Sonny Liston,One of the most accomplished Heavies in history

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Oct 2006, 17:13

Part I.

Sonny Liston gets sold very short in accomplishments category. He accomplished alot in his heavyweight career, and his resume has very very little holes in it compared to other heavyweight champions. I am going to leave out listons skill in this thread and concentrate on his resume.

Now lets Breakdown Listons Competition..........

A. Thrown To the Wolved Early

Some fighters are coddled on there way up. Not Liston. He was thrown to the wolves very early and came out on top. Being thrown to the wolves early in your career and doing well is a big accomplishment that not many heavyweight champions can lay claim to.

Liston as an inexperienced amatuer beat Olympic Heavyweight Champion 6'4 210lb Huge Punching Ed Sanders. Liston was very inexperienced yet beat Sanders on his jab alone. Liston showing natural talent like this and dominating a far more experienced favorite is something that should be warranted.

Entering the pros........

Liston in his first 5 fights is thrown in against 3 guys with above average records including a 4-0 fighter, and is thrown in against 3 guys weighing above 200lb.

In just his 6th and 7th pro fights, Liston is thrown in against Contender 20-1 Johnny Summerlin. Johnny Summerlin was one of the best heavyweight contenders of the mid 1950s and was a very dangerous fighter who beat strong opposition. A very raw inexperienced Liston twice beats one of the best HW contenders of the mid 1950s Johnny Summerlin. Liston outboxed him in very close fights. Not many heavyweight champions in history beat such a good fighter by there 6th pro fight.

In listons 8th pro fight, he is thrown in against # 7 ranked light-heavyweight contender 18-5 experienced flashy marty marshall. Liston outboxes the much more experienced world class marshall until clowning techniques made liston get his jaw broken, slowing liston down and liston toughened in out to last in the distance in losing a close split decision loss. Liston then rematches world class Marty Marshall and a still very green sonny beats the shit out of marshall knocking him out in 6.

after 10 pro fights, Liston held wins over johnny summerlin 2x, and Marty Marshall. Not many heavyweight champions beat this good competition by there first 10 fights. in fact the only one i can think of is james jeffries. So liston is thrown to the wolves very early in his pro career yet comes out 9-1 in his first 10 fights with 3 of those wins coming over ranked contenders.

Liston has a very casual unimpressive year in 1955 but then picks up in 1956 with a one sided dominating win over marty marshall to win the trilogy. But now one must remember, Sonny Liston was originally scheduled to face harold johnson on that date in 1956. Liston was just a green 14-1 kid yet his management was going to send Liston in vs # 1 ranked contender hall of famer 54-7 harold johnson? just 4 days before the harold johnson-sonny liston fight, johnson pulled out due to an injury. A inexpereinced green Liston should get alot of credit for taking on such a fighter that early in his career. Its too bad this fight didnt happen, because it would have most likely really helped sonnys legacy had he done well(and maybe even won).

So liston in his first 15 fights takes on harold johnson(cancelled), marty marshall 3x, and johnny summerlin 2x. thats defintley called being thrown to the wolves. yet liston came out 15-1. So this looks good for liston.

What Could Have Been?

on a sidenote, had liston not missed out on fighting most of 1956 and all of 1957, his legacy would be even better because he was just starting to mature into his physical prime by 1956 and liston most likely would fought alot in 1956-57 and added top quality names like young jack johnson, harold carter, hurricane jackson, harold johnson to win resume which would have further enhanced his legacy......and liston might have gotten a title shot sooner than he did. So like louis missed out in 42-45, sonny missed out in 56-57 2 prime years of tearing up the division.

B. Cleaning out the division 1958-60 to establish # 1 contender

Liston went he came back from prison in 1958 tore up the division like no one we seen before. from 1958-62 Liston cleaned out the top heavyweight contenders in his division like no heavyweight champion ever did.

Sonny Liston beat top ten ranked contenders like nino valdez, cleveland williams 2x, eddie machen, zora folley, mike dejohn, roy harris, wayne bethea, albert westphal. Liston clearly established himself the # 1 contender by in a 3 year period 58-60 consistently beat all of the top contenders in the heavyweight division.

