Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

[HomicideHenry]

There was an awful lot of fights at the turn of the 20th century following the invention of film especially where two men would make a deal with each other to essentially go easy.

Part of this would be to set up a rematch down the road where they could play for keeps so it was like getting paid twice.

Another aspect of it was especially among top contenders and champions that you got paid more money if the fight film was longer, so a lot of guys would go the entire 10 or 15 or 20, etc rounds because there was more money in it.

Yet another part of it all was legal aspects because most jurisdictions frowned upon boxing so a lot of the matches would be essentially glorified sparring because the moment somebody got hurt or somebody became too aggressive the police would arrest them both.

And yes on occasion there would be guys who knew they were well out of their league against somebody else and the veteran would essentially carry the guy four rounds or six rounds or eight rounds, only for them to meet up later and have a real fight.

In a way it reminds me of Reggie Strickland back in the 2000s and the 1990s, because one of his fighters told me that they all used to travel together in a van and Reggie would sell himself as well as everybody else to a promoter as opponents to be on a card. Well sometimes the guys in the van would fight each other on these cards because they were essentially filler anyways, and one night one guy would win and the next night the other guy would win that way they had wins on their resume.

[Ambling Alp II]

I'm one of those who think we was better in the 70s than he was in the 60s.

I respect your opinion, but..... Which parts of his game do you think were better?

His overall game was better. And ring craft. His skillset improved too. His whole game became much more versatile. He faced more formidable punchers and yet was dropped fewer times.

He was dropped twice in the 1960s and twice in the 1970s. (Never down for more than the count of three in either decade)
He was knocked down twice pre-title, a flash knockdown against Banks in his 11th fight, and then Cooper.
He was never knocked down in his title fights in the 1960s.

He had to fight different strategies in the 70s because he no longer was as fast on his feet and also could move as much before tiring.

He was clearly better in the 1960s. Absurd that we have to argue this. We never do this with anyone else.

[oogiebe]

I respect your opinion, but..... Which parts of his game do you think were better?

His overall game was better. And ring craft. His skillset improved too. His whole game became much more versatile. He faced more formidable punchers and yet was dropped fewer times.

He was dropped twice in the 1960s and twice in the 1970s. (Never down for more than the count of three in either decade)
He was knocked down twice pre-title, a flash knockdown against Banks in his 11th fight, and then Cooper.
He was never knocked down in his title fights in the 1960s.

He had to fight different strategies in the 70s because he no longer was as fast on his feet and also could move as much before tiring.

He was clearly better in the 1960s. Absurd that we have to argue this. We never do this with anyone else.

@Ezzard. I agree to some extent. It's sort of how Big George was a better ring general in his comeback, but young George was more fearsome. Ali was all about speed in his go-round. His comeback he was all about finding ways to win.

[DrDuke]

I respect your opinion, but..... Which parts of his game do you think were better?

His overall game was better. And ring craft. His skillset improved too. His whole game became much more versatile. He faced more formidable punchers and yet was dropped fewer times.

He was dropped twice in the 1960s and twice in the 1970s. (Never down for more than the count of three in either decade)
He was knocked down twice pre-title, a flash knockdown against Banks in his 11th fight, and then Cooper.
He was never knocked down in his title fights in the 1960s.

He had to fight different strategies in the 70s because he no longer was as fast on his feet and also could move as much before tiring.

He was clearly better in the 1960s. Absurd that we have to argue this. We never do this with anyone else.

Have you ejaculated after writing this?

[oogiebe]

His overall game was better. And ring craft. His skillset improved too. His whole game became much more versatile. He faced more formidable punchers and yet was dropped fewer times.

He was dropped twice in the 1960s and twice in the 1970s. (Never down for more than the count of three in either decade)
He was knocked down twice pre-title, a flash knockdown against Banks in his 11th fight, and then Cooper.
He was never knocked down in his title fights in the 1960s.

He had to fight different strategies in the 70s because he no longer was as fast on his feet and also could move as much before tiring.

He was clearly better in the 1960s. Absurd that we have to argue this. We never do this with anyone else.

