FantasyMatchup 1: Roy Jones Jr. vs. Rocky Marciano

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Holyfield was a better inside fighter and better from a distance than Marciano.

holy was better from a distance, BUT HOLY WAS NOT A BETTER INSIDE FIGHTER THAN MARCIANO. marcianos specialty was the inside. he had far more leverage than holy did with thos short stubby arms of his. marciano battered opponents to a bloodly pulp on the inside. marciano hit harder, was the greater all around puncher than holy, and was stronger than holyfield. marcianos physical benifits are more superior on the inside than evanders. evander would get busted up on the inside. marciano would hit evander anywhere and everywhere on the inside. marciano also had an underated uppercut which holy was very suceptible too. look at the way coke a dokes slugged with holyfield. look at how many punches he landed on evander. holy cant fight on the inside and come out alive against marciano.

I think Holyfield showed more incredible recooperative powers than Marciano, who we don't really get to see in that light because the powers that be will not let us see the rounds where Marciano is wobbled by Charles in the first fight.

pleasseeeee.....marciano was not badly wobbled by charles. this is just plain overblown hogwash! PEOPLE EXAGGERATE THINGS. many papers have made claims that so and so are hurt and when u watch the film they actually wernt really hurt. charles hit marciano with some of his best counter right hands and left hooks in the rounds we have film and marciano took them without blinking. marciano faced harder punchers in walcott, moore, old louis, and even layne and none of these guys seriousely wobbled marciano on film. i dare u find one piece of film that shows marciano glasssy eyes, on rubbery legs, or out on his feet. U WONT FIND ANY.


marciano clearly showed his recup powers in the moore and walcott fights. both hit harder than charles. walcott hit marciano with the exact same left hook that he hit ezzard with(ezzard KTFO!!!!) and marciano was up at 3 on steady legs. that punch would have knocked out any other heavyweight in the world. marciano took a flush straight counter right hand from moore. marciano was up at 2 .....his recup powers were extradorinary.even in the louis fight louis nails marciano with a hard left hook at the end of round 1....marciano freezes for a sexcond then out of nohwere comes back with a huge overhand right which buckles louis knees.


though holy faced a much better group of punchers than marciano faced.....i think both have equal recup powers.

Holyfield in his prime was one of the best conditioned boxers in history. His training regimine is stuff of legends and so was his stamina. I think you are gauging '94-'99 Holyfield rather than '89 to '93, which was his peak at heavyweight.

yes lou duva does compare holys conditioning to rocky marciano, but duva doesnt compare holys stamina to marciano. i seen a prime holyfield dead tired in some fights.


holy was about to drop dead in the qawi fight. holy made it look like going 15 hard rounds was life and death.......when old timers used to go 15 hard rounds all the time. marciano after 15 gruelling rounds with ezzard charles was fine, he could have kept going. holy collasped and was done after 15 rounds with qawi. dont tell me that holy had more stamina than marciano. marciano didnt fall to the floor and after to go to the hospital cause he was so dead tired after charles I or walcott I

dont worry i know when a prime holy was. im talking about the 89-93' holyfield who struggled in a lot of his fights and lost to the first very good opponent he faced(bowe nearly knocked him out too).

If they went to war, I'd favor Holyfield to be the fresher fighter in the championship rounds

thats ridiculous. marciano is probably the best championship round fighter in HW history . he carried his power late as good as any champion ever. marciano would unqestionably be fresher by the championship rounds. marciano showed he could go 15 gruelling rounds and still not be dead(charles I). holy showed after 15 hard rounds with qawi he was about to die. holy was about to die after the bowe I and moorer fights. wheres this legendery stamina?

holy certainly didnt look fresh in bowe I where he was dead tired and nearly fell down in the late rounds due to exhaustion. or how bout the michael moorer fight where moorer took over in the late rounds? i know i know holys heart. he had a lot of exuses for his losses. marciano had no exuses for any of his preformances. btw i have done a lot of research on evander and read all his books......i know a good deal about him and how many exuses he made for his preformances.

