Mike McCallum vs Tony Zale

[Ambling Alp II]

Kalambay was a good fighter. But if McCallum was anywhere near as good as you said he was, he would not have lost to him the first time and barely beat him the second.
Kalambay lost to Ayub Kalue. When Kalue was well past his best.
Kalambay also knocked out in the first round by Nunn.

Imagine of a guy that you didn't like lost to Kalambay. You would go on about it constantly. But you don't because McCallum is one of your favorites.

[gilgamesh]

Kalambay was a good fighter. But if McCallum was anywhere near as good as you said he was, he would not have lost to him the first time and barely beat him the second.
Kalambay lost to Ayub Kalue. When Kalue was well past his best.
Kalambay also knocked out in the first round by Nunn.

Imagine of a guy that you didn't like lost to Kalambay. You would go on about it constantly. But you don't because McCallum is one of your favorites.

He lost to Kalambay! Kalambay wasn't even a real boxer. I understand Kalambay actually had a job on the side that wasn't Boxing on occasion. He wasn't even a real boxer!

[elmersalsa]

Kalambay was a good fighter. But if McCallum was anywhere near as good as you said he was, he would not have lost to him the first time and barely beat him the second.
Kalambay lost to Ayub Kalue. When Kalue was well past his best.
Kalambay also knocked out in the first round by Nunn.

Imagine of a guy that you didn't like lost to Kalambay. You would go on about it constantly. But you don't because McCallum is one of your favorites.

He lost to Kalambay! Kalambay wasn't even a real boxer. I understand Kalambay actually had a job on the side that wasn't Boxing on occasion. He wasn't even a real boxer!

So, wasn't Two Ton Tony Galento.

[Cojimar 1946]

Zale "somehow" missed out on them? Ever hear of World War II? Zale was there for 4 years.
What was he supposed to do, go AWOL and defend the middleweight title?

These guys were available to fight pre-war and post-war. He could have faced every one of them. 40/41/42 would have been a perfect time to face them and Burley was still around post war.

They may have been available to fight but they were not top contenders.
Before Zale served in WWII:
Booker and Marshall wasn't even the top 10
Burley had a draw with Abrams. Zale defeated Abrams.
Moore only for a brief time. He was inconsistent.
After the War, Burley briefly.

Saying he ducked these guys is quite a reach.

In reality they were top contenders and I would probably favor all of them over Zale. Several of them have better top wins than Zale himself.

Newspapers accounts have Burley beating Abrams

[gilgamesh]

Kalambay was a good fighter. But if McCallum was anywhere near as good as you said he was, he would not have lost to him the first time and barely beat him the second.
Kalambay lost to Ayub Kalue. When Kalue was well past his best.
Kalambay also knocked out in the first round by Nunn.

Imagine of a guy that you didn't like lost to Kalambay. You would go on about it constantly. But you don't because McCallum is one of your favorites.

He lost to Kalambay! Kalambay wasn't even a real boxer. I understand Kalambay actually had a job on the side that wasn't Boxing on occasion. He wasn't even a real boxer!

So, wasn't Two Ton Tony Galento.

I was just messing around with the above comment. Mocking the stupidity of your remarks toward Tony Galento.

The fact that you think so many people were real boxers, while Tony Galento who fought more than most people you can name wasn't is the stupidest opinion you have, and that's saying something because stupid opinions are your thing.

[elmersalsa]

He lost to Kalambay! Kalambay wasn't even a real boxer. I understand Kalambay actually had a job on the side that wasn't Boxing on occasion. He wasn't even a real boxer!

So, wasn't Two Ton Tony Galento.

I was just messing around with the above comment. Mocking the stupidity of your remarks toward Tony Galento.

The fact that you think so many people were real boxers, while Tony Galento who fought more than most people you can name wasn't is the stupidest opinion you have, and that's saying something because stupid opinions are your thing.

Now, my comments are stupid. That's were you lose the argument every time.

Two Ton Tony Galento wasn't a real boxer. He was an ice block carrier. That was his main job. Boxing didn't meant nothing to him but to bring food to the table. He ate hot dogs, drank lots of beer, smoked cigars and was always out of shape.

