The Interval of the Misterious Clay-Cooper I

Jeffsboxing · Post by **Jeffsboxing** » 02 Jul 2003, 04:45

WHich one is the most correct one regarding the interval period between round 4 and 5, after Cooper knocked down Clay in round 4.

Some says it's only 65 seconds, which means only 5 seconds later than the formal regulation.

Some other say 3-4 minutes, 5 minutes and so on.

We don't discuss who split the gloves, but the interval length.

JEFF

:x

Bladder · Post by **Bladder** » 02 Jul 2003, 18:15

The interval length was no more than 6 seconds according to the original radio broadcast.

The "Boxing News" report of the fight, editorials and readers letters in the weeks that followed make absolutely no mention of any extended interval. There are comments about the torn glove but it seems that nobody at the time noticed an excessively long interval.

IMHO, the extended interval story is a crock of shite ......... though it could be a media conspiracy which Boxing News was in on.

saad · Post by **saad** » 02 Jul 2003, 19:01

I don't have the answer to this, but I find it nearly impossible to believe that they switched his glove in 65 seconds. Consider how long it takes fighters now to get the tape put back on their gloves when the action is stopped. Sometimes that alone takes 30 seconds. Assuming the glove was in the corner and ready to go, they would have to remove the old glove, put a new one on and lace it up in a very short time. I wouldn't be surprised if it took 2 or 3 minutes. Unless they had velcro back then. Then again, I'm not a trainer or a fighter or anything.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 02 Jul 2003, 20:04

I thought I heard Henry Cooper say in an interview some time ago that they had to go all the way back to the dressing room to get the new set of gloves. And don't forget the fact that they were at Wembley stadium. That means about half the length of a soccer field.

Incidentally, those ripped gloves were auctioned a couple of years ago and sold for something like 40.000 pounds.

Jeffsboxing · Post by **Jeffsboxing** » 02 Jul 2003, 22:49

So who's the first to claim about the 5, 10, or 15 minutes of interval crap?

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 03 Jul 2003, 00:20

To be honest I think the interval length grows every time it's mentioned. I have the fight on tape but it doesn't include the round intervals yet when the next round starts the commentators never once mention any great delay. I did read in a British newspaper recently that the interval was timed at 65 seconds. Unsurprisengly Henry Cooper (or Sir Henry Cooper as we Brits call him) says it was several minutes but I guess he would say that.

What it does show is that if you hit someone right they will go down no matter how much bigger they may be. Henry Cooper weighed in at 185lbs for the fight but after the bout said he had weights in his pocket and the weigh-in because he was too light. He said he really weighed under 13 stone. Cooper was a good fighter but bled too easily. He did have a great left hook ( 'enrys 'ammer ) as it was known and I think he would have hurt most boxers with it if he landed it flush.

If he had dropped Clay earlier in the round there is no doubt in my mind that he would have stopped him. Clay was out and something which is clearly shown on my copy of the fight are his cornermen using smelling salts on him, which I believe are illegal.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 03 Jul 2003, 01:06

the correct answer is 65 seconds.

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 03 Jul 2003, 04:01

1 stone = 14 lbs.

So under 13 stone would mean under 152 lbs.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 03 Jul 2003, 07:41

13x14 is 182 you dolt.

Bladder · Post by **Bladder** » 03 Jul 2003, 14:17

terap wrote:"according to the original radio broadcast. "

PROVE IT.

"The rest was several minutes"

"The retarded British officials went to look for new gloves---didn't find any."

PROVE IT.

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 03 Jul 2003, 14:55

13x14 is 182 you dolt.

lol whoops
Atleast I tried to help though.

saad · Post by **saad** » 14 Jul 2003, 20:05

Bladder wrote:
terap wrote:"according to the original radio broadcast. "

PROVE IT.
"The rest was several minutes"

"The retarded British officials went to look for new gloves---didn't find any."

PROVE IT.

I just flipped through (I haven't bought it yet) the new book "Facing Ali" and Henry Cooper talks about the fight. According to the book, the ref spent about 30 seconds inspecting the glove after Dundee pointed out the tear. They then tried to find out if there was a pair of gloves in reserve. They determined that there was, but the lockerrooms were about 200 yards from the ring, so they decided to get them after the next round. The whole thing lasted 2 1/2 minutes or so. And then Cooper didn't come out after the next round, so the extra gloves weren't needed.