Holyfield was just as capable (and probably more so) as Marciano at throwing non-stop punches. His fights against Charles, at least what are shown on film, do not show the relentless punch count that so many people claim. His highest output on film against Charles was 82 in the final round of the first fight.

sorry but marciano was a non stop human punching machine when he had the other guy hurt. holy has not shown this on film. in the 6th round of the moore fight.....for literally 1 min straight marciano threw non stop punches, literally non stop until moore finally went down. it was an incredible punch rate something ive never seen holy do in a round before.



i counted 96 punches in the 15th round of the charles fight and this was after 14 gruelling rounds. AND MOST OF THEM WERE POWER PUNCHES!

Oh forgot to say earlier, Walcott was not a better heavyweight than Charles. Walcott had a very inconsistent career with some nice wins, but was only able to score a couple huge wins in his career. Both of those were against Charles, the first a one-punch KO and then second a controversial decision. Walcott was KO'd by a similarly washed up Joe Louis who Ezzard Charles easily defeated.

we will take this to a different thread. one comment. DONT EVER COMPARE THE JOE LOUIS OF 1948 TO THE JOE LOUIS OF 1950 THAT CHARLES FOUGHT. LOUIS AGED DRAMATICALLY AFTER THE WALCOTT FIGHTS

- the 1946-48 joe louis was past his prime but was still a great fighter. WALCOTT BEAT JOE LOUIS IN 1947 ......A MUCH BETTER VERSION OF LOUIS THAN CHARLES FOUGHT. also dont forget walcott was far ahead on points when louis landed perhaps the best combination of his career to put walcott away.

- the 1950-51 version of louis WAS FAR FAR PAST HIS PRIME AND NO LONGER GREAT. louis aged dramatically after the walcott fights. louis had his power and punching arsenal in the walcott fights.....he didnt have it in the charles fights. louis reflexes and timing were way off in the charles fights. louis was horribly rusty. in fact, i think the 1951 joe louis was better than the louis charles beat . watch louis of the savold fight....his reflexes timing were much better and faster. too bad joe louis didnt get a rematch vs charles in 1951.


walcott only a couple huge wins in his career?


walcott beat better competition at heavyweight than charles did......


walcott beat

ezzard charles
joe louis 1947- this huge robbery counts as a win....he beat a much better version of louis than charles beat too.
Lee Q murray
PRIME jimmy bivins
harold johnson
willie reddish
joey maxim
elmer ray
hacthetman sheppard
tommy gomez
joe baksi
lee oma
hein ten hoff
lorenzo pack
omelio agramonte
freddie fiducia


thats better HW competition than charles beat





walcott in a span of 1945-47 completley cleaned out the division. he beat 8 top 10 ranked fighters during those 3 years including the top 2 contenders of the division. walcott unquestionably by 1947 established himself as the # 1 heavyweight contender.



but lets take this subject to another thead. i belive walcott was the better heavyweight. joe louis said walcott was better than charles.

but I would favor Charles to have beaten the Louis that KO'd Walcott.

walcott beat joe louis though in 1947. the series was really 1-1. could charles have gone 2-0 vs louis in 1947-48??? maybe. also dont forget walcott was schooling louis in 48 before louis caught him with an incredible 6 punch combo.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

let me finally say i like holyfield. he was a warrior. but i do not rate him in the top 5 like u do, in fact i dont rate him in my top 10. hes in my top 15 though. I do think i give evander his due. i believe a prime evander beats lennox lewis, i believe had it not been for evanders hepitisis(which on film clearly effected him) that evander would have stopped bowe in the 6th round in there 3rd fight. I do believe however that prime for prime the 86-88 mike tyson knocks out evander holyfield. i also think tysons 1980s title reign was better and more consistent than anything holy ever did.

[evndrbsn]

I thought you were real big on Bob Satterfield. I guess not anymore when it doesn't fit your point. So ... how many times does Ezzard Charles have to beat Archie Moore? Seven, eight times? In a row?

he never fought archie moore at heavyweight. dont forget the 2nd and 3rd moore fights were VERY CLOSE. the charles-moore II fight could was a close fight that could have gone to moore(though jaclem made it clear he thought charles deserved it). the 3rd fight was very close and archie nearly knocked out charles. the series was much closer than u think.


charles allowed maxim to fight for his title. it was the 4th time he fought maxim! u could say how many times does charles have to beat maxim? why didnt charles give archie moore that shot instead of maxim. like maxim, if would have been the 4th time moore fought charles. difference is moore-charles series was much closer than charles-maxim series.


so it appears ur arguement on charles having beat moore 3 times already wont work since charles gave maxim a shot and maxim had already fought charles 3 times.

