Is it time for super heavyweight division?

[Enlightened-One]

Most of these plus 240 heavy's are at least 15 - 20 LBs overweight.

What you’ve just written doesn’t make any sense, because surely athletically built lean smaller men would’ve achieved far more success over the last twenty years or so, if all they had to face were big fat men?

However, your theory isn’t reflected by reality, is it?

Because as I’ve already illustrated, it’s been extremely rare for any heavyweight weighing less than 225lbs to achieve considerable success over the last decade.

The situation is even far more severe if we only considered those men that were successful in world title bouts over the last twenty years weighing 220lbs or less.

The real-world historical facts are what they are, since no one can pretend that the statistics I’ve provided are untrue or don’t reflect reality.

If size is truly irrelevant for the heavyweight division, then what on earth could possibly explain the real world facts I’ve supplied?

[snake33]

Most of these plus 240 heavy's are at least 15 - 20 LBs overweight.

What you’ve just written doesn’t make any sense, because surely athletically built lean smaller men would’ve achieved far more success over the last twenty years or so, if all they had to face were big fat men?

However, your theory isn’t reflected by reality, is it?

Because as I’ve already illustrated, it’s been extremely rare for any heavyweight weighing less than 225lbs to achieve considerable success over the last decade.

The situation is even far more severe if we only considered those men that were successful in world title bouts over the last twenty years weighing 220lbs or less.

The real-world historical facts are what they are, since no one can pretend that the statistics I’ve provided are untrue or don’t reflect reality.

If size is truly irrelevant for the heavyweight division, then what on earth could possibly explain the real world facts I’ve supplied?

Wilder has been under 220 for most of his fights. And until his last one he was an unbeatable champion.
Holyfield did OK too under 220. Haye held the WBA title for a year or so.

[margaret thatcher]

In his last 20 fights Wilder's only beaten 2 guys at under 220.

I know Alp and others use him as some example of a little man wrecking giants, but the dude is 6'7 and averages like a ripped 225. Look at how ripped he still was at 230+. You really think these flabby dudes that outweigh him like Stiverne are naturally bigger than him?

[margaret thatcher]

This is Wilder at like 232, now how many of these dudes who outweigh him would still be that ripped and muscular at the same weight. Very few are genuine big men being crushed by a naturally smaller man, more like fattened up blobs being bashed by a naturally larger man. Gerald Washigton is the only non soft bodied dude he's fought in any recent time who outweighed him. Ortiz, Brezeale, Stiverne, etc...all not have 1 bit of definition to be seen



This is 6'1 Stiverne at about the same weight as Wilder above....are dudes really gonna use that as an example of a smaller man beating a bigger man? Wilder would have to be 270 to be that soft. I mean I don't think many are advocating just to eat McDonalds and get to 300 so you outweigh your man, and yes I know about EO's Andy Ruiz comment

[Enlightened-One]

What you’ve just written doesn’t make any sense, because surely athletically built lean smaller men would’ve achieved far more success over the last twenty years or so, if all they had to face were big fat men?

However, your theory isn’t reflected by reality, is it?

Because as I’ve already illustrated, it’s been extremely rare for any heavyweight weighing less than 225lbs to achieve considerable success over the last decade.

The situation is even far more severe if we only considered those men that were successful in world title bouts over the last twenty years weighing 220lbs or less.

The real-world historical facts are what they are, since no one can pretend that the statistics I’ve provided are untrue or don’t reflect reality.

If size is truly irrelevant for the heavyweight division, then what on earth could possibly explain the real world facts I’ve supplied?

Wilder has been under 220 for most of his fights. And until his last one he was an unbeatable champion.
Holyfield did OK too under 220. Haye held the WBA title for a year or so.

For the record, Evander Holyfield hasn't won a single world title fight within the last twenty years weighing less than 220lbs.