Liston challenged and sought to fight all the top heavyweights 1958-62. The only one who liston missed out on fighting were henry cooper, harold johnson, archie moore, and ingemar johannsen.

HOWEVER.......

liston was scheduled to fight harold johnson in 1956, but johnson pulled out with 4 days left due to injury. So we cant hold it against sonny for not fighting harold(who was a top fighter during listons era)

Henry Cooper- henry cooper and coopers manager publicity stated they wanted no part of sonny liston. you cant fight fighters who duck you. plain and simple.

Archie Moore- Archie by the late 50s-early 1960s was really starting to decline and he was no longer a force to be reckon with. Moore was not going after the big fights in the heavyweight division anymore, and lost his status as a top 10 contender.

ingemar johannsen- johannsen was heavyweight champ during listons era. Liston publicly challenged johannsen many times, and called him out on numerous occasions even offering to fight patterson and ingo on the same night. Ingo ducked liston, wanted no part of sonny liston. You cant fight who ducks you.

So liston cleaned out the best of his division, and the ones he missed out on fighting he made sure he challenged to fight him. no other heavyweight champion can lay claim to this.

Even in his two title defenses....he took on # 1 ranked floyd patterson rematch, and # 1 ranked cassius clay.

C. Domination in Prime 1958-62

another big factor is domination. Many heayweight champions struggled with there best opposition they faced like larry holmes, joe louis, rocky marciano, lennox lewis, jack dempsey.

NO HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION WAS MORE DOMINATING IN HIS PRIME THAN SONNY LISTON!! NO ONE!! Liston did not struggle at all in his prime. He wiped out the entire heavyweight division with hardly any struggle. no other heavyweight champ can acclaim this!

lets take a look

TKO 1 Wayne Bethea- destroyed top 10 ranked granite chin bethea in 58 seconds. bethea never knocked out before or after the liston fight.

TKO 6 mike dejohn- One sided massacre over dangerous top ranked heavyweight

TKO 2 and TKO 3 Cleveland Williams- Destroyed a top 50 heavyweight of all time TWO TIMES in 2 and 3 rounds respectfully. only time williams ever knocked out in his prime.

KO 3 Zora Folley- Destroyed a top 50 heavyweight of all time in 3 one sided rounds.

TKO 4 Nino Valdez- Destroyed a fading but still dangerous durable contender in 4 one sided rounds.

TKO 1 Roy Harris- Destroyed 22-1 ranked contender in embarrasingly easy fashion.

TKO 7 Wille Besmanoff- Destroyed Fringe Contender VERY DURABLE besmanoff in 7 one sided rounds. besmanoff had fought over 65 fights and had NEVER been stopped prior to fighting liston(except his pro debut).

W 10 2x bert Whitehurst- Twice easily won shutout decisions over one of the most talented journeyman of all time

W 12 Eddie Machen- Won a Wide decision over a top 50 heavyweight of all time who also happened to be a master boxer.

KO 1 2x Floyd Patterson- TWICE destroyed a top 20 heavyweight of all time in 1 round! this is arguebably the two most dominating preformances over a ATG heavyweight heavyweight ever!

as you see, no fighter in sonny listons prime even gave trouble. Liston won all his fights in his prime vs top level competition by blowouts, or one sided decision. NO OTHER HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION CAN LAY CLAIM TO THIS TYPE OF DOMINATION. Liston in his prime did not struggle.