I didn't say that Maxim deserved a shot. I think that Maxim got a lot of shots he didn't deserve. Just like against Moore. Maxim should have never gotten two rematches against Moore.

I never said that the Charles-Moore series wasn't close. The fact is that Charles won all three without controversy and KO'd Moore in the third fight.

Brockton, I am going to strangle you. You write so damn much that I can't respond to it all! I'm just kidding, but oh my. Give me a while and I'll try to get to it all.

Holyfield was better than Marciano, though

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

with holyfield you have to take the good with the bad. holy was far more inconsistent than marciano, holy never put together a consistent strong title reign, he was way too hot and cold to be rated over marciano. holy struggled in his prime a lot. his title reigns were very unimpressive. holy has losing records vs the two best fighters he ever fought bowe and lennox. holy also lost to a joke of a HW champion michael moorer.

marciano should clearly be rated above evander.

[theone]

holy was better from a distance, BUT HOLY WAS NOT A BETTER INSIDE FIGHTER THAN MARCIANO. marcianos specialty was the inside. he had far more leverage than holy did with thos short stubby arms of his. marciano battered opponents to a bloodly pulp on the inside. marciano hit harder, was the greater all around puncher than holy, and was stronger than holyfield. marcianos physical benifits are more superior on the inside than evanders. evander would get busted up on the inside. marciano would hit evander anywhere and everywhere on the inside. marciano also had an underated uppercut which holy was very suceptible too. look at the way coke a dokes slugged with holyfield. look at how many punches he landed on evander. holy cant fight on the inside and come out alive against marciano.

Holyfield fought much bigger stronger opponents than Marciano. Hoyfield had more to worry about getting inside of his opponents and then staying inside of naturally bigger, stronger men. Marcinao would not be able to get away with alot things he was able to do if he fought the guys Holyfield did.

marciano clearly showed his recup powers in the moore and walcott fights. both hit harder than charles. walcott hit marciano with the exact same left hook that he hit ezzard with(ezzard KTFO!!!!) and marciano was up at 3 on steady legs. that punch would have knocked out any other heavyweight in the world. marciano took a flush straight counter right hand from moore. marciano was up at 2 .....his recup powers were extradorinary.even in the louis fight louis nails marciano with a hard left hook at the end of round 1....marciano freezes for a sexcond then out of nohwere comes back with a huge overhand right which buckles louis knees.

Actually Marciano appears stunned by Moore's kd punch. He was also pretty winded at the end of the fight.

holy was about to drop dead in the qawi fight. holy made it look like going 15 hard rounds was life and death.......when old timers used to go 15 hard rounds all the time. marciano after 15 gruelling rounds with ezzard charles was fine, he could have kept going. holy collasped and was done after 15 rounds with qawi. dont tell me that holy had more stamina than marciano. marciano didnt fall to the floor and after to go to the hospital cause he was so dead tired after charles I or walcott I

Like some one mentioned earlier, it was Holyfields 12th fight! No way would Marciano been able to deal with Qawi in his 12th fight.

Holyfield beat bigger guys stronger guys younger guys. He took punches from Lewis, Bowe, Moorer, Cooper and Tyson. All of these guys punch much harder than anyone Marciano ever fought. I cant imagine anyone Marciano fought troubling Holyfield at all. If Holyfield could deal with Tyson on the inside I dont see what a shorter, lighter, much slower and shorter armed fighter like Marciano could do.
Even when he fought Holyfield Tyson was stronger, much faster and tougher than the Rock. Could you imagine Charles going toe for toe with him, or Walcott and Moore dropping him? Please, be real.

As for Lewis, itr would be much worse for the Rock. I see Lewis dispatching in devastating fashion.
Sure, Rahman and McCall ko'd him. These are big men with big reaches who punched very hard and were able to landed lucky shots(rematches proved emphatically that they got lucky). A 5'10 185lb. fighter with tender skin and a very short reach doesnt stand much of a chance with Lewis, I dont care how much heart he has.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Like some one mentioned earlier, it was Holyfields 12th fight! No way would Marciano been able to deal with Qawi in his 12th fight.

holyfield had an incredible amount of amatuer experience. he had world class training.


marciano in his 12th pro fight wasnt even being trained by charlie goldman yet! marciano had virtually no amatuer experience and had no world class training by his 12th pro fight.