Have you ejaculated after writing this?

My kids are staring at me because I'm sitting here laughing hysterically!!!!

[Ezzard]

His overall game was better. And ring craft. His skillset improved too. His whole game became much more versatile. He faced more formidable punchers and yet was dropped fewer times.

He was dropped twice in the 1960s and twice in the 1970s. (Never down for more than the count of three in either decade)
He was knocked down twice pre-title, a flash knockdown against Banks in his 11th fight, and then Cooper.
He was never knocked down in his title fights in the 1960s.

He had to fight different strategies in the 70s because he no longer was as fast on his feet and also could move as much before tiring.

He was clearly better in the 1960s. Absurd that we have to argue this. We never do this with anyone else.

@Ezzard. I agree to some extent. It's sort of how Big George was a better ring general in his comeback, but young George was more fearsome. Ali was all about speed in his go-round. His comeback he was all about finding ways to win.

There's a saying about great footballers... "He's lost a yard of pace but he's all the better for it." You could see this with players like Zidane, Breitner, Platini, Socrates and even Beckenbauer. I'd bet on 70s Ali to beat 60s Ali more often than not.

[Ambling Alp II]

The Ali of the 1970s would never have beaten the Ali of the 1964-1967.

[HomicideHenry]

The Ali of the 1970s would never have beaten the Ali of the 1964-1967.

That's easy to say that but I think if people were asked whether they could beat their younger self they would probably argue that since they were older and wiser and knew more than they did when they were fitter or faster that they could defeat their younger self because of the experience they gained that they did not have when they were younger.

[DrDuke]

Lol at how fanbois try to shorten prime years of their heroes. Ali being in prime for 3 years is a one of the biggest anecdotes ever.

[gilgamesh]

The Ali of the 1970s would never have beaten the Ali of the 1964-1967.

That's easy to say that but I think if people were asked whether they could beat their younger self they would probably argue that since they were older and wiser and knew more than they did when they were fitter or faster that they could defeat their younger self because of the experience they gained that they did not have when they were younger.

Hmm...makes me wonder now. I at 35 could definitely beat the 18 year old me who fought my 1 amateur fight. Not sure if I could beat the me who trained hard for a 2nd bout he never got to fight though. Because there for a few months I was fighting fit, and ready to f*ck some sh*t up.

But only 1 person wound up feeling what I was physically capable of then, and it wasn't in the ring.

The 1 thing I undoubtedly would have going for me now is calm. I'd be WAY more calm and collected going into a fight than I would've been then.

[Ambling Alp II]

The Ali of the 1970s would never have beaten the Ali of the 1964-1967.

That's easy to say that but I think if people were asked whether they could beat their younger self they would probably argue that since they were older and wiser and knew more than they did when they were fitter or faster that they could defeat their younger self because of the experience they gained that they did not have when they were younger.

It's easy to say because it's the obvious truth. The video and commonsense doesn't lie. If this wasn't Ali, nobody would try to argue otherwise. At a certain point experience just becomes old age.

[The Docker]

The Ali of the 1970s would never have beaten the Ali of the 1964-1967.

Who would be that spectacularly dumb to suggest otherwise? It's a given this would be a 15round decision fight as neither version would knock the other out. The worst opponent for 1970s Ali would be 1960s Ali. There is a distinct possibility if this played out that 60s Ali would win by total shutout on the cards.

[gilgamesh]

Lol at how fanbois try to shorten prime years of their heroes. Ali being in prime for 3 years is a one of the biggest anecdotes ever.

Mike Tyson fans take the cake on that one. He was past his prime when he was what? 23?

[DrDuke]

Lol at how fanbois try to shorten prime years of their heroes. Ali being in prime for 3 years is a one of the biggest anecdotes ever.

Mike Tyson fans take the cake on that one. He was past his prime when he was what? 23?

With Tyson it's even more or less sound, he indeed declined after a change of the coach, but with Ali it's a total joke. His fanbois give wins of sh1thouses like London or Williams as an evidence of Ali's invulnerability.