D. Defeat of Opposition in there "primes"

One thing that makes liston look great is almost all of his best opponents he beat were fighters who were in there primes. many ATG heavyweight champions beat fighters who were considered green, or past there prime, but liston was one of the few heavyweight champions of all time who beat virtually all of his world class fighters when they were in there prime.

lets take a look

Floyd patterson 26-27 years old at his peak

eddie machen 26 years old at his peak

cleveland williams 26-27 years old at his peak

zora folley 27 years old at his peak

mike dejohn 27 years old at his peak

johnny summerlin 21 years old entering his prime

roy harris 26 years old at his peak

Nino Valdez 34 years old and past his prime- the only world class fighter listo beat who was over the hill. though valdez was past his prime, at 34 he was still a dangerous ranked contender so the win counts.

bert whitehurst 28-29 years old at his peak

Albert Westphal 30 years old at his peak

Willie Besmanoff 28 years old at his peak

Marty Marshall 22-23 years old at his peak

So as you see, Liston virtually beat all his top competition when they were young(under 30) and in there prime. not many HW champs can claim this. Also if you look at his opponents records, they were all virtually at the peak of there career when they fought liston.

continued..........

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Oct 2006, 17:14

Part II.

continued.............

E. Wide Variety of Styles

Liston beat a Wide Variety of styles, and not only beat them, he DOMINATED THEM!

He showed he could dominate..........

huge- power punching sluggers

6'4 215lb cleveland williams 2x
6'3 215lb nino valdez
6'3 205lb mike dejohn

Slick-Counterpuncher

Eddie Machen
Wayne Bethea
Bert Whitehurst 2x

Boxer-puncher

Zora Folley
Johnny Summerlin 2x
Henry Clark

Puncher-Swarmer

Floyd Patterson

Superheavyweights

6'5 230lb Chuck Wepner- yea i know, pretty pathetic.
6'6 225lb Gerhard Zech- southpaw

F. Contemporary Accounts

During most other heavyweight champions reings, they are critisized more by contemporaries and are not given there due during there time. usually, there legacy goes up over the years.

however with liston it was different. HE WAS SO GOOD, he was already being compared in the same class as joe louis by 1962. thats how good sonny liston was. Some were calling him the greatest heavyweight ever.

G. Accomplishments Past His Prime 1965-69

- This was probably the one area liston could improve as he did not beat good competition when past his prime 1965-70. however part of the reason was because liston was so feared. even a Very Old shell of liston was too big of a threat for the top contenders to risk fighting. Ernie terell who liston used to box exhibitions with, wanted no part of sonny. joe fraziers management avoided fighting liston.

- during that time 65-70 liston beat up on good fringe contenders like amos johnson, amos lincoln, henry clark, chuck wepner, gerhard zech. Liston dominated all of these guys easily.

a 40 year old liston was finally destroyed by top ranked huge puncher leotis martin for the NABF title. however this fight showed something. even a shot 40 year old sonny liston knocked down and outboxed leotis martin for 9 rounds before getting caught. 40 year old sonny was on his way to a win over one of the most dangerous contenders in the division.

H. Liston very Unprotected

Listons management and the fight Mob were so confident in listons abilities that they matched him up with anyone. Liston was the most Unprotected fighter of all time. Usually when a Mob has a certain fighter, they guide him carefully and the fighters management steers him clear of certain fighters. With liston, the mob and sonnys management were convinced liston was so much better than anyone else, so they avoided no one and had liston fight all the top dangerous contenders in the division. They did not guide liston at all, he was that good. they simply threw him in against anyone. other champs like frazier, marciano, johnson, holmes, foreman, lewis, even ali(early on) were guided far more carefully. They even threw liston to the wolves early, and in listons 15th pro fight scheduled liston to fight hall of famer harold johnson.

I. Lack of title defenses

- this is a big misconception. liston had already cleaned out his entire heavyweight division by the time he was finally allowed to fight for the title in 1962. patterson ducked him for years. if everything had gone right, liston would have been champion in late 1958 and would have reigned for 6 years until 1964 with about 11 title defenses. So liston having only 1 title defense is a huge misconception.

So lets go over this again

- liston came out 15-1 despite being fed to the wolves early

- liston was more dominating in his prime 1958-62 than any other heavyweight champion in history

- liston beat great quality opposition......3 top 50 heavyweights of all time and a top 20 heavyweight of all time

- liston beat great depth and wide variety of styles

- Liston perhaps most unprotected heavyweight champion in history

- Sonny beat almost all of his world class opponents in there prime, and struggled with none of them.