BIG DIFFERENCE!

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Holyfield fought much bigger stronger opponents than Marciano. Hoyfield had more to worry about getting inside of his opponents and then staying inside of naturally bigger, stronger men. Marcinao would not be able to get away with alot things he was able to do if he fought the guys Holyfield did.

so wut....marciano never had those type of opponents to fight. marciano would be 205lb if he were fighting in holys era and i cant see any of them beating a 205lb marciano.holy got to bulk up. marciano gets the same benefit too right? so when u compare marciano to holys era make sure u say a 200-205lb marciano who got the same benefits holy did.

Actually Marciano appears stunned by Moore's kd punch. He was also pretty winded at the end of the fight.

funny i remember marciano up at 2..... charging right back into moore making moore miss his follow up punches. i didnt see any wobbly legs.

marciano wasnt training with the same intensity anymore by the moore fight. he was starting to lose it....though marciano fought a spectacular fight vs moore.

Holyfield beat bigger guys stronger guys younger guys. He took punches from Lewis, Bowe, Moorer, Cooper and Tyson. All of these guys punch much harder than anyone Marciano ever fought. I cant imagine anyone Marciano fought troubling Holyfield at all. If Holyfield could deal with Tyson on the inside I dont see what a shorter, lighter, much slower and shorter armed fighter like Marciano could do.

moorer?? since when did he have a punch at heavyweight? walcott certainly hit harder than michael moorer.

mike tyson was NOT a good inside fighter. where do u get this crap? even in his prime his biggest weakness was on the inside. tyson was not strong on the inside, did not have good inside fighting skills.......especially the far past his prime tyson holyfield beat.

remember were talking about a 205lb marciano here

Even when he fought Holyfield Tyson was stronger, much faster and tougher than the Rock. Could you imagine Charles going toe for toe with him, or Walcott and Moore dropping him? Please, be real.

tyson was not stronger. he didnt apply his strength as well as marciano did. once again were talking a 205lb marciano here.

charles did not go toe to toe with marciano. in the early rounds charles boxed and counterpunched and only in the late rounds when charles was worn down did he switch to inside fighting cause he couldnt keep marciano off him. charles could afford to do this cause he was such a great inside fighter. if walcott hit holyfield flush with his left hook......holy would do down. were talking a prime 205lb holyfield here. walcott was 197lb not much smaller.

As for Lewis, itr would be much worse for the Rock. I see Lewis dispatching in devastating fashion.
Sure, Rahman and McCall ko'd him. These are big men with big reaches who punched very hard and were able to landed lucky shots(rematches proved emphatically that they got lucky). A 5'10 185lb. fighter with tender skin and a very short reach doesnt stand much of a chance with Lewis, I dont care how much heart he has.

so wut if there big? marciano still was a greater puncher than rahman and mccall. if marciano fought lewis, he would come into the ring with modern benefits at 205lb.....sorry but lewis aint beating that machine!

A 5'10 185lb. fighter with tender skin and a very short reach doesnt stand much of a chance with Lewis, I dont care how much heart he has.

marciano was a lot more than that. he was a non stop punching machine, power of a superheavyweight, great all around puncher, incredible stamina, one of the strongest HW champs ever, very durable, very unpredictable, good body attack, effective defense made him hard to hit cleanly, great inside fighter, great championship round fighter.

lewis was a crappy inside fighter. marciano would get on the inside and use his leverage effectivley. lewis had a habit of dropping his left after he jabbed. marciano had one of the greatest overhand rights in history. lewis at some point in the fight will drop that left and BOOM....LIGHTS OUT!

[theone]

olyfield had an incredible amount of amatuer experience. he had world class training.
marciano in his 12th pro fight wasnt even being trained by charlie goldman yet! marciano had virtually no amatuer experience and had no world class training by his 12th pro fight.
BIG DIFFERENCE!

Irrelevant. The fact remains that using the Qawi fight as a detriment to Holyfield doesnt make sense. 12 profesional fights is still only 12 professional fights and against a fighter like Qawi, its quite a feat that Holyfield was even competative.

