Who's the UK's Best Ever Super Middle

[Autobarn]

In line with that other post from yesterday, I ask who was Britain's best super middle? Really, we've had two golden eras, firstly the Watson-Eubank-Benn-Collins-Wharton. Then we had Calzaghe-Dean Francis-Robin Reid-Glen Catley-Richie Woodhall-David Starie-Clinton Woods-Mark Baker

IMO Calzaghe's the best. Francis could've possibly been near the very top. Eubank was too erratic

[yiddo14]

In line with that other post from yesterday, I ask who was Britain's best super middle? Really, we've had two golden eras, firstly the Watson-Eubank-Benn-Collins-Wharton. Then we had Calzaghe-Dean Francis-Robin Reid-Glen Catley-Richie Woodhall-David Starie-Clinton Woods-Mark Baker

IMO Calzaghe's the best. Francis could've possibly been near the very top. Eubank was too erratic

If all of these guys were on top form and firing on all cylinders then it's..
1.Eubank
2.Calzaghe
3.Watson
4.Benn

Collins would come in 4th and push Benn down to 5th.But he is'nt from the UK so I did'nt include him.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Don't see Eubank beating Calzaghe at all, Calzaghe's workrate is far too high, and with enough skill to hit Eubank and not take much in return. Eubank could struggle against people who could box him off, and had some awful title defences. Benn suited him because he had little in the way of skills, and was there to be hit.

Eubank's style was too lazy to beat Calzaghe.

[Chambers2]

I'd pick Calzaghe as well, closely followed by Eubank, Watson, Benn

[Autobarn]

Eubank hated boxers who brought a big workrate. Thornton had him gasping on the retreat.

I think in terms of well rounded, classical skills, Francis was probably the best pure boxer.

Calzaghe's achievements outdo Eubank's, I feel. Eubank had too many controversial fights. He did stop Watson (in the tragic fight) and Benn - in two of the most thrilling fights ever. Calzaghe also beat the best of British (Starie, Eubank, Woodhall, Reid) and the best of America (Mitchell, Brewer, Lacy). I suppose Eubank beat one of the better European fighters, in the very good Rocchigiani. Whereas Calzaghe never bothered to fight the best of Europe (Ottke, Larsen, etc)

[jamesmcdonnell]

In line with that other post from yesterday, I ask who was Britain's best super middle? Really, we've had two golden eras, firstly the Watson-Eubank-Benn-Collins-Wharton. Then we had Calzaghe-Dean Francis-Robin Reid-Glen Catley-Richie Woodhall-David Starie-Clinton Woods-Mark Baker

IMO Calzaghe's the best. Francis could've possibly been near the very top. Eubank was too erratic

If all of these guys were on top form and firing on all cylinders then it's..
1.Eubank
2.Calzaghe
3.Watson
4.Ben

Collins doesn't get enough respect in my opinion, he was a fantastic fighter, after all, beat (albeit jaded versions) Benn and Eubank twice each, drew with a prime McCallum, and was never even remotely hurt by anyone. He totally outpsyched Benn and Eubank.

Watson had the most ability and was the best technical fighter of the lot, Collins was the physically strongest, Benn and Eubank were the most explosive, but Eubank was so erratic.

Collins would come in 4th and push Benn down to 5th.But he is'nt from the UK so I did'nt include him.

[Autobarn]

Collins was soundly beaten by McCallum. He was also outboxed by Kalambay and imo the Collins supporters who cried robbery that night need a good kicking, as Collins was subtly outboxed and at times battered to the body.

Dunno if Watson was the best technical fighter. Certainly was the best counter puncher/back foot fighter. Francis was the best at boxing consistently from a distance: he was very loose and versatile and had KO power.

[nickd]

Calzaghe's achievements at the weight are obviously the best, whether he'd have beaten the other fighters in their prime is quite another thing.

How has anyone rated Watson? He only had the 1 tragic fight at Supermiddleweight.

[jamesmcdonnell]

True, strictly speaking he had no career at SM, but he did beat guys who would go on to spend most of their career at SM and win. He easily beat Eubank in their 1st fight at MW, and absolutely ripped Benn a new A-hole. He was badly outclassed against McCallum, but McCallum was a class act and would have easily beaten Eubank and Benn.