And without intending to sound mean, you need to keep up with the comments being posted to this thread, since you're repeating the very same statistical exceptions that I had already cited:

Some interesting stats for those that claim that size doesn’t matter…

The following list represents the weights of the winners/champions of the world heavyweight title fights (including the WBA variants) that occurred within the last twenty years (i.e. since the 9th June 2000):

• WBA = 50 title fights; 2 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 3 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBC = 38 title fights; 2 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 4 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• IBF = 40 title fights; 5 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 5 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBO = 30 title fights; 0 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 1 winner weighing less than 220lbs

Here are the mathematical average weights for the winners/champions of all those title fights (rounded to the nearest pound):

• WBA = 247lbs
• WBC = 240lbs
• IBF = 242lbs
• WBO = 242lbs

Here are the champions (weighing less than 220lbs) that emerged victorious (or drew) in the title fights mentioned above:

• David Haye
• Roy Jones Jr
• Deontay Wilder
• Chris Byrd
• Sultan Ibragimov

David Haye and Deontay Wilder are the only fighters that successfully competed in world heavyweight title fights within the last decade weighing less than 225lbs.

[Enlightened-One]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics

Are you honestly arguing that I’m citing statistics to bolster a weak argument?

If so, then why don’t you attempt to provide a strong counter-argument that is supported by some sort of empirical evidence?

[Enlightened-One]

Those "statistics" don't even support the argument.

The statistics prove that size really does matter (i.e. a good big man beats a good little man) and also that smaller heavyweights (those weighing less than 220lbs) have achieved very little success in the heavyweight division within the last twenty years.

I feel the statistics I’ve supplied cannot possibly be interpreted in any other way.

So the average heavyweight champ weighs 240-245. Fine. Let's say that's the optimal weight for combat sports. Well, someone who weighs 245 can weigh in at 225 without much trouble if they want to.

It depends on their on their body mass composition, but I get what you’re saying.

So what have you done? Created a worthless SHW division with almost nobody in it, and cheapened the HW division while you're at it. Truly a win-win.

Personally-speaking, I’m against the idea of creating a new weight division named “super heavyweights”.

I’m much more in favour of creating something that could possibly be named as the “super-cruiserweight” division, with the lower limit of the existing heavyweight division increased from 200lbs to 225lbs.

And considering the fact that most current heavyweights weigh in the region of 245lbs, this should have minimal impact on today’s heaviest weight class (i.e. it won't affect the name of the weight class, most heavyweight competitors, the divisions' legacy or its current prestigious status).

I think the new (201lbs to 225lbs) weight division (as per the cruiserweights) would probably take at least a decade to fifteen years to gain credibility, to become established enough to the point it would become capable of providing competitors with decent paydays.

In the meantime, I reckon most heavyweights would continue to compete in their natural habitat weighing more than 225lbs, because that's where the biggest payday opportunities lie.

In my mind, it seems inevitable for the current iteration of the heavyweight division to eventually be split into two, resulting in the creation of an additional weight class, mainly due to safety reasons and also to level the playing field.

What cannot be refuted is the size gap between 200lbs cruiserweights and top-tier world-rated heavyweights continues to grow as time passes by, because human beings are getting increasing bigger per generation, which means that something has to eventually happen in order to fill that void.

[Paci]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics

Are you honestly arguing that I’m citing statistics to bolster a weak argument?

If so, then why don’t you attempt to provide a strong counter-argument that is supported by some sort of empirical evidence?

Oh! Sure!
Im going with that the statisctis are pretty meh when it comes to that both the Klitschko brothers being huge and dominatin force the div during your chosen timespann.

But it is still true that the heavyweights are getting bigger. Something that has been talked about since well, Liston vs Pattersson or something.

That is my issue with your argument. It can be turned around.

[Heretic]

Well the original point of the thread was that certain fighters have to fight with big weight disatvantage.

How about trying to pay some attention to what we are talking about in the first place

Again: Why would a Holyfield or Wilder fight @ Cruiser, if they can KO HWs? If you can't answer the question, don't.

Don't bother, because the answer to everyone is Wilder and Holy should, or should have fought @ HW.

*sigh

Ok lets go over this once again...

The original poster claimed that we need another weight class because the weight difference in HW is getting out of hand.

Now the weight differences are big because guys that are naturally the cruiser size move into HW.

So if the weight difference is a big problem then the guys should stay at the weight they belong to. Another weight class is not needed.