Liston like i showed you had VERY VERY few holes in his resume compared to to other champs.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Oct 2006, 17:16

Shows just how good Ali was to destroy him.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Oct 2006, 17:52

Collins2000 wrote:Shows just how good Ali was to destroy him.

well ali didnt destroy him. the first fight was even on the cards vs a past his prime liston, who mysteriousely quit. the 2nd fight liston took a dive so it doesnt count. clay outboxing, and totally outmanuevering a still dangeous liston in 1964 was quite a accomplishment though.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 15 Oct 2006, 18:29

As much as I do like Sonny Liston, as he did have a great deal of atributes that could have made him possibly the greatest puncher in history, his weakness was his mind. He quit against Cassius Clay twice because he couldn't take the pressure. It's my theory that if someone could show up Sonny Liston either physically or mentally that he would break down.

He was under the perception that he was unbeatable, invincible. And when Clay beat him he was never quite the same. Had someone been able to back Liston up, keep pressuring him, show no fear for the man, I do believe Liston would have lost earlier in his career, just the biggest thing was alot of the men he fought were deathly afraid of Liston.

People were running away to not get hit from him, they were going on their bicycle, on the defensive all the time with the man. I believe, if a man with enough power, guts and determination [who could also take a great punch] was able to stand up to Liston and take his best Sunday Punch, theres no doubt in my mind that ROUND ONE [beating Liston mentally] would have started the downfall.

Unfortunately there was no one who could until Cassius Clay made Liston think he was a nut case, and was out-hustling and willing to trade punches with the hardest hitting man in the division.

That's just me though. Liston did have alot going for him, he just bought his own bullshit for too long.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Oct 2006, 19:08

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:Shows just how good Ali was to destroy him.

well ali didnt destroy him. the first fight was even on the cards vs a past his prime liston, who mysteriousely quit. the 2nd fight liston took a dive so it doesnt count. clay outboxing, and totally outmanuevering a still dangeous liston in 1964 was quite a accomplishment though.

If you watch it without the rosy glasses on you will see a broken, beaten ex-champ sitting on his stool in total defeat. That's the first fight by the way, in case you haven't seen it.

In the 2nd fight, after a minute or so Liston knew nothing was gonna be different this time around and so he bailed out. That was his perogative and if Walcott and that old fraud Fleisher had let him alone this one would probably have been put to bed years ago.

Liston was a very good fighter but Ali was exceptional.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 15 Oct 2006, 19:27

Collins......your contribution is a thing of beauty regarding this subject.

Surprised to hear that the cards were even in the first fight....and suspicious as to the accuracy of the assertion. But of course the rounds where Ali had to run away because of the linament in his eye would be a major factor. But that is about the same as having someone hold Ali while Liston just beat on him....hard to score points when you are that compromised.

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 15 Oct 2006, 20:22

What amazes me about Ali/Liston is how fast Ali's reflexes were. He was dodging the crap out of Liston who was not slow at all.

In the second fight Walcott was a terrible referee. Too much confusion, Liston looked like he was ready to fight.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 15 Oct 2006, 20:29

Collins2000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:Shows just how good Ali was to destroy him.

well ali didnt destroy him. the first fight was even on the cards vs a past his prime liston, who mysteriousely quit. the 2nd fight liston took a dive so it doesnt count. clay outboxing, and totally outmanuevering a still dangeous liston in 1964 was quite a accomplishment though.
If you watch it without the rosy glasses on you will see a broken, beaten ex-champ sitting on his stool in total defeat. That's the first fight by the way, in case you haven't seen it.

In the 2nd fight, after a minute or so Liston knew nothing was gonna be different this time around and so he bailed out. That was his perogative and if Walcott and that old fraud Fleisher had let him alone this one would probably have been put to bed years ago.

Liston was a very good fighter but Ali was exceptional.

Nice summary and I couldn't agree more. Liston was a very good fighter, but he seems to be getting a bit too much adulation on this forum by a few posters.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 15 Oct 2006, 20:56

I judge fighters by their title reign, who they beat and what they did in their era, as well as their overall legacy. Liston was a great fighter, but his legacy is that he was over-hyped and he was shown to be a bully. He had alot of skills and attributes, but quite frankly, as with Tyson, it was his persona that made him who he was.