[Autobarn]

True, strictly speaking he had no career at SM, but he did beat guys who would go on to spend most of their career at SM and win. He easily beat Eubank in their 1st fight at MW, and absolutely ripped Benn a new A-hole. He was badly outclassed against McCallum, but McCallum was a class act and would have easily beaten Eubank and Benn.

Watson was a bit weight drained against McCallum, but he would've lost anyway. Funny, if Benn had managed to beat Watson, Benn would've got the shot at McCallum and Nigel would've been eaten alive.

Watson-Benn is one of my fave fights ever, Michael was masterful that night.

[stujones]

Eubank, the Calzaghe fight was close enough for me to think a properly prepared Eubank would have won.

Yes, it could be argued that on the back of the Collins and Calzaghe fights that Eubank would have always struggled with but was Eubank already off the boil by then? Certainly mentally he was never the same fighter after Watson and he was very tight at the weight by then also.

He didn't seem to mind fighting at a pace vs Benn and Watson.

[jamesmcdonnell]

True, strictly speaking he had no career at SM, but he did beat guys who would go on to spend most of their career at SM and win. He easily beat Eubank in their 1st fight at MW, and absolutely ripped Benn a new A-hole. He was badly outclassed against McCallum, but McCallum was a class act and would have easily beaten Eubank and Benn.

Watson was a bit weight drained against McCallum, but he would've lost anyway. Funny, if Benn had managed to beat Watson, Benn would've got the shot at McCallum and Nigel would've been eaten alive.

Watson-Benn is one of my fave fights ever, Michael was masterful that night.

Read in Watson's book that he picked up an injury in training which prevented him doing any roadwork, some sort of muscle injury to his leg, or something like that, which basically forced him to come forward and go for the stoppage as he didn't have the stamina to execute the gameplan he wanted. I still don't think he could have beaten McCallum though, wrong tactically for him, as Watson was a natural counterpuncher, but in against a better counterpuncher with more power and the ability to switch tactics seamlessly.

Benn would have taken one almighty ass whupping from McCallum. The other thing about McCallum was he could really take a shot too, against Don Curry he absorbed some terrific shots before icing him with the best left hook I ever saw.

[Autobarn]

True, strictly speaking he had no career at SM, but he did beat guys who would go on to spend most of their career at SM and win. He easily beat Eubank in their 1st fight at MW, and absolutely ripped Benn a new A-hole. He was badly outclassed against McCallum, but McCallum was a class act and would have easily beaten Eubank and Benn.

Watson was a bit weight drained against McCallum, but he would've lost anyway. Funny, if Benn had managed to beat Watson, Benn would've got the shot at McCallum and Nigel would've been eaten alive.

Watson-Benn is one of my fave fights ever, Michael was masterful that night.

Read in Watson's book that he picked up an injury in training which prevented him doing any roadwork, some sort of muscle injury to his leg, or something like that, which basically forced him to come forward and go for the stoppage as he didn't have the stamina to execute the gameplan he wanted. I still don't think he could have beaten McCallum though, wrong tactically for him, as Watson was a natural counterpuncher, but in against a better counterpuncher with more power and the ability to switch tactics seamlessly.

Benn would have taken one almighty ass whupping from McCallum. The other thing about McCallum was he could really take a shot too, against Don Curry he absorbed some terrific shots before icing him with the best left hook I ever saw.

McCallum's definitely one of the best ever. So many top guys that he fought - Curry, McCrory, Dave Braxton, Kalule, Watson, Graham, Kalambay, Collins, Harding and Toney.

Benn and Eubank should feel lucky that they never fought McCallum, Kalambay and Graham. The trio of former junior middles were absolute master boxers. They all had the same level of boxing ability and most of their fights are dead even. Graham and Kalambay, I feel, were a bit unlucky (Nunn being all wrong for kalambay and Graham coming so close to winning world titles...)

[stujones]

Always thought Graham beat McCallum... thought he won it clear.

[lvlarc]

Eubank, the Calzaghe fight was close enough for me to think a properly prepared Eubank would have won.

Yes, it could be argued that on the back of the Collins and Calzaghe fights that Eubank would have always struggled with but was Eubank already off the boil by then? Certainly mentally he was never the same fighter after Watson and he was very tight at the weight by then also.

He didn't seem to mind fighting at a pace vs Benn and Watson.

That fight was hardly close, Calzaghe was a very comfortable decisive winner, but you also didn't mention, that was before Joe reached his prime too.

