the world scene in June 2008 (10 from 31 fights) were against top-ten world-rated opposition. And I also listed the names of nine fighters that were involved in these bouts.

I never mentioned the word "contender", you did.

For the record, I feel that Golovkin’s overall resume is better than Wilder’s. And I have never suggested otherwise.

However, I feel that GGG has underachieved (due to poor business decisions) and his accomplishments aren’t far superior than Wilder’s (since they are statistically very similar in nature).

[gilgamesh]

Oh wow. Top Ten rated vs Top Ten Contender.

Such different meanings

You're an assclown who obviously can't admit he's wrong. Ever. Even when it's right there to be seen.

[Enlightened-One]

Oh wow. Top Ten rated vs Top Ten Contender.

Such different meanings

Yes they do have completely different meanings.

Up until very recently (18 months ago), Fres Oquendo was technically regarded as a top-ten contender (based on the official rankings for one of the sports governing bodies).

However, it's been more than five years since he was regarded as a top-ten world-rated fighter.

Simply put, if you review the rankings of the WBA, WBC, IBF & WBO, you'll find names for lots of top-ten contenders that aren't considered top-ten world-rated fighters.

[gilgamesh]

Just admit you were wrong and stop embarrassing yourself.

This is why nobody likes you.

I'm wrong on the forum a lot. I admit it. Because I'm a grown ass man, who is aware he can be wrong sometimes.

[Enlightened-One]

Just admit you were wrong and stop embarrassing yourself.

This is why nobody likes you.

I'm wrong on the forum a lot. I admit it. Because I'm a grown ass man, who is aware he can be wrong sometimes.

I’d argue that the following GGG opponents (since his arrival on the world scene since June 2008) weren’t classed amongst the top-ten world-rated middleweights by The RING:

• Vanes Martirosyan
• Steve Rolls
• Kell Brook
• Dominic Wade
• Willie Monroe Jr.
• Osumanu Adama
• Curtis Stevens
• Nobuhiro Ishida
• Gabriel Rosado
• Makoto Fuchigami
• Lajuan Simon
• Kassim Ouma
• Nilson Julio Tapia
• Milton Nunez
• Mikhail Makarov
• John Anderson Carvalho de Souza
• Anthony Greenidge
• Javier Alberto Mamani
• Malik Dziarra
• Amar Amari

Being an officially sanctioned world title contender doesn't necessarily mean they're also classed amongst the top-ten world-rated fighters of their respective weight division.

And for the record, I never used the word “contender” in any of my previous posts in this thread.

Do you honestly disagree?

[gilgamesh]

World rated and contender means the same goddamn thing you insufferable jackass.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

EO did you think GGG deserved the decision against Canelo?

[Enlightened-One]

EO did you think GGG deserved the decision against Canelo?

If there was a fight that GGG deserved to win, it was the his first bout against Canelo.

For me, their rematch, whilst close, was correctly awarded to Canelo.

[Enlightened-One]

World rated and contender means the same goddamn thing you insufferable jackass.

OK, we disagree about the definitions of the word “contender” and the phrase “top-ten world-rated”. That’s off-topic anyway.

Let’s move on and see if you have enough discipline and integrity to stick to the subject matter of this thread.

I’m arguing that GGG has only ever faced nine top-ten world-rated opponents, which equates to ten bouts from the 31 fights he’s competed in since June 2008.

Do you either agree or disagree?