People were scared of him, and when he finally faced someone who wasn't scared of him [Clay] he was shown to not be invincible. The comparisons between Tyson and Liston are extraordinary, two men who everybody was scared of, were hyped up to be indestructable, were powerful and had good skills...but they were creations of the media just as much as they were fighters.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Oct 2006, 22:49

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I judge fighters by their title reign, who they beat and what they did in their era, as well as their overall legacy. Liston was a great fighter, but his legacy is that he was over-hyped and he was shown to be a bully. He had alot of skills and attributes, but quite frankly, as with Tyson, it was his persona that made him who he was.

People were scared of him, and when he finally faced someone who wasn't scared of him [Clay] he was shown to not be invincible. The comparisons between Tyson and Liston are extraordinary, two men who everybody was scared of, were hyped up to be indestructable, were powerful and had good skills...but they were creations of the media just as much as they were fighters.

jesus christ........did you even read my two long posts up above???

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 15 Oct 2006, 23:55

well ali didnt destroy him. the first fight was even on the cards vs a past his prime liston, who mysteriousely quit. the 2nd fight liston took a dive so it doesnt count. clay outboxing, and totally outmanuevering a still dangeous liston in 1964 was quite a accomplishment though.

That?

Myself, the only reason I could ever see how Liston got 'even' on the scorecards is when Clay 'mysteriously' got temproarily blinded and Liston got his shots in. Ironically [sense some sarcasm here] there was a few fights in Liston's record of having opponents somehow or another getting something in their eyes and being blinded. This happened more than once before his fight with Clay.

As far as saying Liston took a dive, maybe so, but let me point out some points. First of all a sports writer told Joe Walcott that Liston was down for 20 seconds and then Walcott called it off.

Liston could have been down for a minute for all I care, but a ten count DOES NOT START until the referee starts counting. And mind you, Liston did get up and he continued to fight with Ali and THEN Walcott jumps in and waves it off.

It wasn't that sportswriters business to tell Walcott what to do. If that was always the case, then Mike Tyson should have beat Douglas and Dempsey should have been the first man to regain the title. BUT it isnt, a count does not start until the referee starts.

Then throw in Liston being somewhat terrified of Clay because he thought he was insane, then the Black Muslims and the rumors of assasination...did Liston really throw the fight because of Ali? Or was it the fear of getting fragged by an assasin?

Also, was it a phantom punch that put Liston down? I don't think so, looking at the film over and over, as fast as Ali was its hard to tell, but the 'anchor punch' is alot more harder a blow than anyone thinks. Mind you, Ali was clocked by SPORTS ILLUSTARED to have a punch go at a speed of 100th's of a second.

I don't think Liston took a dive, it was just a matter of fear, chaos and Walcott taking a sports writers word for it. I think a large part of Liston staying down wasn't because the punch was that bad, I do think it knocked him down legit, was because Ali WOULD NOT go into a neutral corner, he was standing over Liston.

There's too many questions than answers in that fight, but you can't just say it was a dive, there was just too many damn factors.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 16 Oct 2006, 02:15

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:
Liston could have been down for a minute for all I care, but a ten count DOES NOT START until the referee starts counting. And mind you, Liston did get up and he continued to fight with Ali and THEN Walcott jumps in and waves it off.

BUT it isnt, a count does not start until the referee starts.

After a knockdown and getting the fighter to a nuetral corner, doesn't the ref look over to the time keeper for the official count and start from that point? Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that was how it has been done for some time now.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Oct 2006, 02:22

A time keepers job is to make sure the round is 3 minutes long and nothing more or less...watch a few of the programs on Liston and/or Muhammad Ali and they'll mention that the sportswriter had no business telling Joe Walcott that Liston was on the canvas for 20 seconds.

A referee's count is when the count officially starts. Like I said, if it was any other case then Buster Douglas would have lost to Tyson [was down for 13 seconds] and Gene Tunney would have lost in the rematch to Demspey [was down for 14 seconds].