Making super heavy would not change anything. Then the smaller guys would simply fight at that weight class if that's where the money is. It would change nothing.

I have never said that guys like Wilder and Holyfield should not fight at HW. That's where the money and prestige has always been. If they feel like they can compete above their natural weight class then that's probably what they should do.

I have never heard Wilde or Holyfield complain about the weight differences

[Heretic]

What grinds my gears is that if Usyk was HW champion and fought at about 215-220, EO and Heretic would have no problem with Helenius being Super HW, even though Usyk could beat Helenius in his sleep giving away over 20 pounds.

If I'm wrong about my assumption, either of them can correct it. Some pseudo fans just seem to want more titles.

One last time. I have all the time said that we don't need another weight class.

[Tony1244]

Again: Why would a Holyfield or Wilder fight @ Cruiser, if they can KO HWs? If you can't answer the question, don't.

Don't bother, because the answer to everyone is Wilder and Holy should, or should have fought @ HW.

*sigh

Ok lets go over this once again...

The original poster claimed that we need another weight class because the weight difference in HW is getting out of hand.

Now the weight differences are big because guys that are naturally the cruiser size move into HW.

So if the weight difference is a big problem then the guys should stay at the weight they belong to. Another weight class is not needed.

Making super heavy would not change anything. Then the smaller guys would simply fight at that weight class if that's where the money is. It would change nothing.

I have never said that guys like Wilder and Holyfield should not fight at HW. That's where the money and prestige has always been. If they feel like they can compete above their natural weight class then that's probably what they should do.

I have never heard Wilde or Holyfield complain about the weight differences

Ok, then it looks like we're on the same page. What's with all the devil worship stuff?

It just looked like you were pulling an EO lecture earlier and no it's not worth C & P ing. It's there to see.

[Enlightened-One]

Are you honestly arguing that I’m citing statistics to bolster a weak argument?

If so, then why don’t you attempt to provide a strong counter-argument that is supported by some sort of empirical evidence?

Oh! Sure!
Im going with that the statisctis are pretty meh when it comes to that both the Klitschko brothers being huge and dominatin force the div during your chosen timespann.

But it is still true that the heavyweights are getting bigger. Something that has been talked about since well, Liston vs Pattersson or something.

That is my issue with your argument. It can be turned around.

How can my argument be turned around?

You conceded that heavyweights are getting bigger and it’s a fact that small heavyweights have achieved very little success during world title bouts.

[Ambling Alp II]

What are the win-loss records of heavyweights in title fights that weighed under 220 in the last 20 years?

[Paci]

Oh! Sure!
Im going with that the statisctis are pretty meh when it comes to that both the Klitschko brothers being huge and dominatin force the div during your chosen timespann.

But it is still true that the heavyweights are getting bigger. Something that has been talked about since well, Liston vs Pattersson or something.

That is my issue with your argument. It can be turned around.

How can my argument be turned around?

You conceded that heavyweights are getting bigger and it’s a fact that small heavyweights have achieved very little success during world title bouts.

More look at how many champs have been during the timespann... like WBC 9 champs, WBO going around 12, IBF has had like 8. Not even gonna try to count the number of WBA champs... according to the datebase it really split with the Wlad-Haye fight in 2011.

Like a solid legit champs with a bunch of smaller ones coming and going. With Jones in 2003 and Wilder in 2015 taking a part of their claim to the thorne. But! I give you that it is more normal for large and heavier guys to pick up the pie. And also, guys like AJ, Wlad and Ruiz in the current era are unfied champs and that is another reminder of how much one can BS statistics.

210 or 250 don't count if you can't make your frame work for what fits the natrual gifts then you are screwd in among the big boys all the greatest did it. Fury, AJ and Wilder are doing it. Even Patterson who was one of the smallest champs among the 40 to 60s.

[oogiebe]

Most of these plus 240 heavy's are at least 15 - 20 LBs overweight.

What you’ve just written doesn’t make any sense, because surely athletically built lean smaller men would’ve achieved far more success over the last twenty years or so, if all they had to face were big fat men?

