Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?

[lazboy]

If anyone’s EO it’s the reverend.

I'm only bantering with Margie.

But...I did have a legitimate thought or two about the rev. that whole 'criticism' thing was a bit weird. Glad I'm not alone.

You’re never alone, we are the same poster after all.

[margaret thatcher]

This is where the shock comes, and EO is actually Ambling Alp

[oogiebe]

I'm only bantering with Margie.

But...I did have a legitimate thought or two about the rev. that whole 'criticism' thing was a bit weird. Glad I'm not alone.

You’re never alone, we are the same poster after all.

Were we accused of that??? LMFAO!

[oogiebe]

This is where the shock comes, and EO is actually Ambling Alp

Staaaaaaahhhhp it.

[lazboy]

You’re never alone, we are the same poster after all.

Were we accused of that??? LMFAO!

No we have never been accused, but I’ve always been suspicious.

[oogiebe]

Were we accused of that??? LMFAO!

No we have never been accused, but I’ve always been suspicious.

LMFAO! That's funny.

[985802]

Son would be beat by Andy Anthony and fury way to slow and easy to read

[pound per pound]

Had a great jab and was mean as hell. But, at 6’1 - wouldn’t really be comparable to today’s giants.

I hate comparing eras - too many unknowns and a bit of a waste of time as nobody can really say how the fights would play out.

Yes he would, Listson had an 84" reach, more than most today. He hit harder than Wilder and unlkie Wilder had Skills and Stamina to go a fast pace for 12 rounds. Chin was better than any of the " champs " today. IMO Liston would be 230LBS today.

[tiny_acres]

Had a great jab and was mean as hell. But, at 6’1 - wouldn’t really be comparable to today’s giants.

I hate comparing eras - too many unknowns and a bit of a waste of time as nobody can really say how the fights would play out.

Yes he would, Listson had an 84" reach, more than most today. He hit harder than Wilder and unlkie Wilder had Skills and Stamina to go a fast pace for 12 rounds. Chin was better than any of the " champs " today. IMO Liston would be 230LBS today.

No doubt Liston was good but far from the beast people try to paint him out to be today
One fighter whose legend has outgrown his reality

[Bandog]

Had a great jab and was mean as hell. But, at 6’1 - wouldn’t really be comparable to today’s giants.

I hate comparing eras - too many unknowns and a bit of a waste of time as nobody can really say how the fights would play out.

Yes he would, Listson had an 84" reach, more than most today. He hit harder than Wilder and unlkie Wilder had Skills and Stamina to go a fast pace for 12 rounds. Chin was better than any of the " champs " today. IMO Liston would be 230LBS today.

No doubt Liston was good but far from the beast people try to paint him out to be today
One fighter whose legend has outgrown his reality

He reminds me of Foreman as far as skill and power. Too bad we didn't see him vs Marciano.

The older athletes get, the better they used to be.

[p4p1]

Yes he would, Listson had an 84" reach, more than most today. He hit harder than Wilder and unlkie Wilder had Skills and Stamina to go a fast pace for 12 rounds. Chin was better than any of the " champs " today. IMO Liston would be 230LBS today.

No doubt Liston was good but far from the beast people try to paint him out to be today
One fighter whose legend has outgrown his reality

He reminds me of Foreman as far as skill and power. Too bad we didn't see him vs Marciano.

The older athletes get, the better they used to be.

Do you hate Rocky?

[H8Usernames]

Sonny Liston had the unfortunate honor of having to face and absolutely prime Muhammad Ali. That's worse or equal to facing a 100% prime Mike Tyson. Liston was great but he was never a prime Tyson or Ali. People say size this and size that, Foreman had some size and yet Ali put him down. This same Foreman would later come back to beat another large heavyweight Shannon Briggs then aged something like 40 years and this Shannon would go on to wobble possibly the most accomplished heavyweight champion of all times Lennox Lewis.

Sonny Liston would have easily beaten jokers such as Francois Botha, Michael Moorer, Lucas Browne, I would also pick him to beat Roy Jones jr at heavyweight and James Toney.

