Is Muhammad Ali in Everybody's 'Top 10'

[margaret thatcher]

Ah, I just assume when someone says a guy isn't top 10 that they actually have a top 10, my mistake

[oogiebe]

Ah, I just assume when someone says a guy isn't top 10 that they actually have a top 10, my mistake

I'm sure I have a top ten/twenty in one of these threads. Go dig it up if my opinion means so much to you lately. I know I posted a list "not necessarily in order" a few times.

[margaret thatcher]

Simple questions triggering you a bit lately

[oogiebe]

Simple questions triggering you a bit lately

I may not recover.

[margaret thatcher]

You can do it oogs

[oogiebe]

You can do it oogs

Nah...going to my safe room.

[Ambling Alp II]

It makes no sense to rank people by how long their career is. For example, if one guy has one gigantic win in 33 years, he should not be rated higher than another guy who had 4 gigantic wins in 8 years.

Ultimately, the only thing Leonard's career lacks in 20-30 or so automatic wins against stiffs. If his career record was say 56-3-1 instead of 36-3-1, a lot more people would have him in the top 10.

Not for me. he accomplished plenty and I don't rate guys by their resume alone. He was a great fighter, but not top 10. Top 15-20 absolutely.

Why not? What is the argument against him?

[oogiebe]

Never really put this together before, although had some thoughts through the years. Anyway...

1-Sugar Ray Robinson
2-Muhammad Ali
3-Joe Louis
4-Henry Armstrong
5-Harry Greb
6-Benny Leonard
7-Tony Canzanari
8-Carlos Monzon
9-Ruben Olivares
10-Floyd Mayweather.

Quick list. I'm sure I could be convinced otherwise to some extent.

[margaret thatcher]

[oogiebe]

Not for me. he accomplished plenty and I don't rate guys by their resume alone. He was a great fighter, but not top 10. Top 15-20 absolutely.

Why not? What is the argument against him?

I rate others better than him. SO it's not against Ray, but more for the others.

[Ambling Alp II]

He beat better fighters than most of these guys.
He was more consistent than them.
He looked great on film. No way all ten of these looked better on film.
He along with Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Langford, Ali and Charles are about as rock solid as you can get.

[oogiebe]

He beat better fighters than most of these guys.
He was more consistent than them.
He looked great on film. No way all ten of these looked better on film.
He along with Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Langford, Ali and Charles are about as rock solid as you can get.

Ok. That's your opinion.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yep. Have to agree to disagree.

[gilgamesh]

Never really put this together before, although had some thoughts through the years. Anyway...

1-Sugar Ray Robinson
2-Muhammad Ali
3-Joe Louis
4-Henry Armstrong
5-Harry Greb
6-Benny Leonard
7-Tony Canzanari
8-Carlos Monzon
9-Ruben Olivares
10-Floyd Mayweather.

Quick list. I'm sure I could be convinced otherwise to some extent.

Not a bad list.

Mine comes out like so, and just for the hell of it I'll add in 10 more

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sam Langford
3. Harry Greb
4. Ezzard Charles
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Willie Pep
7. Roberto Duran
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Archie Moore
10. Sugar Ray Leonard
11. Joe Louis
12. Benny Leonard
13. Gene Tunney
14. Mickey Walker
15. Barney Ross
16. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
17. Joe Gans
18. Charley Burley
19. Marvin Hagler
20. Sandy Saddler

[margaret thatcher]

What are we putting Louis top 10 or thereabouts on

[oogiebe]

Never really put this together before, although had some thoughts through the years. Anyway...

1-Sugar Ray Robinson
2-Muhammad Ali
3-Joe Louis
4-Henry Armstrong
5-Harry Greb
6-Benny Leonard
7-Tony Canzanari
8-Carlos Monzon
9-Ruben Olivares
10-Floyd Mayweather.

Quick list. I'm sure I could be convinced otherwise to some extent.

Not a bad list.