He was a happy go lucky guy that didn't give a damn about boxing, unless if it was to bring food to the table. He was so terrible and awful that retired legend, Jack Dempsey, kicked his ass in a sparring session. Dempsey at least was 10 years out in retirement.

He only fought 29 amateur fights. That means that he never cared about the sport unless if it gives him something for his wallet. He never took boxing seriously.


If I said stupid things, what about you? You ain't far behind beyond stupid.

[Expug]

Can’t base too much on Dempsey kicking Galentos ass in sparring. I watched Juan Nazario smack Duran around sparring at the fuller park gym in 1988. Then I watched Jeff Lanas beat him at the Chicago amphitheater. They gave it to Duran but Lanas should have gotten the decision. Also, Galento having only 29 amateur fights doesn’t mean he didn’t take boxing serious. How many amateur fights did Duran have? Marciano only had a handful. Billy Conn had none

[elmersalsa]

Can’t base too much on Dempsey kicking Galentos ass in sparring. I watched Juan Nazario smack Duran around sparring at the fuller park gym in 1988. Then I watched Jeff Lanas beat him at the Chicago amphitheater. They gave it to Duran but Lanas should have gotten the decision. Also, Galento having only 29 amateur fights doesn’t mean he didn’t take boxing serious. How many amateur fights did Duran have? Marciano only had a handful. Billy Conn had none

And you really believe that Two Ton Tony Galento really was a boxer that took the sport of boxing seriously?

Do you believe that Two Ton Tony Galento drops Deontay Wilder? Anthony Joshua? The Klitschko brothers? Tyson Fury? Andy Ruiz?

[Expug]

I believe any heavyweight fighter who lands on another fighters chin could potentially drop him. I don’t know if you realize just how hard a good Middleweight can crack. Let alone a heavyweight.

[elmersalsa]

I believe any heavyweight fighter who lands on another fighters chin could potentially drop him. I don’t know if you realize just how hard a good Middleweight can crack. Let alone a heavyweight.

Well, I guess Two Ton Tony Galento needs a ladder to connect Deontay Wilder's chin.

[gilgamesh]

I believe any heavyweight fighter who lands on another fighters chin could potentially drop him. I don’t know if you realize just how hard a good Middleweight can crack. Let alone a heavyweight.

Well, I guess Two Ton Tony Galento needs a ladder to connect Deontay Wilder's chin.

David Haye didn't need one to rock Valuev. Jack Dempsey didn't need one to reach Jess Willard.

A height differential is a challenge, yes. It isn't an insurmountable one.

Shorter fighters have beaten Taller fighters on many, many, many, many occasions throughout Boxing history.

[goose 5]

I'm curious how a primitive fighter would give The Body snatcher a great fight ?

[elmersalsa]

I believe any heavyweight fighter who lands on another fighters chin could potentially drop him. I don’t know if you realize just how hard a good Middleweight can crack. Let alone a heavyweight.

Well, I guess Two Ton Tony Galento needs a ladder to connect Deontay Wilder's chin.

David Haye didn't need one to rock Valuev. Jack Dempsey didn't need one to reach Jess Willard.

A height differential is a challenge, yes. It isn't an insurmountable one.

Shorter fighters have beaten Taller fighters on many, many, many, many occasions throughout Boxing history.

Two Ton Tony Galento is 5'7". Deontay Wilder is 6'6". Anthony Joshua is 6'6". And the Klitschko brothers and Tyson Fury average 6'7 or 6'8" the minimum.

I think that Galento would get crush in 20 seconds by these giants.

[elmersalsa]

I'm curious how a primitive fighter would give The Body snatcher a great fight ?

In no kind of way Tony Zale beats Mike McCallum. McCallum beats Zale every day of the week and twice on Sunday. He was that great.

[Ambling Alp II]

So, wasn't Two Ton Tony Galento.

I was just messing around with the above comment. Mocking the stupidity of your remarks toward Tony Galento.