However, your theory isn’t reflected by reality, is it?

Because as I’ve already illustrated, it’s been extremely rare for any heavyweight weighing less than 225lbs to achieve considerable success over the last decade.

The situation is even far more severe if we only considered those men that were successful in world title bouts over the last twenty years weighing 220lbs or less.

The real-world historical facts are what they are, since no one can pretend that the statistics I’ve provided are untrue or don’t reflect reality.

If size is truly irrelevant for the heavyweight division, then what on earth could possibly explain the real world facts I’ve supplied?

Oh I see. So most of these guys are ripped and shredded and in fine shape? LMFAO! Open your eyes and get out of the record books.

[Ambling Alp II]

Just get tired of the brain dead proclamations about weight "advantage."

If 90% of NFL quarterbacks weighed over 250 pounds, wouldn't most of the good NFL quarterbacks weigh over 250 pounds.
Just because a lot of guys weigh a lot, doesn't mean that they should.

Even if a guy weighs a lot and is in good shape, that doesn't that mean he would not be better if he was lighter.

Look at Wilder. In which fight did he perform better, the 1st fight when he was under 220 or the 2nd fight when he was over 230?
Even though he looked like he was in great shape at 231, he performed much worse when he was lighter.

[Enlightened-One]

How can my argument be turned around?

You conceded that heavyweights are getting bigger and it’s a fact that small heavyweights have achieved very little success during world title bouts.

More look at how many champs have been during the timespann... like WBC 9 champs, WBO going around 12, IBF has had like 8. Not even gonna try to count the number of WBA champs... according to the datebase it really split with the Wlad-Haye fight in 2011.

Like a solid legit champs with a bunch of smaller ones coming and going. With Jones in 2003 and Wilder in 2015 taking a part of their claim to the thorne. But! I give you that it is more normal for large and heavier guys to pick up the pie. And also, guys like AJ, Wlad and Ruiz in the current era are unfied champs and that is another reminder of how much one can BS statistics.

210 or 250 don't count if you can't make your frame work for what fits the natrual gifts then you are screwd in among the big boys all the greatest did it. Fury, AJ and Wilder are doing it. Even Patterson who was one of the smallest champs among the 40 to 60s.

I think you need to review the stats again, because there were also very few successful title challengers that weighed less than 220lbs within the last twenty years... I mean, fighters that weighed less than 220lbs that were even given title shots.

I have no idea how you've managed to draw such conclusions without even bothering to verify the accuracy of your own claims.

[Enlightened-One]

What you’ve just written doesn’t make any sense, because surely athletically built lean smaller men would’ve achieved far more success over the last twenty years or so, if all they had to face were big fat men?

However, your theory isn’t reflected by reality, is it?

Because as I’ve already illustrated, it’s been extremely rare for any heavyweight weighing less than 225lbs to achieve considerable success over the last decade.

The situation is even far more severe if we only considered those men that were successful in world title bouts over the last twenty years weighing 220lbs or less.

The real-world historical facts are what they are, since no one can pretend that the statistics I’ve provided are untrue or don’t reflect reality.

If size is truly irrelevant for the heavyweight division, then what on earth could possibly explain the real world facts I’ve supplied?

Oh I see. So most of these guys are ripped and shredded and in fine shape? LMFAO! Open your eyes and get out of the record books.

Your comment doesn't relate to anything I've written.

It seems you're currently suffering from a severe form of Keyboard Tourette’s Syndrome, whereby you feel impulsively compelled to bark random responses to other people’s posts.

[oogiebe]

Oh I see. So most of these guys are ripped and shredded and in fine shape? LMFAO! Open your eyes and get out of the record books.

Your comment doesn't relate to anything I've written.

It seems you're currently suffering from a severe form of Keyboard Tourette’s Syndrome, whereby you feel impulsively compelled to bark random responses to other people’s posts.

Yeah, that's it. I post that most +240 HW's are 15-20 lbs overweight Somehow that stings your butt so you try to impress upon us that it's irrelevant. While people are naturally getting taller, they are also getting fatter. LOOK at what HW's where built like in the 70's. Far cry from the fatties of today. None of that is irrelevant. If it doesn't fit EO's narrative it CAN'T be true! LMFAO!!!!