What about the current heavyweights. It's sort of difficult to say in some cases but with Adam Kownacki at #17 he definitely could get himself a few wins. Hell I would pick every single poster on this board to beat Kownacki and I really don't even have any idea how any of you look.

[Bandog]

No doubt Liston was good but far from the beast people try to paint him out to be today
One fighter whose legend has outgrown his reality

He reminds me of Foreman as far as skill and power. Too bad we didn't see him vs Marciano.

The older athletes get, the better they used to be.

Do you hate Rocky?

No, but am always wondering why he retired at such a young age. 32? I think Rocky was a great champ in a relatively weak era. His best competition was past their best.

[Cap]

Marciano retired for a number of reasons, chief among them was a bad back that was getting worse.

[Cap]

As for the original post. Most of today's sorry crop of blubberweights are only there because real athletes prefer playing football, baseball, hockey, etc. where there is less chance of permanent damage. If the 1963 Sonny Liston suddenly appeared today, he'd most likely wipe the floor with the Klumzy Karps who pass for boxers in the dreadnought class right now. Fury might last the distance if he wrapped his arms around Liston and refused to fight. Otherwise, he gets knocked out cold inside five rounds. Hell! George Chuvalo of 1965 would whip most of the so-called top ten floundering around, if he could actually get them into the ring. These slobs now fight once or twice a year at best.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

As for the original post. Most of today's sorry crop of blubberweights are only there because real athletes prefer playing football, baseball, hockey, etc. where there is less chance of permanent damage. If the 1963 Sonny Liston suddenly appeared today, he'd most likely wipe the floor with the Klumzy Karps who pass for boxers in the dreadnought class right now. Fury might last the distance if he wrapped his arms around Liston and refused to fight. Otherwise, he gets knocked out cold inside five rounds. Hell! George Chuvalo of 1965 would whip most of the so-called top ten floundering around, if he could actually get them into the ring. These slobs now fight once or twice a year at best.

Okay Grandad.

[margaret thatcher]

liston's reach has also been listed at 80.5 for his fights, a very specific number and not sure why they'd make that up if he was really 84, considering the bias is almost always to list guys as bigger than they are. i think 84 is mythical

[jezzamundo]

liston's reach has also been listed at 80.5 for his fights, a very specific number and not sure why they'd make that up if he was really 84, considering the bias is almost always to list guys as bigger than they are. i think 84 is mythical

I tend to agree - I'm 6'1" and have a 77 inch reach, my arms are very long. I'm more of a Tommy Hearns build, though, nowhere near the size of Liston. A reach just one inch less than Tyson Fury on a 6'1" man sounds very unlikely.

If Liston was around today he could compete at Cruiserweight or Heavyweight and would be a top 5 fighter in either division, but I think Fury beats him, quite likely Usyk too.

[Enlightened-One]

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston was allegedly 33½ years of age and had competed in 36 bouts.

He had lost one of them and had gone the distance eleven times. He wasn't as heavy-handed as many believe him to be.

The average weight of Sonny’s opponents for the first 36 bouts of his career was 196lbs, which is much smaller than today’s cruiserweights (who all have to dehydrate in order to make weight).

Liston’s average weight during the same period was only 207lbs and he wasn’t particularly well-muscled or defined either.

Sonny’s jab was excellent, but his hand-speed, head movement, work-rate and foot work weren’t. He was a tough slugger that got the job done.

Apart from Oscar Rivas, I can’t name a single modern-day world-rated heavyweight fighter that is shorter than the 1963 version of Sonny Liston.

Even Oleksandr Usyk and Deontay Wilder outweigh Sonny Liston, with both guys being much taller than the American all-timer.

Sonny received a lot of hype during his own era, but he wasn’t particularly accomplished, other than his victories over the undersized Floyd Patterson.

He deserves his place in the IBHoF, due to his historical contribution to the sport of boxing, since his story/legend is fascinating, but unfortunately nostalgia compels many people to believe he was capable of things we never actually saw him do inside the ring.

Liston definitely loses to the majority of today’s (mathematical average) 6’4” 245lbs world-rated behemoths.