The fact that you think so many people were real boxers, while Tony Galento who fought more than most people you can name wasn't is the stupidest opinion you have, and that's saying something because stupid opinions are your thing.

Now, my comments are stupid. That's were you lose the argument every time.

Two Ton Tony Galento wasn't a real boxer. He was an ice block carrier. That was his main job. Boxing didn't meant nothing to him but to bring food to the table. He ate hot dogs, drank lots of beer, smoked cigars and was always out of shape.

He was a happy go lucky guy that didn't give a damn about boxing, unless if it was to bring food to the table. He was so terrible and awful that retired legend, Jack Dempsey, kicked his ass in a sparring session. Dempsey at least was 10 years out in retirement.

He only fought 29 amateur fights. That means that he never cared about the sport unless if it gives him something for his wallet. He never took boxing seriously.


If I said stupid things, what about you? You ain't far behind beyond stupid.

No, he has not said stupid things. you have elmer.
George Foreman and countless others had less than 29 amateur fights.
Nobody is saying that Galento was a legend. just that he hit hard enough to knockdown a great fighter.
You always seem to forget that Louis did knockout Galento in the 3rd round.

There are many, many cases in boxing history where a great fighter got knocked down by someone that was nowhere near being great.
It's stupid to be so obsessed with this knockdown to the point that you but ignore Louis' great career.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Joe lois wasnt a real fighter, he was in the army, a soldier for crying out loud.

[gilgamesh]

I was just messing around with the above comment. Mocking the stupidity of your remarks toward Tony Galento.

The fact that you think so many people were real boxers, while Tony Galento who fought more than most people you can name wasn't is the stupidest opinion you have, and that's saying something because stupid opinions are your thing.

Now, my comments are stupid. That's were you lose the argument every time.

Two Ton Tony Galento wasn't a real boxer. He was an ice block carrier. That was his main job. Boxing didn't meant nothing to him but to bring food to the table. He ate hot dogs, drank lots of beer, smoked cigars and was always out of shape.

He was a happy go lucky guy that didn't give a damn about boxing, unless if it was to bring food to the table. He was so terrible and awful that retired legend, Jack Dempsey, kicked his ass in a sparring session. Dempsey at least was 10 years out in retirement.

He only fought 29 amateur fights. That means that he never cared about the sport unless if it gives him something for his wallet. He never took boxing seriously.


If I said stupid things, what about you? You ain't far behind beyond stupid.

No, he has not said stupid things. you have elmer.
George Foreman and countless others had less than 29 amateur fights.
Nobody is saying that Galento was a legend. just that he hit hard enough to knockdown a great fighter.
You always seem to forget that Louis did knockout Galento in the 3rd round.

There are many, many cases in boxing history where a great fighter got knocked down by someone that was nowhere near being great.
It's stupid to be so obsessed with this knockdown to the point that you but ignore Louis' great career.

It'd be akin to focusing on a time Tom Brady got sacked by a less than stellar defensive player, and ignoring all of his Superbowl wins, and performances.

[elmersalsa]

I was just messing around with the above comment. Mocking the stupidity of your remarks toward Tony Galento.

The fact that you think so many people were real boxers, while Tony Galento who fought more than most people you can name wasn't is the stupidest opinion you have, and that's saying something because stupid opinions are your thing.

Now, my comments are stupid. That's were you lose the argument every time.

Two Ton Tony Galento wasn't a real boxer. He was an ice block carrier. That was his main job. Boxing didn't meant nothing to him but to bring food to the table. He ate hot dogs, drank lots of beer, smoked cigars and was always out of shape.

He was a happy go lucky guy that didn't give a damn about boxing, unless if it was to bring food to the table. He was so terrible and awful that retired legend, Jack Dempsey, kicked his ass in a sparring session. Dempsey at least was 10 years out in retirement.

He only fought 29 amateur fights. That means that he never cared about the sport unless if it gives him something for his wallet. He never took boxing seriously.


If I said stupid things, what about you? You ain't far behind beyond stupid.