[Tony1244]

Oh I see. So most of these guys are ripped and shredded and in fine shape? LMFAO! Open your eyes and get out of the record books.

Your comment doesn't relate to anything I've written.

It seems you're currently suffering from a severe form of Keyboard Tourette’s Syndrome, whereby you feel impulsively compelled to bark random responses to other people’s posts.

Oogiebe is suffering from Tourette's Syndrome?

EO is the Olympic Gold of TS. Come on, EO one more time with 1) ALL the exceptions 2) the fascinating super Middleweight dehydration stories and 3) my personal favorite of picking A. Ruiz over Liston due to 50 LBS of Blubber.

[Enlightened-One]

What are the win-loss records of heavyweights in title fights that weighed under 220 in the last 20 years?

What are you hoping to achieve by this question?

And why haven’t you bothered to research the answer for yourself?

If very few small fighters (i.e. those weighing less than 220lbs) were even given title shots within the last twenty years, then the resulting win/loss ratio is utterly meaningless.

For instance, if you review the WBC’s world heavyweight title fights within the last twenty years, Deontay Wilder is the only man to have ever fought for that championship weighing less than 220lbs.

And he’s only ever done so on four separate occasions, winning three times.

But there have been 38 WBC world heavyweight title fights and nine titleholders within the last twenty years!

There hasn’t been a single fighter that fought for the WBO version of the world heavyweight title within the last decade weighing less than 220lbs.

Vyacheslav Glazkov and Jean Marc Mormeck were the only IBF title challengers within the last decade that weighed less than 220lbs. They were both KO’d rather quickly.

David Haye competed in two WBA world heavyweight title bouts within the last decade weighing less than 220lbs (winning one and losing the other). Jean Marc Mormeck challenged for the same title, but was KO’d rather quickly (as per the IBF title bout).

[oogiebe]

Once and for all, it is NOT nor ever will be a time for a Super-Heavyweight Division. Thank you, End of.

[gilgamesh]

What are the win-loss records of heavyweights in title fights that weighed under 220 in the last 20 years?

What are you hoping to achieve by this question?

And why haven’t you bothered to research the answer for yourself?

If very few small fighters (i.e. those weighing less than 220lbs) were even given title shots within the last twenty years, then the resulting win/loss ratio is utterly meaningless.

For instance, if you review the WBC’s world heavyweight title fights within the last twenty years, Deontay Wilder is the only man to have ever fought for that championship weighing less than 220lbs.

And he’s only ever done so on four separate occasions, winning three times.

But there have been 38 WBC world heavyweight title fights and nine titleholders within the last twenty years!

There hasn’t been a single fighter that fought for the WBO version of the world heavyweight title within the last decade weighing less than 220lbs.

Vyacheslav Glazkov and Jean Marc Mormeck were the only IBF title challengers within the last decade that weighed less than 220lbs. They were both KO’d rather quickly.

David Haye competed in two WBA world heavyweight title bouts within the last decade weighing less than 220lbs (winning one and losing the other). Jean Marc Mormeck challenged for the same title, but was KO’d rather quickly (as per the IBF title bout).

So what?

So let the big guys win if they can or let the smaller Heavyweights win if they can.

Don't sh*t on the sport by trying to add in another weight class.

There's already 7 too many at least as it is.

Too many World Championships too.

Back when there was only ONE Heavyweight Champion, and there wasn't a proliferation of titles all over the place very few Champions ever exceeded 240 pounds, and the ones that did had mediocre reigns that lasted almost no time.

You seem to feel like the 215 pound Heavyweights are at an unfair advantage, and they need help, but have they asked for it? Are any Heavyweight Boxers out there currently claiming they'd like to see another weight class come along or is just goofs like you with no respect for the sport.

[Paci]

More look at how many champs have been during the timespann... like WBC 9 champs, WBO going around 12, IBF has had like 8. Not even gonna try to count the number of WBA champs... according to the datebase it really split with the Wlad-Haye fight in 2011.

