I think Lennox Lewis owes you money or something!!!!RazorKO wrote:Tyson may of been younger in age, but people seem to forget that Tyson was the undisputed HW champ BEFORE Lewis turned Pro!dr_devious wrote:The win over Tyson is credible in as much as it happened although I admit it was the shell of Mike Tyson. What is also credible is that the younger Mike Tyson ducked Lewis in the mid 90s to the tune of chucking his WBC belt away and paying him $3m to avoid him. Bowe also chucked his WBC belt away rather than face Lewis who kicked his ass in the Olympics. And old man Holyfield didnt beat Lewis in the rematch, though it was a close fight.RazorKO wrote: So you truly think the Lewis win over Tyson is credible?![]()
Hell prime Lewis LOST to old man Holyfield the rematch and if Lewis fought Bowe Riddick would of put him in a coma no question.
Wilfred Benitez was past it at 23, which is the same as Tyson but it seems everybody seems to forget this fact.
Lewis may of been older (1 year to be exact which is nothing) but Tyson was fighting years before Lewis and Lewis has never engaged in the great wars Tyson has been either.
Gerry Cooney vs Lewis?
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Syntax Error
- Heavyweight

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Re: Gerry Cooney vs Lewis?
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WelshDevil
- Heavyweight

- Posts: 536
- Joined: 18 Sep 2006, 14:23
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WelshDevil
- Heavyweight

- Posts: 536
- Joined: 18 Sep 2006, 14:23
yiddo14 wrote:Warren was'nt exactly Lewis' greatest fan......he was up on his feet,cheering when McCall beat Lewis,thats a fact.RazorKO wrote:Good post and Bert Sugar who is a very respected boxing historian is right. Dont forget even allegedly allegedly allegedly, a BRITISH promoter even said in a Sky One (The channel is called Sky One here, not sure what its called in the UK) progamme whilst talking about the great fighters of the sport that 'Great fighters just do not get knocked out by the likes of McCall and Rahman'. Unlike other promoters and interviewers, Warren speaks his mind and tells it as it is which is why I respect the man.Ross wrote:As In said earlier we will never know who would win, but I get amused at all the people who come running to LL defence. Cooney /Lewis is a fight that I think could really go either way. Which comes back to LL was just not that good.
LL was lucky to come along when the division was week and he was able to dominate.
I think Burt Suger sums it up the best when he rated the top twenty H/weights of all time, Tyson and Holyfield rate both come in jsut outside the top ten with LL coming in at 19. For a Champion that many of you seem to think was the greatest fighter ever - coming in 19th by a true Historian of the game says it all.
Lewis was great in is time, does in go dow in history as one of the greats - no way.
Ross
I don't doubt Sugar's credentials,and have'nt stated anywhere that I do.
I just think his lists are crap,and far too pro American.
Can anyone here really argue that Jake La Motta was a better fighter than Carlos Monzon!!??!?
Or that Gene Tunney ranks a lot higher than Larry Holmes in the all time top heavyweights!!!!
Lewis whooped 2 of the guys on that top 20 list,and would of crushed Tunney within 5 rounds,so how he finishes 15 or so places behind him is a bit strange......
Agreed allegedly has nothing positive too say about any British fighter who doesn't fight for him.
On the Flipside Big George Foreman said 'Lennox Lewis is the Greatest'
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Eric the Viking
- Heavyweight

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Re: Gerry Cooney vs Lewis?
Aside from several of these being quite arguable, I find it strange that you omitted "boxing skill" from your list.RazorKO wrote:Power - Cooney
Speed- Lewis
Heart - Cooney
Endurance - Cooney
Cuts - Lewis
Chin - Cooney by a mile
To be honest I thought it wouldnt as I thought I'd be the only one who would pick Gerry to win, but I found on this thread that some people are open minded and dont just suck up to Lewis, as Lewis had great weaknesses which puts him out of the top 10 HW rankings.Ross wrote:Good one Razor did you think this post would go on as long as it has?
For example Lewis lost in my mind to Mercer while a past it Holmes won every round against Mercer. Lewis never fought a war because his chin is unable to withstand the punishment, as you have stated correctly when he goes down he STAYS down.
Larry Holmes for example is a true definition of a great fighter and according to Larry Holmes in an interview I have of him, Lewis even refused to fight a 48 year old Holmes stating that Holmes 'Had a good jab' and therefore not fighting him. He probably saw how a past it Holmes gave McCall a very close fight, the same McCall who had Lewis grogging like a hapless drunk.
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SandySadler
- Heavyweight