Mine comes out like so, and just for the hell of it I'll add in 10 more

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sam Langford
3. Harry Greb
4. Ezzard Charles
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Willie Pep
7. Roberto Duran
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Archie Moore
10. Sugar Ray Leonard
11. Joe Louis
12. Benny Leonard
13. Gene Tunney
14. Mickey Walker
15. Barney Ross
16. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
17. Joe Gans
18. Charley Burley
19. Marvin Hagler
20. Sandy Saddler

You have fighters I debated myself on. Had Duran retired after beating SRL, I'd have him top 10 all time. But his whole body of work at weights over his peak leave me to not include him. Langford is always a question for me. Just because. Too many what if's and being ducked and all that. I also love Jofre and might have him in my top twenty. It's all good. Just think Louis is too low at 11. He was such a complete machine.

[gilgamesh]

What are we putting Louis top 10 or thereabouts on

You asking me?

[margaret thatcher]

Anyone who rates him around top 10 or higher tbh, I think he was a great fighter but for me it's hard to find room for him in such a select group, his resume just doesn't have the same quality in his division and he had no less flaws than the other upper echelon p4p atgs.

Personally I've always thought anyone ranking him over Ali is being very generous even though they are usually regarded as interchangable 1 and 2 at hw

[gilgamesh]

Anyone who rates him around top 10 or higher tbh, I think he was a great fighter but for me it's hard to find room for him in such a select group, his resume just doesn't have the same quality in his division and he had no less flaws than the other upper echelon p4p atgs.

Personally I've always thought anyone ranking him over Ali is being very generous even though they are usually regarded as interchangable 1 and 2 at hw

Well as you can see I have Ali over him, but I have him at #11, just outside of my Top 10 because he has 26 title defenses, more than any other Champion in the history of the sport in any weight class.

He knocked out 3 former Heavyweight Champions prior to winning the title in Max Baer, Jack Sharkey and Primo Carnera. This being at a time when there was only 1 Champion.

He also of course avenged his defeat to Max Schmeling as Champion, which for a great many years was his only defeat.

Some of the names among those title defenses ain't too shabby either. Billy Conn 2x, Future Champion Jersey Joe Walcott 2x, the 6'5 and 240 plus pound Buddy Baer 2x, plus just other top contenders of the day.

Aside from that there's plenty of footage of him, and you can see how excellent his offensive skills were. Power in every shot, and one of the greatest combination punchers you'll see.

[margaret thatcher]

Eh, just not too impressed with most of those names when trying to decide if someone should be placed at the absolute pinnacle of p4p atgs. He was great offensively for sure, but not like he couldn't be dropped by a lard ass or outboxed for 12 rounds by a lhw, the flaws were there just as visibly as they were for lots of atgs

[oogiebe]

Eh, just not too impressed with most of those names when trying to decide if someone should be placed at the absolute pinnacle of p4p atgs. He was great offensively for sure, but not like he couldn't be dropped by a lard ass or outboxed for 12 rounds by a lhw, the flaws were there just as visibly as they were for lots of atgs

Who on that list wasn't ever dropped?

[margaret thatcher]

I'm sure most greats were (maybe not by tubs of goo), but I don't really see a guy who had such amazing talent and was such a force that it should cover that much for his relative lack of quality . Pretty much anyone in the all time top 100 was a total beast

[gilgamesh]

Eh, just not too impressed with most of those names when trying to decide if someone should be placed at the absolute pinnacle of p4p atgs. He was great offensively for sure, but not like he couldn't be dropped by a lard ass or outboxed for 12 rounds by a lhw, the flaws were there just as visibly as they were for lots of atgs

Who on that list wasn't ever dropped?

It should also be noted that in the case of the "Lard ass" who dropped him. By the end of that fight the Lard Ass had been beaten to a bloody pulp.

[gilgamesh]

I'm sure most greats were (maybe not by tubs of goo), but I don't really see a guy who had such amazing talent and was such a force that it should cover that much for his relative lack of quality . Pretty much anyone in the all time top 100 was a total beast

But nobody else ever managed 26 title defenses did they?

[margaret thatcher]

I'm sure most greats were (maybe not by tubs of goo), but I don't really see a guy who had such amazing talent and was such a force that it should cover that much for his relative lack of quality . Pretty much anyone in the all time top 100 was a total beast

But nobody else ever managed 26 title defenses did they?

Quality means a lot more to me. You know that Thai dude at 53-0 or whatever..