Calzaghe
Eubank
Benn
Reid (did beat Ottke)

...since Collins is Irish, and Francis was abit inconsistent and Watson only had 1 fight at 168.

[stujones]

Eubank, the Calzaghe fight was close enough for me to think a properly prepared Eubank would have won.

Yes, it could be argued that on the back of the Collins and Calzaghe fights that Eubank would have always struggled with but was Eubank already off the boil by then? Certainly mentally he was never the same fighter after Watson and he was very tight at the weight by then also.

He didn't seem to mind fighting at a pace vs Benn and Watson.

That fight was hardly close, Calzaghe was a very comfortable decisive winner, but you also didn't mention, that was before Joe reached his prime too.

Calzaghe
Eubank
Benn
Reid (did beat Ottke)

...since Collins is Irish, and Francis was abit inconsistent and Watson only had 1 fight at 168.

The Eubank vs Calzaghe fight was close enough - the scoring didn't reflect the effort the Eubank put in.... his accuracy was dire that night though. Eubank was very close to flooring Joe in the final seconds.

Eubank hadn't had a competitive fight in two years - he had two glorified exhibitions in Egypt. He was also preparing to fight a lesser opponent (Mark Prince) at Light Heavyweight and was only given a weeks notice to get down to weight and prepare for a Southpaw. It was hardly ideal preparation. Yet every round was competitive in a great contest. Sure Joe was a handy winner, but I was left with no doubt who would win with both having ideal prepation.

Yes, I suppose age wise it wasn't a prime Joe... although, if we did a poll on Joe's top 3 best performances I have no doubt it will be there. Likewise, if you made a poll of Eubank's 3 worst performances (and there were some stinkers) I have no doubt Calzaghe will be up there.

[Autobarn]

Eubank, the Calzaghe fight was close enough for me to think a properly prepared Eubank would have won.

Yes, it could be argued that on the back of the Collins and Calzaghe fights that Eubank would have always struggled with but was Eubank already off the boil by then? Certainly mentally he was never the same fighter after Watson and he was very tight at the weight by then also.

He didn't seem to mind fighting at a pace vs Benn and Watson.

That fight was hardly close, Calzaghe was a very comfortable decisive winner, but you also didn't mention, that was before Joe reached his prime too.

Calzaghe
Eubank
Benn
Reid (did beat Ottke)

...since Collins is Irish, and Francis was abit inconsistent and Watson only had 1 fight at 168.

I agree it wasn't so close, even if it was memorable.

Calzaghe was far too much for Eubank. If he'd had 8 weeks to prepare he wouldn't have been able to cope fully with the pace. Eubank did great little bits of work here and there, but he was never one to sustain his good work even in his prime & IMo that was a pretty raw Joe Calzaghe. Prime for prime Calzaghe beats him, almost certainly on speed, accuracy and workrate.


Stu, Eubank hated the pace against Watson in the 2nd fight. He crumbled and got 'lucky' wit the uppercut. Tony Thornton had him literally running around trying to avoid contact also

I had McCallum beating Graham. Just. Thought he landed the bit better shots in an otherwise even fight.

[nickd]

In Calzaghe's defence it was his first 12 rounder and he did look spent in that last round. I think his longest fight before that was 8 rounds or something.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Eubank, the Calzaghe fight was close enough for me to think a properly prepared Eubank would have won.

Yes, it could be argued that on the back of the Collins and Calzaghe fights that Eubank would have always struggled with but was Eubank already off the boil by then? Certainly mentally he was never the same fighter after Watson and he was very tight at the weight by then also.

He didn't seem to mind fighting at a pace vs Benn and Watson.

That fight was hardly close, Calzaghe was a very comfortable decisive winner, but you also didn't mention, that was before Joe reached his prime too.

Calzaghe
Eubank
Benn
Reid (did beat Ottke)

...since Collins is Irish, and Francis was abit inconsistent and Watson only had 1 fight at 168.

The Eubank vs Calzaghe fight was close enough - the scoring didn't reflect the effort the Eubank put in.... his accuracy was dire that night though. Eubank was very close to flooring Joe in the final seconds.