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Re: Gerry Cooney vs Lewis?
Jerry CooneyThe Great John L wrote:Who's JC?SandySadler wrote:...I'd go with JC...
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overhand_right
- Heavyweight

Heres Razor taking people on face value again.RazorKO wrote:
according to Larry Holmes in an interview I have of him, Lewis even refused to fight a 48 year old Holmes stating that Holmes 'Had a good jab' and therefore not fighting him. He probably saw how a past it Holmes gave McCall a very close fight, the same McCall who had Lewis grogging like a hapless drunk.
Yo Razor- maybe, JUST MAYBE, Lennox might possibly have been humouring the 48 year old grandpa? A garndpa who had just been gifted a decision over journeyman Mo Harris, one of Lewis's sparring partners.
LL, a man who always fought anybody, ducking a 48 year old man?
PLEASE!!
Thanks for this...Terence wrote: For me it is a shame that Lewis got Tyson late as he would have destroyed him at any point, including that mystical, Garden of Eden, Never Never Land prime of Tyson's that lasted for 93 seconds versus a scared, blown-up guy. Tyson was a bully boy with limited ability and a great PR machine, even that could not paper of the cracks that emerged as soon as the guy was put under pressure.
This Never Never Land still comes up here every now and then. Can't we just make this a sticky so we don't have to read over and over about PRIME MT
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dr_devious
- Heavyweight

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- Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 09:19
Re: Gerry Cooney vs Lewis?
Im not arguing the case about Tyson being 1 year younger, but the number of years between him ducking Lewis and then eventually fighting him. Tyson in the mid 90s was about 30 years old when he was chucking belts away and paying Lewis off, and was still a dangerous fighter, not prime Tyson, but not the shell of Tyson circa 2002. Tyson only fought Lennox when he was desperate for the payday. Also, Lewis was winning Olympic golds, and kicking Bowes ass in the process when Tyson was champRazorKO wrote: Tyson may of been younger in age, but people seem to forget that Tyson was the undisputed HW champ BEFORE Lewis turned Pro!
Wilfred Benitez was past it at 23, which is the same as Tyson but it seems everybody seems to forget this fact.
Lewis may of been older (1 year to be exact which is nothing) but Tyson was fighting years before Lewis and Lewis has never engaged in the great wars Tyson has been either.
Got to agree. He looked great clearing out the end of the 1980s contenders but we never saw him in a give and take fight until Douglas...Terence wrote:Yeah, it is funny how his prime was cut right before his first loss, which would have been in most fighters prime years. It is also funny as his losses occcured when he was ancient but all follow a pattern; face him down, back him up, stand up to him, out-box him, cut him and then take him out. Could it be a flaw? Surely not, it must be a coincidence!Ezzard wrote:Thanks for this...Terence wrote: For me it is a shame that Lewis got Tyson late as he would have destroyed him at any point, including that mystical, Garden of Eden, Never Never Land prime of Tyson's that lasted for 93 seconds versus a scared, blown-up guy. Tyson was a bully boy with limited ability and a great PR machine, even that could not paper of the cracks that emerged as soon as the guy was put under pressure.![]()
This Never Never Land still comes up here every now and then. Can't we just make this a sticky so we don't have to read over and over about PRIME MT
Plus Tyson has such a tough career, failing to make a fight out of it time after time when back against the wall, fighting and getting beaten-up are miles apart. Plus Lewis got to take it easy through all those amateur years
He was a top fighter but what infuriates me are those who refuse to see the flaws in his style and his psychological make-up.
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight

- Posts: 4351
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Of course, Tyson did a LOT more taking than giving against Douglas.Ezzard wrote:Got to agree. He looked great clearing out the end of the 1980s contenders but we never saw him in a give and take fight until Douglas...
Last edited by The Great John L on 19 Sep 2006, 10:21, edited 1 time in total.
Ezzard wrote:Terence wrote: For me it is a shame that Lewis got Tyson late as he would have destroyed him at any point, including that mystical, Garden of Eden, Never Never Land prime of Tyson's that lasted for 93 seconds versus a scared, blown-up guy. Tyson was a bully boy with limited ability and a great PR machine, even that could not paper of the cracks that emerged as soon as the guy was put under pressure.
Tyson a bullyboy with limited ability? Name ONE Heavyweight with the sole exception of Joe Louis that had immense handspeed mixed in with one shot power because Id like to know.
Also If Tyson 'Wilted' under pressure how comes he beat Ruddock both times where the Razor had him in trouble with those powerful left hooks?
If Tyson 'Wilted' under pressure how on earth did he remain on his feet for 10 whole rounds of a sustianed beating from Douglas.....but had the reserve to DROP Douglas and argubaly was down for more than 10 seconds?
If Tyson 'Wilted' under pressure how was he able to fight 11 hard tough rounds with Holyfield the first time around?
If Tyson 'Wilted' under pressure how was he able to KO Frans Botha, a fight where he was behind on points?
Id myself rather lose to Douglas and the Great Holyfield than have KO defeats over a mentally unstable crackhead and a journeyman resulting from a single punch.Terence wrote:Douglas took his '0' and handed him his arse.
Great shout Ezzard, if someone came along now and swept through the deadwood, plus Lewis came back old and flabby and they beat him up would we be saying this mythical heavyweight was a top ten guy?
Every time the book of legends opened up Tyson got hammered into defeat.
Well the closest person I can think off who had the punching power and speed is Louis. You still havent answered my question however about naming a HW who had these unique attributes. And then you say Tyson has limited ability!Louis didn't, for me, have immense handspeed, he placed his shots with accuracy and expertise. Look beyond Tyson's fast hands and see that he threw fast shots but they could be inaccuarate and he often dropped the other hand. He was not a complete package, most rational people accept this. He had to club Pinklon Thomas over.
You're not average if you knockout 4 former World champs and give the best of his era tough fights. Lewis got Ruddock when he was already finished from those 19 rounds with Tyson, 10 of those rounds where he fought with a broken jaw. Plus as I already stated on how these so called 'Fans' treated him during the intervals. Tell me this though, where do these so called British 'Fans' get all this hate from? Booing the fighter is one thing, but booing the national anthem is a pure disgrace.He beat Ruddock both times because Ruddock is an average heavyweight with skills distinctly un-Pep like who was easy to hit and somehow got caught in the slipstream of Tyson's overblown hype. The real Razor Ruddock stood up, briefly we must say, in front of Lewis and was KO'd in a couple of one-sided rounds.
Conversely he wilted in the second fight by biting Evander's ear due to the fact Evander had just taken his best shots, blinked and was about to beat the ever loving shit out of him for another 7 or so rounds.
Yet again you seem to forget that Tyson was WINNING, thats right WINNING the 3rd round against Holyfield in the rematch. It looked just like a prime Mike and it looked to me that Evander was starting to get into trouble, why would Tyson bite Holyfield's ear when he was just starting to hurt him? But then again both Holyfield and Tyson are true HW greats.
And Lewis made Shannon Briggs look like a Prime Foreman who had just demolished Frazier for the title, but then again Lewis doesnt deserve to be mentioned in the same sentance as Big George.He KO'd Botha because Botha is shit beyond a lower level. He also made Botha look like Sugar Ray (both of them) until he got that shot in.
Just like how a prime Ali lost to Berbick, or how about Ron Crammer when he beat the hell of a prime Jerry Quarry? Crammer according to your logic must be a hidden HW great.Tyson lost to a fat blamonge and that rarity, a sober Irishman who can still muster up a fight.
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Cojimar 1945
- Heavyweight

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Tyson losses
Tyson does have some embarresing losses but the same is also true for Lennox Lewis. Lewis ranks higher than Tyson but if one is going to criticize Tyson for losing to Douglas and Holyfield than Lewis is also open to critisism for his losses.
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight

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- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
I give up. I don’t know, why would he?RazorKO wrote:Yet again you seem to forget that Tyson was WINNING, thats right WINNING the 3rd round against Holyfield in the rematch. It looked just like a prime Mike and it looked to me that Evander was starting to get into trouble, why would Tyson bite Holyfield's ear when he was just starting to hurt him?
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WelshDevil
- Heavyweight

- Posts: 536
- Joined: 18 Sep 2006, 14:23
Re: Tyson losses
Cojimar 1945 wrote:Tyson does have some embarresing losses but the same is also true for Lennox Lewis. Lewis ranks higher than Tyson but if one is going to criticize Tyson for losing to Douglas and Holyfield than Lewis is also open to critisism for his losses.
Goodpoint and commonsense
At the end of the day most levelheaded boxingfans will acknowledge that Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson were GREAT Heavyweights.
By the way they'd both have knocked-out Gerry Cooney
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Cojimar 1945
- Heavyweight

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losses
That's a good point about Tyson not avenging his losses. Lewis avenged both his losses and Holyfield was able to defeat Moorer in a rematch. Another heavyweight that failed to avenge any of his losses was Foreman. Foreman actually never had an opportunity to do so because he never had remathes with any of the guys that beat him.
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jezzamundo
- Heavyweight

- Posts: 3127
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overhand_right
- Heavyweight

Razor... You think Tyson was WINNING the 3rd rd v Holyfield..?
The rd wasn't even complete, yet he was trying to break Holys arm & twice bit his ear. He came out swining wildly in desperation at the start & Holy wisely backed up, but THAT WAS IT. He was not winning. He was desperate.
As for wining about any supposed headbutts, Tyson was always happy to use his own head, shoulder, elbow, hit after the bell, just ask Holmes, Bruno, Douglas, Ruddock, etc. Too bad someone turned his own bully boy tactics back round on him.
The rd wasn't even complete, yet he was trying to break Holys arm & twice bit his ear. He came out swining wildly in desperation at the start & Holy wisely backed up, but THAT WAS IT. He was not winning. He was desperate.
As for wining about any supposed headbutts, Tyson was always happy to use his own head, shoulder, elbow, hit after the bell, just ask Holmes, Bruno, Douglas, Ruddock, etc. Too bad someone turned his own bully boy tactics back round on him.
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overhand_right
- Heavyweight

As for Ruddock being shot...
Well I have the majority of Ruddock fights on tape. I fail to see any evidence whatsoever in his two 1992 pre-Lewis fights of being shot, when he scores a stoppage of rock-skulled & in shape ex-champ Greg Page, and undefeated Phil Jackson.
Maybe LL was just a hell of a lot better than Tyson. Razor, your fighting a losing battle. Stop being so pig headed & close minded and accept the mass of info soooo many much more well informed Boxrec users are trying their hardest to eduacte you with.
Well I have the majority of Ruddock fights on tape. I fail to see any evidence whatsoever in his two 1992 pre-Lewis fights of being shot, when he scores a stoppage of rock-skulled & in shape ex-champ Greg Page, and undefeated Phil Jackson.
Maybe LL was just a hell of a lot better than Tyson. Razor, your fighting a losing battle. Stop being so pig headed & close minded and accept the mass of info soooo many much more well informed Boxrec users are trying their hardest to eduacte you with.
The truth is that Ruddock was never that exceptional to start with... good power mainly but other than that not exceptional in anything... he was hardly the second coming of George Foreman... his hard fights with Tyson say as much for the ear eaters flaws and limitations as they do about Ruddocks ability.... also if Ruddock was so affected by the crowd against Lewis then he obviously didnt have the heart to make it in the ring... facing hostile crowds is something that fighters should be able to do with ease if they are the real deal...
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight

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Gee, a Boxrec poster who actually gives Lewis credit for something.overhand_right wrote:As for Ruddock being shot...
Well I have the majority of Ruddock fights on tape. I fail to see any evidence whatsoever in his two 1992 pre-Lewis fights of being shot, when he scores a stoppage of rock-skulled & in shape ex-champ Greg Page, and undefeated Phil Jackson.
Maybe LL was just a hell of a lot better than Tyson. Razor, your fighting a losing battle. Stop being so pig headed & close minded and accept the mass of info soooo many much more well informed Boxrec users are trying their hardest to eduacte you with.