Like a solid legit champs with a bunch of smaller ones coming and going. With Jones in 2003 and Wilder in 2015 taking a part of their claim to the thorne. But! I give you that it is more normal for large and heavier guys to pick up the pie. And also, guys like AJ, Wlad and Ruiz in the current era are unfied champs and that is another reminder of how much one can BS statistics.

210 or 250 don't count if you can't make your frame work for what fits the natrual gifts then you are screwd in among the big boys all the greatest did it. Fury, AJ and Wilder are doing it. Even Patterson who was one of the smallest champs among the 40 to 60s.

I think you need to review the stats again, because there were also very few successful title challengers that weighed less than 220lbs within the last twenty years... I mean, fighters that weighed less than 220lbs that were even given title shots.

I have no idea how you've managed to draw such conclusions without even bothering to verify the accuracy of your own claims.

So going by the numbers smaller guy are less but win more? And yeah the heavyweights are getting bigger, still looking at the rate if succes that the smaller guys bring by going by their rate rather then how big the challangers are nowdays.

And no. Not going with adding another weight wouldn't make anyone happy just more confused. Since nobody knows about 8 classes tops out of 17.

[jujigatame]

Those "statistics" don't even support the argument.

The statistics prove that size really does matter (i.e. a good big man beats a good little man) and also that smaller heavyweights (those weighing less than 220lbs) have achieved very little success in the heavyweight division within the last twenty years.

I feel the statistics I’ve supplied cannot possibly be interpreted in any other way.

So the average heavyweight champ weighs 240-245. Fine. Let's say that's the optimal weight for combat sports. Well, someone who weighs 245 can weigh in at 225 without much trouble if they want to.

It depends on their on their body mass composition, but I get what you’re saying.

So what have you done? Created a worthless SHW division with almost nobody in it, and cheapened the HW division while you're at it. Truly a win-win.

Personally-speaking, I’m against the idea of creating a new weight division named “super heavyweights”.

I’m much more in favour of creating something that could possibly be named as the “super-cruiserweight” division, with the lower limit of the existing heavyweight division increased from 200lbs to 225lbs.

And considering the fact that most current heavyweights weigh in the region of 245lbs, this should have minimal impact on today’s heaviest weight class (i.e. it won't affect the name of the weight class, most heavyweight competitors, the divisions' legacy or its current prestigious status).

I think the new (201lbs to 225lbs) weight division (as per the cruiserweights) would probably take at least a decade to fifteen years to gain credibility, to become established enough to the point it would become capable of providing competitors with decent paydays.

In the meantime, I reckon most heavyweights would continue to compete in their natural habitat weighing more than 225lbs, because that's where the biggest payday opportunities lie.

In my mind, it seems inevitable for the current iteration of the heavyweight division to eventually be split into two, resulting in the creation of an additional weight class, mainly due to safety reasons and also to level the playing field.

What cannot be refuted is the size gap between 200lbs cruiserweights and top-tier world-rated heavyweights continues to grow as time passes by, because human beings are getting increasing bigger per generation, which means that something has to eventually happen in order to fill that void.

You're missing multiple points here.

First of all, the reason guys under 220 have little success at HW is because most of them fight at CW. Anyone under 220 has the option of fighting at CW if they want to.

Second of all, your suggestion to create a SCW division instead of a SHW division is really just semantics, isn't it? So you keep the no-limit HW division to preserve the history, but you create a new SCW division. Who fights in this division? The tiny subset of fighters who weigh around 225-235 who can't make CW but don't want to be at a size disadvantage? So what are you left with? A division made pretty much just for Wilder and Povetkin? Would they even want to compete in that new division? What would a guy like Usyk who wants to move from CW to HW do? He's not even big enough to break the 225 limit so would he even be allowed to fight at HW?

The UFC has shown that the difference between an elite CW (or LHW as they're called in UFC) and elite HW is very minimal. Daniel Cormier was a 235 pound HW. He moved down to 205 and won a title. Then moved back up to HW and won a title. Ryan Bader did the same in Bellator. Jon Jones could have undoubtedly done the same. There is just no need for an additional weight class.