[theone]

so wut....marciano never had those type of opponents to fight. marciano would be 205lb if he were fighting in holys era and i cant see any of them beating a 205lb marciano.holy got to bulk up. marciano gets the same benefit too right? so when u compare marciano to holys era make sure u say a 200-205lb marciano who got the same benefits holy did.

If Marciano weight 205 pds he would probably be alot slower and clumsier than he already was. Marciano did not appear to have the type of frame to pack on additional weight and still be effective like Dempsey and Louis appeared to have. Holyfield definitely had it.

tyson was not stronger. he didnt apply his strength as well as marciano did. once again were talking a 205lb marciano here.

If you truly believe that Marciano was stronger than Tyson then you are dellusional and no argument will ever change your mind.

charles did not go toe to toe with marciano. in the early rounds charles boxed and counterpunched and only in the late rounds when charles was worn down did he switch to inside fighting cause he couldnt keep marciano off him. charles could afford to do this cause he was such a great inside fighter. if walcott hit holyfield flush with his left hook......holy would do down. were talking a prime 205lb holyfield here. walcott was 197lb not much smaller.

There were plenty of toe to toe exchanges in the first Charles/Marciano fight. Something Charles would not have accomplished against Holyfield.
If Walcott hit Holyfield with a left hook a flinch would be the most he would get. You keep saying Holyfield was a 305lb. Heavyweight. In fact he only wieghed that much or less only twice in his heavyweight career. A better average would be around 215. A rock solid 215 at that.

so wut if there big? marciano still was a greater puncher than rahman and mccall. if marciano fought lewis, he would come into the ring with modern benefits at 205lb.....sorry but lewis aint beating that machine!

Even Marciano at 205 would be ko'd by Lewis. Probably even quicker.

marciano was a lot more than that. he was a non stop punching machine, power of a superheavyweight, great all around puncher, incredible stamina, one of the strongest HW champs ever, very durable, very unpredictable, good body attack, effective defense made him hard to hit cleanly, great inside fighter, great championship round fighter.

lewis was a crappy inside fighter. marciano would get on the inside and use his leverage effectivley. lewis had a habit of dropping his left after he jabbed. marciano had one of the greatest overhand rights in history. lewis at some point in the fight will drop that left and BOOM....LIGHTS OUT!

Marciano would get battered and torn up by Lewis's punches before he got anywhere near inside. Marciano stubby arms, especially at your fantasy weight would never reach Lewis's chin. It would be similiar to Lewis's fight with Tua, except Marciano would not possess Tua's chin or durability to last the entire fight.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

If Marciano weight 205 pds he would probably be alot slower and clumsier than he already was. Marciano did not appear to have the type of frame to pack on additional weight and still be effective like Dempsey and Louis appeared to have. Holyfield definitely had it.
Quote:

marciano was naturally well over 200lb. he had to train fanatically just to get down under 190lb. marcianos brother told me in between fights rocky weighed well over 200lb. marciano was incredibly big boned..... he had the body of a heavyweight. he defintley could carry up to 200lb and still be very effective.

remember in marcianos prime 1951.....he weighed in at 193lb vs keene simmons and put on a helluva punch rate in this fight without getting tired. he was very effective in this simmons fight despite weighing 193lb. simmons was very durable......huge punchers Cleveland williams and valdes couldnt stop williams. marciano also weighed 191lb and 190lb vs johnny skhor and big bill wilson. this is all without modern benefits.

its not like marciano naturally weighed 185lb...cause he defintley did not. with modern benefits and nutrition........marciano could go up to 200-205lb without it effecting any of his ability. after that it would, but 200-205lb sounds right.


so theone, if u disagree please state why.



i do believe demspey could carry more weight than marciano though. joe louis in his prime weighed 206-207lb in 1942.



l

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

There were plenty of toe to toe exchanges in the first Charles/Marciano fight. Something Charles would not have accomplished against Holyfield.

im comparing the peak 1951-52 slugger one punch KO artist marciano vs holyfield. not the 54-55 arm puncher volume puncher marciano who goldman changed his style causing a decrease in power.


also those were toe toe toe slugouts. it was charles displaying his trendous infighting skills. didnt drugged up michael dokes go toe to toe with evander holyfield and have a lot of success?