[HomicideHenry]

Lol at how fanbois try to shorten prime years of their heroes. Ali being in prime for 3 years is a one of the biggest anecdotes ever.

Mike Tyson fans take the cake on that one. He was past his prime when he was what? 23?

With Tyson it's even more or less sound, he indeed declined after a change of the coach, but with Ali it's a total joke. His fanbois give wins of sh1thouses like London or Williams as an evidence of Ali's invulnerability.

Personally I always thought that Muhammad Ali's one-sided performance over Brian London was probably the best he had because at least London was still in his prime. He wasn't literally broken down and shot like Cleveland Williams was, even if Brian London never did achieve the kind of status that Williams once had.

I'm of the opinion had Muhammad Ali not been exiled his career potentially would have been over by 1974-1975 instead of 1978 because he would have had so much wear and tear had he had those three years back. It's pretty much a certainty had he been allowed to keep competing he would have gotten slower anyways so by 1969 he would have probably met Joe Frazier and would have gotten beat anyways.

As for Mike Tyson it's pretty clear-cut the changes in his performances and his overall abilities declining even when he was still in his prime years. He shifted from being an overall fighter into being a headhunter, the discipline started going down the tubes, and he was largely getting by on his name while facing spoon-fed opponents to keep the illusion alive that he was still the baddest man on the planet.

Peak performances and prime years are subtly different. I would say that Mike Tyson's peak performance was probably Trevor Berbick, maybe Michael Spinks. But his prime went into the mid 90s. He only continued to be a contender well into the early 2000s because of his name and knocking over bums. Ali's peak performance is a matter of debate as far as I'm concerned, though his prime years were 1964-1967.

Although to be honest with you the best I ever seen Muhammad Ali perform was in his losing effort against Joe Frazier in the fight of the century at Madison Square Garden. People may disagree with me but he did look more impressive to my mind than he did at any time prior to that. The only problem was he was finally competing against somebody just as good or great as he was.

[Ambling Alp II]

He had many better than the one against Frazier. He looked rusty, was clearly slower, and got tired early and had to give away rounds. He didn't look better in away from when he was in his prime.

In the 10 title fights he had in his prime were, he was clearly better.
He also fought better in his 2nd and third fights against Frazier.
clearly was better in the Foreman fight. Looked better in several other fights against guys that weren't in the class of these guys. He looked better in the 2nd Quarry fight. He got rid of the ring rust and was better than when he first came back but not as good as his prime. Which is logical.

Love how some people realize Tyson wasn't as good when he came back but Ali was magically better.

[DrDuke]

He had many better than the one against Frazier. He looked rusty, was clearly slower, and got tired early and had to give away rounds. He didn't look better in away from when he was in his prime.

In the 10 title fights he had in his prime were, he was clearly better.
He also fought better in his 2nd and third fights against Frazier.
clearly was better in the Foreman fight. Looked better in several other fights against guys that weren't in the class of these guys. He looked better in the 2nd Quarry fight. He got rid of the ring rust and was better than when he first came back but not as good as his prime. Which is logical.

Love how some people realize Tyson wasn't as good when he came back but Ali was magically better.

Do you think Ali became less handsome after the layoff?

[oogiebe]

He had many better than the one against Frazier. He looked rusty, was clearly slower, and got tired early and had to give away rounds. He didn't look better in away from when he was in his prime.

In the 10 title fights he had in his prime were, he was clearly better.
He also fought better in his 2nd and third fights against Frazier.
clearly was better in the Foreman fight. Looked better in several other fights against guys that weren't in the class of these guys. He looked better in the 2nd Quarry fight. He got rid of the ring rust and was better than when he first came back but not as good as his prime. Which is logical.

Love how some people realize Tyson wasn't as good when he came back but Ali was magically better.

Do you think Ali became less handsome after the layoff?

[Ambling Alp II]

He had many better than the one against Frazier. He looked rusty, was clearly slower, and got tired early and had to give away rounds. He didn't look better in away from when he was in his prime.