I do know that after Douglas did beat Tyson, Don King and a few members of the boxing organizations tried to screw Douglas out of the win with the 'he was down for 13 seconds' argument. But they were threatened to be sued and/or over-ruled because the official count does not start until the referee counts.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 16 Oct 2006, 04:50

If the return with Ali had taken place on the date that was originally scheduled (Ali pulled out with a hernia) I think Liston would have entered the ring in the best possible shape - mentally and physically. He had trained really hard for that fight, and when it was called off it really hit him hard. I think he remarked that he didn't believe he could get himself back to that peak of fitness again.

To those who dismiss Liston as a "bully" who backed off when a fighter stood up to him, have you watched the Cleveland Williams fights? Liston takes several huge shots and fights back to overwhelm Williams. And bullies tend to pick on the little guys - Liston (as Brockton says) fought anyone who was available. Liston was intimidating, that's different from being a bully.

An earlier poster reckoned Liston received too much adulation on this forum - but he gets hardly any from the mainstream sports press. Ask most people to name their top heavys of all time and he'll rarely get a mention - depite the fact that he was a truly great fighter.

J

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 16 Oct 2006, 05:20

Also, a bully doesnt go the distance with a broken jaw as Sonny Liston did against Marty Marshall

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 16 Oct 2006, 06:56

john2345 wrote:An earlier poster reckoned Liston received too much adulation on this forum - but he gets hardly any from the mainstream sports press. Ask most people to name their top heavys of all time and he'll rarely get a mention - depite the fact that he was a truly great fighter.

The "mainstream" sports press doesn't even give the sport of boxing any attention let alone Sonny Liston.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 16 Oct 2006, 07:16

The Great John L wrote:The "mainstream" sports press doesn't even give the sport of boxing any attention let alone Sonny Liston.

Agreed....but even the Boxing press - such as it is these days - tends to ignore him. He's always "the guy who lost to Ali" rather than the guy who should have had a title shot years before he eventually got it. He cleaned up the division before he became champion - if each of those fights had counted as a title defence (Follery, Machen, Valdes, Williams *2, DeJohn, etc) he'd be regarded as a great champion who defended the title against all comers and eventually lost it to another great....but that said, I guess"IF" is a word that we can all apply to ourselves and others!

J

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 16 Oct 2006, 13:14

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:Shows just how good Ali was to destroy him.

well ali didnt destroy him. the first fight was even on the cards vs a past his prime liston, who mysteriousely quit. the 2nd fight liston took a dive so it doesnt count. clay outboxing, and totally outmanuevering a still dangeous liston in 1964 was quite a accomplishment though.

The fight was even on the score cards but the judges were way off base. Clay should have been up 5 rounds to 1, with the Liston winning round 5 becasue Clay was blinded. Brockton, you yourself said a while ago that Clay gave Liston a boxing lesson.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 16 Oct 2006, 13:23

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:
well ali didnt destroy him. the first fight was even on the cards vs a past his prime liston, who mysteriousely quit. the 2nd fight liston took a dive so it doesnt count. clay outboxing, and totally outmanuevering a still dangeous liston in 1964 was quite a accomplishment though.
That?

Myself, the only reason I could ever see how Liston got 'even' on the scorecards is when Clay 'mysteriously' got temproarily blinded and Liston got his shots in. Ironically [sense some sarcasm here] there was a few fights in Liston's record of having opponents somehow or another getting something in their eyes and being blinded. This happened more than once before his fight with Clay.

As far as saying Liston took a dive, maybe so, but let me point out some points. First of all a sports writer told Joe Walcott that Liston was down for 20 seconds and then Walcott called it off.

Liston could have been down for a minute for all I care, but a ten count DOES NOT START until the referee starts counting. And mind you, Liston did get up and he continued to fight with Ali and THEN Walcott jumps in and waves it off.

It wasn't that sportswriters business to tell Walcott what to do. If that was always the case, then Mike Tyson should have beat Douglas and Dempsey should have been the first man to regain the title. BUT it isnt, a count does not start until the referee starts.