[AndreWardFan2006]

Heavyweights today should weigh in under 220 lbs. Any weight over that and you have two large guys throwing punches that can be telegraphed, it's not as fun watching that. Seems like Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, all the old greats weighed in at healthy weights and put on better shows. They should set a limit.


~A.W.F~

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

theone.........holyfields heavyweight prime was 1989-93 when he weighed 205lb on average. not the bulked up slower 215lb holyfield.


i know u like those big heavyweights and u want to make it look like holy was as big as possible so it doesnt look like a blown up 190lb ruled an era of superheavyweights.....u have the bigger is better disease

[theone]

theone.........holyfields heavyweight prime was 1989-93 when he weighed 205lb on average. not the bulked up slower 215lb holyfield.

i know u like those big heavyweights and u want to make it look like holy was as big as possible so it doesnt look like a blown up 190lb ruled an era of superheavyweights.....u have the bigger is better disease

Actually you are trying to make him as small as possible to match him more favorably with Marciano opponents. Like I alreadt mentioned he only fought at 205 or lighter as a heavyweight twice. In fact in his three greatest fights he was 217(BoweII),215(TysonI) and 214(MooreII).

also those were toe toe toe slugouts. it was charles displaying his trendous infighting skills. didnt drugged up michael dokes go toe to toe with evander holyfield and have a lot of success?

Dokes was a very good, very strong heavyweight who was 6'3 225lbs.
It was Holyfields third fight with a true heavyweight. No way does a 180lb. past his prime Charles going to have anywhere near the success that Dokes had.

marciano was naturally well over 200lb. he had to train fanatically just to get down under 190lb. marcianos brother told me in between fights rocky weighed well over 200lb. marciano was incredibly big boned..... he had the body of a heavyweight. he defintley could carry up to 200lb and still be very effective.

Then why didnt he? If he could comfortably fight at 205 why toture himself to get to 185lb? Doesnt make any sense. The only reason he fought so light was because he had to to be effective.

[evndrbsn]

Like some one mentioned earlier, it was Holyfields 12th fight! No way would Marciano been able to deal with Qawi in his 12th fight.

holyfield had an incredible amount of amatuer experience. he had world class training.


marciano in his 12th pro fight wasnt even being trained by charlie goldman yet! marciano had virtually no amatuer experience and had no world class training by his 12th pro fight.


BIG DIFFERENCE!

Wasn't Marciano supposed to go to the Olympics but pulled out due to a broken thumb? Even at 8-4, he must have been good enough.

Still, I think the point you are making doesn't count. Holyfield's amateur experience went to the wayside when he fought Qawi. In the amateurs, its about straight, quick punches to the head for three 3-minute rounds (at the time). Holyfield and Qawi went to war without headgear, for 12 rounds longer than Holyfield ever did as an amateur. How many amateur stars do you think Qawi would have KO'd that night other than Holyfield?

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

naw not the olympics.....the national golden gloves. but he could have possibly qualified for the olympics had he been able to compete and done well in the national golden gloves.

marciano had no world class training until around his 10th pro bout


rockys biggest amatuer fight came against coley wallace.........

a completley raw marciano fought one of the best amatuer heavyweight in the country colley wallace in the golden gloves tournament. rockys family and friends were nervous...that rocky had drawn such a good opponent in the opening round. bur rocky didnt care. wallace was a big 6'3 200lb amatuer heavyweight with a 17-0(17) record. he was being touted as the next joe louis. he fought like louis, EVEN LOOKED LIKE HIM! wallace had beaten clarence henry, bob baker(both guys who ended up becoming top pro contenders) and a bunch of other solid amatuers. wallace was the big favorite in the marciano fight. but the very green no exerpeince marciano shocked everyone by bullying around and outfighting wallace. wallace packed a huge right hand yet it seemed to have no effect on marciano during the fight as he took it and kept punching back with tiger like intentions. however, in the end the decision went to wallace. the fans booed and threw bottles in the ring. it was a very controversial decison which rocky to the day he died swore belonged to him.


rocky in the amatuers = strong, durable, lots of heart, with a huge right hand......but no left hook, absolutley no skill, and no defense.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i do give holy major props for the qawi win

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Dokes was a very good, very strong heavyweight who was 6'3 225lbs.
It was Holyfields third fight with a true heavyweight. No way does a 180lb. past his prime Charles going to have anywhere near the success that Dokes had.

theone dont be a hypocrite. if ur gonna call charles past his prime, the dont forget to mention the fact dokes was past his prime as well and all drugged up by 1990. i dont care if dokes was a true heavyweight.......he had nowhere near the skill of ezzard charles. thats wut it comes down too. ill pick charles over dokes anyday of the week.