No, he has not said stupid things. you have elmer.
George Foreman and countless others had less than 29 amateur fights.
Nobody is saying that Galento was a legend. just that he hit hard enough to knockdown a great fighter.
You always seem to forget that Louis did knockout Galento in the 3rd round.

There are many, many cases in boxing history where a great fighter got knocked down by someone that was nowhere near being great.
It's stupid to be so obsessed with this knockdown to the point that you but ignore Louis' great career.

Joe Louis as great as he was cannot survive these giants. He won't be on top.
Not with those primitive skills.
Not with that chin.
And definitely not with that weight. He barely made the 200lbs mark.

He was great in his time.

[Ambling Alp II]

And again, you aren't listening. You just keep repeating the same dumb things over and over. Things that different people have shown in different ways to be stupid. People have tried to explain things in many different ways and you keep ignoring their points.

[goose 5]

Elmer: what I'm asking you is how would a primitive Zale give a guy who was levels above him a great fight ?You made both those statements earlier in this thread. It seems to me that the guy who was levels above should dominate a primitive opponent.

[elmersalsa]

And again, you aren't listening. You just keep repeating the same dumb things over and over. Things that different people have shown in different ways to be stupid. People have tried to explain things in many different ways and you keep ignoring their points.

You haven't explained a god damned thang! I told you already that Joe Louis cannot compete in today's heavyweight scene. Too small and too chinny for these giants. The minute these giants crack him, it's all over. He ain't getting up.

Just keep believing your dumb self into nostalgia. It's 2025. Not 1936 nor 1940. Heavyweights have evolved since then in every aspect of boxing.

[elmersalsa]

Elmer: what I'm asking you is how would a primitive Zale give a guy who was levels above him a great fight ?You made both those statements earlier in this thread. It seems to me that the guy who was levels above should dominate a primitive opponent.

Do you really believe Tony Zale beats Mike McCallum? And explain why. Not with those primitive skills, he won't.

I want to see your take on this. Because my take is that McCallum whups Zale every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Maybe three times on Sunday.

[goose 5]

I'm asking you why do you think a primitive Zale gives Mike a great fight if he's levels below ? I already said that the Zale i've seen on tape loses to MCCallum. I'm not disagreeing with you on who wins.

[Ambling Alp II]

These guys were available to fight pre-war and post-war. He could have faced every one of them. 40/41/42 would have been a perfect time to face them and Burley was still around post war.

They may have been available to fight but they were not top contenders.
Before Zale served in WWII:
Booker and Marshall wasn't even the top 10
Burley had a draw with Abrams. Zale defeated Abrams.
Moore only for a brief time. He was inconsistent.
After the War, Burley briefly.

Saying he ducked these guys is quite a reach.

In reality they were top contenders and I would probably favor all of them over Zale. Several of them have better top wins than Zale himself.

Newspapers accounts have Burley beating Abrams

No they were not all top contenders at the time.
Zale won the title in 1941. He joined the Navy in early 1942. That is a very short period of time.
Moore had not beaten anyone at all. He had fought Yarosz, but lost. Lost to Hogue in 1940 and 1941.
Booker had beaten nobody of note either.
Marshall had beat a past Brouillard, and not much else. Lost to Yarosz in late 1940 and Houge in early 1941. You can't complain about getting a title shot by losing fights.

In 1941, there is no reason at all for Moore, Booker, and Marshall to be in the Top 10, much less be considered a "top contender".
Burley was the only legitimate contender. He had some notable fights, won some and lost some and had draws. Certainly, did not establish himself as the #1 contender.

you have to follow the timeline of how things actually happened.

[Cojimar 1946]

Realistically with what we now know these guys would have to be favored over Burley whether he intentionally ducked them or not. We know Marshall is better than Burley thanks to wins over guys like Charles and LaMotta. So we have every reason to favor him or Burley over Zale in 41/42. You could argue that none of them established themselves as the clear number one so it wasn't a huge duck but Zale beating them seems unlikely.

Perfectly reasonable to not have Zale top 5 in his own era which by normal criteria means Zale doesn't qualify as great