[p4p1]

liston's reach has also been listed at 80.5 for his fights, a very specific number and not sure why they'd make that up if he was really 84, considering the bias is almost always to list guys as bigger than they are. i think 84 is mythical

Don’t forget that reach is measured by fingertip to fingertip. Liston clearly had long arms but on top of that he had broad shoulders and the monster hands.

[p4p1]

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston was allegedly 33½ years of age and had competed in 36 bouts.

He had lost one of them and had gone the distance eleven times. He wasn't as heavy-handed as many believe him to be.

Tell the whole story. Liston started boxing in prison and turned pro as soon as he got out. In his first 2 and a half years as a pro learning on the job, before he went back to prison he went 14-1 with 7 KOs. In his first 9 fights, one of which he lost he only stopped two of his opponents. After he got out of prison in 1958 he went on a 21-0 run with 19 knockouts. After the Ali fights he would only go the distance once more in 16 fights. During his lone loss in that time he damaged Leotis Martin so badly that he would never be able to fight again. Its clear to see that it took Liston a few fights and a few years to hone his craft while often fighting more experienced opponents.

[oogiebe]

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston was allegedly 33½ years of age and had competed in 36 bouts.

He had lost one of them and had gone the distance eleven times. He wasn't as heavy-handed as many believe him to be.

Tell the whole story. Liston started boxing in prison and turned pro as soon as he got out. In his first 2 and a half years as a pro learning on the job, before he went back to prison he went 14-1 with 7 KOs. In his first 9 fights, one of which he lost he only stopped two of his opponents. After he got out of prison in 1958 he went on a 21-0 run with 19 knockouts. After the Ali fights he would only go the distance once more in 16 fights. During his lone loss in that time he damaged Leotis Martin so badly that he would never be able to fight again. Its clear to see that it took Liston a few fights and a few years to hone his craft while often fighting more experienced opponents.

You're asking Mr. Cherry Picker to tell the whole story!

[Bandog]

Tell the whole story. Liston started boxing in prison and turned pro as soon as he got out. In his first 2 and a half years as a pro learning on the job, before he went back to prison he went 14-1 with 7 KOs. In his first 9 fights, one of which he lost he only stopped two of his opponents. After he got out of prison in 1958 he went on a 21-0 run with 19 knockouts. After the Ali fights he would only go the distance once more in 16 fights. During his lone loss in that time he damaged Leotis Martin so badly that he would never be able to fight again. Its clear to see that it took Liston a few fights and a few years to hone his craft while often fighting more experienced opponents.

You're asking Mr. Cherry Picker to tell the whole story!

No shit! The guy (EO) that copies and pastes his own posts, from a database I'm sure he keeps. Probably has 3-4 computers, all hooked up unless his mom cuts off his wifi for not cleaning his room.

[oogiebe]

Tell the whole story. Liston started boxing in prison and turned pro as soon as he got out. In his first 2 and a half years as a pro learning on the job, before he went back to prison he went 14-1 with 7 KOs. In his first 9 fights, one of which he lost he only stopped two of his opponents. After he got out of prison in 1958 he went on a 21-0 run with 19 knockouts. After the Ali fights he would only go the distance once more in 16 fights. During his lone loss in that time he damaged Leotis Martin so badly that he would never be able to fight again. Its clear to see that it took Liston a few fights and a few years to hone his craft while often fighting more experienced opponents.

You're asking Mr. Cherry Picker to tell the whole story!

No shit! The guy (EO) that copies and pastes his own posts, from a database I'm sure he keeps. Probably has 3-4 computers, all hooked up unless his mom cuts off his wifi for not cleaning his room.

[Enlightened-One]

You're asking Mr. Cherry Picker to tell the whole story!

Which piece of information have I conveyed that you feel was either factually-inaccurate or grossly misleading?

You won't answer that simple question, because you can't. So instead, you'll attempt to be derogatory, since you feel that undermining the arguer will encourage others to dismiss or ignore the facts they've articulated.

That's always been your strategy. And that approach makes me laugh and is also deeply flattering.