Eubank hadn't had a competitive fight in two years - he had two glorified exhibitions in Egypt. He was also preparing to fight a lesser opponent (Mark Prince) at Light Heavyweight and was only given a weeks notice to get down to weight and prepare for a Southpaw. It was hardly ideal preparation. Yet every round was competitive in a great contest. Sure Joe was a handy winner, but I was left with no doubt who would win with both having ideal prepation.

Yes, I suppose age wise it wasn't a prime Joe... although, if we did a poll on Joe's top 3 best performances I have no doubt it will be there. Likewise, if you made a poll of Eubank's 3 worst performances (and there were some stinkers) I have no doubt Calzaghe will be up there.

Calzaghe was taking a big step up in class that night, despite the poor preparations, Eubank was still the vastly more experienced man, and a very dangerous puncher to boot. Calzaghe jumped all over him and never let Eubank settle into his pattern of posturing and prancing around.

As mentioned, Watson gave him hell by staying on him the whole time, and Calzaghe would have been capable of doing the same. Joe is a little past his best now and yet he was on Lacy like white on rice the whole time. Had he not been, Lacy would have been marching forward landing big shots the whole time, people forget how dangerous Lacy looked against Robin Reid, he was like a human wrecking machine that night, because Reid tried to pose and pick and poke.

I used to be of the opinion that Benn and Eubank were Calzaghe's superiors, you could argue that both men had better careers, at least in terms of highlights, but after the Lacy fight, I believe Calzaghe is different gravy and in terms of skills at least, is in a different league to those two.

[stujones]

I think a different league is very harsh... especially on Eubank. The two fought a competitive 12 rounder, the Sky crew wanted a rematch. Now Lacy vs Calzaghe was a fight between fighters who were leagues apart in terms of skill - that wasn't a competitive 12 rounder.


Calzaghe is undefeated and is no doubt a fantastic fighter, I'd have him above Nigel as a Super Middleweight no doubt. However, IMO Eubank was undefeated in his prime also. He lost his instincts after the Watson rematch.

Watch the Benn fight and then question Eubank's stamina.

[Podmore_Birmingham]

It would be true to say at the end of Eubank’s career he had a stamina issue, but that’s to be expected.

I remember Carl Thompson saying that he knew Eubank couldn’t fight a full three-minutes, hence Eubank would do all his work in the last 30 seconds or so.

Eubank was an intelligent fighter, that there is no doubt.

I’d have:

1. Calzaghe
2. Eubank
3. Benn
4. Collins
5. Woodhall.

You may ask Woodhall? But surely he deserves to be mentioned ahead of Dean Francis and Michael Watson – who, due to no fault of his own, had only one fight at S/M. Richie won the WBC title against ‘Sugar Boy’ Malinga, who had recently removed Robin Reid. Then a close defence against ‘The Cat’ followed by a sound win over former champion Vincenzo Nardiello. Remember that without the knockdowns against Beyer he would have retained his title. Beyer is still the champion today – Ok, he has lost the title a couple of times since then, but he’s still around the top.

He also performed with valor against Calzaghe.

Tom Podmore.

[nickd]

A rich Eubank was a completely different animal to the man who fought Benn. Its safe to say his hunger certainly wasn't there once he had made his money, and obviously the Watson tragedy took a lot out of him too.

[stujones]

It would be true to say at the end of Eubank’s career he had a stamina issue, but that’s to be expected.

I remember Carl Thompson saying that he knew Eubank couldn’t fight a full three-minutes, hence Eubank would do all his work in the last 30 seconds or so.

Eubank was an intelligent fighter, that there is no doubt.

I’d have:

1. Calzaghe
2. Eubank
3. Benn
4. Collins
5. Woodhall.

You may ask Woodhall? But surely he deserves to be mentioned ahead of Dean Francis and Michael Watson – who, due to no fault of his own, had only one fight at S/M. Richie won the WBC title against ‘Sugar Boy’ Malinga, who had recently removed Robin Reid. Then a close defence against ‘The Cat’ followed by a sound win over former champion Vincenzo Nardiello. Remember that without the knockdowns against Beyer he would have retained his title. Beyer is still the champion today – Ok, he has lost the title a couple of times since then, but he’s still around the top.

He also performed with valor against Calzaghe.

Tom Podmore.

Why not have Catley ahead of Woodhall then? Even Woodhall conceed (so honourable of him to do so) that he lost to Catley and Catley beat current champion Beyer.

I don't have any qualms in you having Woodhall ahead of Watson, Reid or Francis.