In the 10 title fights he had in his prime were, he was clearly better.
He also fought better in his 2nd and third fights against Frazier.
clearly was better in the Foreman fight. Looked better in several other fights against guys that weren't in the class of these guys. He looked better in the 2nd Quarry fight. He got rid of the ring rust and was better than when he first came back but not as good as his prime. Which is logical.

Love how some people realize Tyson wasn't as good when he came back but Ali was magically better.

Do you think Ali became less handsome after the layoff?

Really, again with this crap? I (like many) am an Ali fan. you (like many) are not fine.
I don't say anything about him that I wouldn't about someone else in a similar situation.

Look at what you do with your favorites?
You call Lewis getting decked by McCall a "lucky" punch.
Vitaly Klitschko has a "freakish chin".
Tyson Fury is "elusive".

If your guy is doesn't get decked during a round, you give it to him.
i.,e. - You have Lennox Lewis beat Holyfield by a shutout in the first fight.
Even though Fury did almost nothing offensively in the first Wilder fight, you gave him all 10 rounds in which he didn't get decked.

How about your odd worship of David Haye?
How about you going on and about Tommy Morrison, who is somehow the "white Tyson" ?

[DrDuke]

He had many better than the one against Frazier. He looked rusty, was clearly slower, and got tired early and had to give away rounds. He didn't look better in away from when he was in his prime.

In the 10 title fights he had in his prime were, he was clearly better.
He also fought better in his 2nd and third fights against Frazier.
clearly was better in the Foreman fight. Looked better in several other fights against guys that weren't in the class of these guys. He looked better in the 2nd Quarry fight. He got rid of the ring rust and was better than when he first came back but not as good as his prime. Which is logical.

Love how some people realize Tyson wasn't as good when he came back but Ali was magically better.

Do you think Ali became less handsome after the layoff?

Really, again with this crap? I (like many) am an Ali fan. you (like many) are not fine.
I don't say anything about him that I wouldn't about someone else in a similar situation.

Look at what you do with your favorites?
You call Lewis getting decked by McCall a "lucky" punch.
Vitaly Klitschko has a "freakish chin".
Tyson Fury is "elusive".

If your guy is doesn't get decked during a round, you give it to him.
i.,e. - You have Lennox Lewis beat Holyfield by a shutout in the first fight.
Even though Fury did almost nothing offensively in the first Wilder fight, you gave him all 10 rounds in which he didn't get decked.

How about your odd worship of David Haye?
How about you going on and about Tommy Morrison, who is somehow the "white Tyson" ?

So, now Vitali and Haye are my favorites.

It's so ridiculous, when the idiot fanbois are ready to pick up a random fighter to rip him off in return to any points about their heroes with which they disagree.

[AngryGoon38]

Ali could've gave Foreman a rematch in 1975 but he chose to fight Frazier instead, for the trilogy.
Frazier was blind in one eye. It was caused by the speed-bag swivel. The metal fragments got all in there and
Destroyed one of his eyes. That is Scarey. How Frazier was willing to fight on from that point is just Nuts.
He was able to bypass the pre fight eye exam by remembering the letters beforehand on the chart.
Someone emphatically pointed out on a YouTube video not too long ago about these hidden facts.
He was obviously a serious critic of Ali but really, he did make valid points to consider.
This particular Ali Critic seemed to imply that Ali knew that Frazier was blind in one eye, and therefore decided to
Be opportunistic about the trilogy premise, even against a guy that he knew was blind in one eye. Ali Much Preferred this bout over rematching Foreman.

[Ambling Alp II]

Foreman was out of the game in 1975, outside of exhibitions. Frazier was the #1 contender. Ali fought him. Not much more to it than that.

[oogiebe]

Foreman was out of the game in 1975, outside of exhibitions. Frazier was the #1 contender. Ali fought him. Not much more to it than that.

I don't think Ali wanted Foreman a second time. After '75 he beat Lyle; Frazier again; Ledoux and one or two others.

[DrDuke]

Probably Foreman would get a rematch soon in a case of defeating Young, but...

[Tony1244]

Frazier and Norton would have, and did, give Ali trouble. The other names I don't agree with.