Actually you are trying to make him as small as possible to match him more favorably with Marciano opponents. Like I alreadt mentioned he only fought at 205 or lighter as a heavyweight twice. In fact in his three greatest fights he was 217(BoweII),215(TysonI) and 214(MooreII).

evsrbn, holys biggest fan claims holyfields prime was 89-93. i agree.... u will see holy looks a lot faster, sharper, his reflexes are better in these years. so were taking the 205lb holyfield of these years. not the slower, bulked up holyfield.

Then why didnt he? If he could comfortably fight at 205 why toture himself to get to 185lb? Doesnt make any sense. The only reason he fought so light was because he had to to be effective.

u say dempsey and louis carried the weight better. then why did dempsey torture himself down to 180lb vs willard? why didnt dempsey fight at 205lb? why didnt louis come in at 220lb???


as for marciano......he didnt have the modern benefits, nutrition that enabled you to bulk up in weight and not lose speed, stamina, or coordination. they didnt have these benefits during marcianos time.


i spoke with goody petronelli and peter marciano.......both said marciano would come into the ring 20-30lb heavier today.


marciano naturally weighed well over 200lb in between fights. peter even told me this.

[theone]

theone dont be a hypocrite. if ur gonna call charles past his prime, the dont forget to mention the fact dokes was past his prime as well and all drugged up by 1990. i dont care if dokes was a true heavyweight.......he had nowhere near the skill of ezzard charles. thats wut it comes down too. ill pick charles over dokes anyday of the week.

How am I being a hypocrite? Its obvious to almost everyone but you that Charles was past his best when he fought Rocky.
I saw the Holyfield/Dokes fight only once, the night they fought. I dont recall anyone calling Dokes washed up or past his prime back then. Dokes had only one career defeat and was on an 11 fight win streak with no signs that he was on a decline. I dont know all the details of his drug use but as far as I remember he didnt look burnt out in that fight, and preformed quite well.

evsrbn, holys biggest fan claims holyfields prime was 89-93. i agree.... u will see holy looks a lot faster, sharper, his reflexes are better in these years. so were taking the 205lb holyfield of these years. not the slower, bulked up holyfield.

As much as I repect evndrbsn's opinion I dont agree with him on this point. It was the second lightest he ever weighed as a heavyweight and lost his only fight. Holyifled best preformances were around the 215 range so that for me is his best fighting weight.

u say dempsey and louis carried the weight better. then why did dempsey torture himself down to 180lb vs willard? why didnt dempsey fight at 205lb? why didnt louis come in at 220lb???

I never said they could carry the weight better, I said they appeared like they could. I have no idea what they walked around at or why they fought so light. If there are any resident experts of these two fighters on this sight please let me know.
Brock, you seem to be the expert on Marciano and claim he wouild have competed at over 200lbs, with ease. So I'm askin, with as much as he hated to train, if he could have fought at that weight comfortably why didnt he? With the Rocks frame and stubby arms I think he fought at the only wieght range he would have been competetive at. I doubt modern training methods would have helped much either.

[The Great John L]

With the Rocks frame and stubby arms I think he fought at the only wieght range he would have been competetive at. I doubt modern training methods would have helped much either.

Of course they would. With modern training techniques he could have bulked up to an unnatural weight and then get exahausted after about 5 rounds just like "modern" HWs.

[barry]

>>>Its obvious to almost everyone but you that Charles was past his best when he fought Rocky.<<<


Charles was past his prime, but he still fought a great and very courageous fight!


>>>I saw the Holyfield/Dokes fight only once, the night they fought. I dont recall anyone calling Dokes washed up or past his prime back then. Dokes had only one career defeat and was on an 11 fight win streak with no signs that he was on a decline. I dont know all the details of his drug use but as far as I remember he didnt look burnt out in that fight, and preformed quite well.<<<


Dokes was past his prime when he fought Holyfield, but he was still very capable and still one of the top heavyweights around at that time. He was certainly well into drugs at that point, but it didn’t seem to show in the bout as he fought a very ballsy fight, but I don’t think Dokes compares favorably one bit to Ezzard Charles.