I'd think Collins at 4 is a harsh. Okay he fought Benn and Eubank at the tail end of their career's. But the guy was a MONSTER at the weight. I honestly think Calzaghe vs Collins would have been a thriller we would have talked about for years - but I think Collins' strength would have got to Joe. Yes, Joe is faster and more skilled - but I just think Collins would eventually break him up in the end. It was more likely for Calzaghe to break his hand than for him to floor Collins.

Even as good a 12 round fighter as Joe is, I just think something would have to give and I just think the sheer size and strength of Collins would have got to him.

I'd have Collins at #1 personally, but I think he has to be above Benn and at #3 as his lowest position. One boxing image I'll never forget was in round 4 of their rematch where Benn brought a left hook back from his ankles and landed flush on the chin, and Collins just walked through it. It not only made me think "Benn would never beat Collins ever" but I'm sure its the punch that made his corner think that also. I lost a fair amount of money on the outcome of the result.

[Podmore_Birmingham]

That’s an excellent point Stu, but the reason I’d have Woodhall ahead of Catley is that he performed with more consistency than 'The Cat' who lost in his first defence against Thobela.

Catley performed well against Beyer and against Eric Lucas the first time around, but Richie made a couple of defenses of the title against decent fighters. But Catley would be excellent one minute and getting knocked out by a former lightweight the next fight - Thobela.

I was a big fan of both men (more so Richie, born in Birmingham and all that!), but Richie gets the nod from me.

I wouldn’t quibble with Catley being ahead of Woodhall on anyone else’s list. It’s subjective, of course.

Tom Podmore.

[jamesmcdonnell]

It would be true to say at the end of Eubank’s career he had a stamina issue, but that’s to be expected.

I remember Carl Thompson saying that he knew Eubank couldn’t fight a full three-minutes, hence Eubank would do all his work in the last 30 seconds or so.

Eubank was an intelligent fighter, that there is no doubt.

I’d have:

1. Calzaghe
2. Eubank
3. Benn
4. Collins
5. Woodhall.

You may ask Woodhall? But surely he deserves to be mentioned ahead of Dean Francis and Michael Watson – who, due to no fault of his own, had only one fight at S/M. Richie won the WBC title against ‘Sugar Boy’ Malinga, who had recently removed Robin Reid. Then a close defence against ‘The Cat’ followed by a sound win over former champion Vincenzo Nardiello. Remember that without the knockdowns against Beyer he would have retained his title. Beyer is still the champion today – Ok, he has lost the title a couple of times since then, but he’s still around the top.

He also performed with valor against Calzaghe.

Tom Podmore.

Why not have Catley ahead of Woodhall then? Even Woodhall conceed (so honourable of him to do so) that he lost to Catley and Catley beat current champion Beyer.

I don't have any qualms in you having Woodhall ahead of Watson, Reid or Francis.

I'd think Collins at 4 is a harsh. Okay he fought Benn and Eubank at the tail end of their career's. But the guy was a MONSTER at the weight. I honestly think Calzaghe vs Collins would have been a thriller we would have talked about for years - but I think Collins' strength would have got to Joe. Yes, Joe is faster and more skilled - but I just think Collins would eventually break him up in the end. It was more likely for Calzaghe to break his hand than for him to floor Collins.

Even as good a 12 round fighter as Joe is, I just think something would have to give and I just think the sheer size and strength of Collins would have got to him.

I'd have Collins at #1 personally, but I think he has to be above Benn and at #3 as his lowest position. One boxing image I'll never forget was in round 4 of their rematch where Benn brought a left hook back from his ankles and landed flush on the chin, and Collins just walked through it. It not only made me think "Benn would never beat Collins ever" but I'm sure its the punch that made his corner think that also. I lost a fair amount of money on the outcome of the result.

Yes Collins was a beast of a man, I'll never forget how he seemed to dwarf both Benn and Eubank in the ring, how he made SM I'll never know.

I think it is worth noting however than Benn's balance was pretty much gone by their second fight and so those shots were not as potent. He looked a shadow of his former self in that fight, wobbling and lurching with every shot. I think Collins would have beaten Benn had they fought prime for prime though.

Calzaghe v Collins would indeed have been a cracking fight, shame it never happened, although at the point it was suppose to, I think Collins was past it, was it Collins who was sparked by eastman in sparring and then decided to retire?