Then throw in Liston being somewhat terrified of Clay because he thought he was insane, then the Black Muslims and the rumors of assasination...did Liston really throw the fight because of Ali? Or was it the fear of getting fragged by an assasin?

Also, was it a phantom punch that put Liston down? I don't think so, looking at the film over and over, as fast as Ali was its hard to tell, but the 'anchor punch' is alot more harder a blow than anyone thinks. Mind you, Ali was clocked by SPORTS ILLUSTARED to have a punch go at a speed of 100th's of a second.

I don't think Liston took a dive, it was just a matter of fear, chaos and Walcott taking a sports writers word for it. I think a large part of Liston staying down wasn't because the punch was that bad, I do think it knocked him down legit, was because Ali WOULD NOT go into a neutral corner, he was standing over Liston.

There's too many questions than answers in that fight, but you can't just say it was a dive, there was just too many damn factors.

Just wanted to mention something about the 10-count in the 2nd Ali-Liston fight. Actually, the referee does not start the count. The knockdown time keeper (not to be confused with the regular timekeeper) starts the count as the referee makes sure the fighter who scored the knockdown goes to a neutral corner. The referee then picks up the count from the kncokdownkeeper. For example if the kncokdown timekeeper was at 3, the referee starts the count at 4. The referee doesn't start at 1.

In the 2nd Ali-Liston fight, the referee (Walcott) should have consulted the knockdown timekeeper but he didn't. Interestingly enough, had Walcott done so, the knockdown timekeeper would have told him that he had already reached 10.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 16 Oct 2006, 13:28

Ambling Alp wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:Shows just how good Ali was to destroy him.

well ali didnt destroy him. the first fight was even on the cards vs a past his prime liston, who mysteriousely quit. the 2nd fight liston took a dive so it doesnt count. clay outboxing, and totally outmanuevering a still dangeous liston in 1964 was quite a accomplishment though.
The fight was even on the score cards but the judges were way off base. Clay should have been up 5 rounds to 1, with the Liston winning round 5 becasue Clay was blinded. Brockton, you yourself said a while ago that Clay gave Liston a boxing lesson.

That's not true. Liston won rounds 2, 4 and 5. He came back strong enough in the 3rd you could even score that an even round.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 16 Oct 2006, 13:59

Wow. Couldn't disagree with you more. Don't see how you could score those rounds for Liston.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Oct 2006, 14:41

I still disagree with the time keep thing. Cus if that was the case Buster Douglas would have lost to Tyson because he was down for 13 seconds. And Gene Tunney was down for 14 seconds, but each of those referees restarted the count at ONE.

I know I'm repeating the same thing all over again, but it was a sportswriter [either Red Smith or Nat Fleischer] who told Walcott that Liston was down for 20 seconds, not a time keeper of any sort.

And, Liston did get up once Ali was put into a neutral corner, so the majority of the 'count' was during the process of trying to get Ali back to his corner. Then they started fighting again, then Walcott hears the sportswriter yell at him, he walks away, Liston and Ali are still fighting, Walcott is told Liston was down for 20 seconds, he rushes over and calls the fight off.

If the rematch could be summed up in one word it would be: SHAMBLES.

As far as the first fight is concerned, I heard that Liston never took Clay seriously in training, and trained as if the fight was a four-rounder, because Liston believed he could have knocked Clay out in that amount of time.

The rematch, Liston trained harder if not the hardest of his career, because for the first time in his life, people were rooting Liston on because everybody hated Clay [sounds odd now because Ali is so beloved now, but SPORTS ILLUSTRATED once called him 'the most hated figure in sports'] and he was prepared, at least physically this time around.

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 16 Oct 2006, 15:39

longevity is always a good way to judge the champs

the fact that The Ring mag had him still in the top ten in the 70's says it all

Liston a tru gr8

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Oct 2006, 15:58

Longetivity is a great thing...but then again, Foreman and Holmes had greater longetivity than Liston did...so in that area they rank higher than Sonny does.