Holyfield’s best years were between 1985 and 1993 and his very best was probably right around 1987.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

How am I being a hypocrite? Its obvious to almost everyone but you that Charles was past his best when he fought Rocky.
I saw the Holyfield/Dokes fight only once, the night they fought. I dont recall anyone calling Dokes washed up or past his prime back then.

o so charles was past his prime but suddenly dokes wasnt? BIAS!

dokes hadnt done anything in about 8 years since he last held the title and was getting heavily involved in drugs. dokes fought a helluva fight vs holyfield and showed he was still dangerous.... but he was still past his prime.


everyone knows dokes prime was the very early 1980s

Its obvious to almost everyone but you that Charles was past his best when he fought Rocky.

actually i do say charles was past his prime when he fought rocky......ive said it a million times. how many more times do i need to say it?

that doesnt take away the fact that the june 1954 charles was still a great fighter and it took a great fighter(marciano) to beat him that night.

I saw the Holyfield/Dokes fight only once, the night they fought. I dont recall anyone calling Dokes washed up or past his prime back then

really? cause i dont recall any newspapers claiming charles was washed up or past his prime AFTER the first marciano fight. in fact they were claiming it was one of his best preformances.




both dokes and charles were past there prime. but marciano still beat a much better fighter on june 1954 than holyfield beat in 1989

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

im pretty sure people were calling dokes washed up after he took a long layoff from the coetzee loss......

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Brock, you seem to be the expert on Marciano and claim he wouild have competed at over 200lbs, with ease. So I'm askin, with as much as he hated to train, if he could have fought at that weight comfortably why didnt he? With the Rocks frame and stubby arms I think he fought at the only wieght range he would have been competetive at. I doubt modern training methods would have helped much either.

marciano could go up to 200-205lb but no more. but after 205lb...it would affect his preformance. dempsey could carry more than that as he had a better frame in carrying weight....


u doubt modern training methods would have helped? so even though they seem to help every fighter who fights in the modern times......they most certainly couldnt help an old timer like rocky marciano.


rocky was incredibly big boned... he had the body of a heavyweight. this is why he could carry extra weight. he naturally weighed well over 200lb. certainly he could carry 15 extra lb in weight with modern benefits and still not hinder his preformance.


give marciano todays nutrition, supplements, modern technogoly, weight training..... his handlers would put him on a healthy plan that would enable him to fight at 200-205lb without hindering his preformance.


you must remember in between fights chris bryd is only 195lb. he actually has to bulk up completley to weigh in at 210lb. marciano in between fights was around 210-215lb. so clearly its easier for marciano to lose uneeded weight and add some bulk rather than byrd struggling to gain weight and making himself bloated. bryd did not have the frame of a heavyweight, marciano does.



everyone talks about wut great shape 5'8 tua was in when he was 225lb. he was shorter than marciano and had nearly the same reach. surely marciano could go up to 205lb and still be the same if 5'8 tua could be considered in great shape at 225lb.




why didnt rocky fight heavier during his time? because he didnt have the modern technology that enabled him to build even more muscle without hindering his preformance. rocky didnt touch weights. he didnt have the same nutrition back then. he didnt have supplements. with modern technology...marcianos handlers will put rocky on a program that will increase his strength, power, speed. it will enable him to put on just a few lbs of bulk that will help him more than hurt him. fighters problems today is they put on too much bulk.

last reason? cause marciano didnt have super heavyweights to fight during his day. u think marciano is going to handicap himself by coming into the ring at 185lb? or do u think hes gonna take advantage of the modern benefits to come into the ring at 200-205lb? almost everyone who fights at heavyweight today bulks up. everyone who fights at heavyweight today fights at over 200lb.

[The Great John L]

im pretty sure people were calling dokes washed up after he took a long layoff from the coetzee loss......

Not sure he was being called washed up, but he wasn’t generally regarded as one of the very top HWs at that time. I live in Akron so am pretty familiar with Dokes, and he was a truly wasted talent. I would agree that he was very much on the decline when he fought Holyfield although he still had a lot left. Of course at no time was he in the same class as Charles. Even in his prime I don’t think he was quite as good as the faded Charles that fought Rocky in their first encounter.