There's the proof, its in the book "Facing Ali"

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 14 Jul 2003, 23:42

I don't know that Henry Cooper's version is necessarily "proof". But...if I were Cooper and describing the incident I'd say the time between rounds was well over and hour and in that time my I got a note saying my wife missed her period and I had a stroke which made me not at my best when the next round finally started...so at least he gives a more credible version.

there are more objective reports that say the interval was 65 seconds. the boxing magazines that covered the fight at the time,as best I can recall, said there were just a few seconds added to the minute's rest...but that was a long time ago. my own take on it is that the torn glove story came along later and took on a life of its own.

Maybe somebody can find contemporary accounts of the fight whichI'd think would be accurate.

Again...I have no proof that it was 65 seconds (though I think it was)...and without any rancor meant toward saad, I reiterate that a cooper version isn't what I'd call proof.

saad · Post by **saad** » 15 Jul 2003, 00:10

Jaclem wrote:I don't know that Henry Cooper's version is necessarily "proof". But...if I were Cooper and describing the incident I'd say the time between rounds was well over and hour and in that time my I got a note saying my wife missed her period and I had a stroke which made me not at my best when the next round finally started...so at least he gives a more credible version.

there are more objective reports that say the interval was 65 seconds. the boxing magazines that covered the fight at the time,as best I can recall, said there were just a few seconds added to the minute's rest...but that was a long time ago. my own take on it is that the torn glove story came along later and took on a life of its own.

Maybe somebody can find contemporary accounts of the fight whichI'd think would be accurate.

Again...I have no proof that it was 65 seconds (though I think it was)...and without any rancor meant toward saad, I reiterate that a cooper version isn't what I'd call proof.

I undertand your position Jaclem, but for me this definitely qualifies as better proof than anything else in this thread. Why? Because unlike any of the posters in this thread, Henry Cooper was at the fight. And he said the glove was never changed. The book in question is an Ali book, Cooper doesn't seem in any way bitter about the result. In fact he says that several people had tried to say there was no small tear in the gloves in the first place, that Dundee created the entire rip. But Dundee admitted to Cooper over dinner a few years later that the rip was there but small, and he did indeed help it along.

pvdh62 · Post by **pvdh62** » 15 Jul 2003, 17:05

Terap, you must be sick in your head. The picture of Ali being knocked down by Frazier was shown all over the world many times, right after the fight in the morningpapers as well as later in books, documentaries and on video free to buy for everyone. Frazier didn't expose Ali for being vulnarable to the left hook, [at the time] top European heavy Henry Cooper already did that to the young Cassius Clay. No secrets there, no coveringup, so no reason for strange conspiracytheories. Are you an Oliver Stone impersonater? No, at least he had a point. Maybe it was a long break, and Angelo Dundee took advantige of the situation, good for him, bad for the others. Fair? No, that may not be fair but life is life and boxing is boxing and nothing is fair but that doesn't mean that there is a coverup from the media or a neglection of what happened by the boxingfans. We all saw what happened, every second is free for everybody to see and form an opinion.

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 15 Jul 2003, 20:23

What about that Ali movie that came out a year ago? They show him getting spanked by Fraizer as well as his failed marriages (all his fault)

I'd say that atleast counts for something.

pvdh62 · Post by **pvdh62** » 15 Jul 2003, 21:07

terap wrote:My dear half-witted pdv,

You do not know what the BIG media in the US (the major TV networks, the big newspapers --NY Times, Washington Post etc.) present to the large general public.

They present only that Ali beat Frazier.

They NEVER mention the first fight.

They NEVER, ever show a picture of Ali knocked flat on his back by Frazier.

When sportwriter Phil Berger worked with Frazier on his autobiography, Berger was warned by some US mediz bigwigs that he would never work again. He wrote an article about that.

BEFORE the book came out, the largest circulation US paper, USA Today, came out with a FRONT PAGE article attacking the book. This is unheard of---to attack a book before it had even been released--and on the front page of USA Today, which does not usually deal with such topics on its FRONT page.

Apparently some in the media were highly disturbed by Frazier's merely telling the facts about his career and his situations involving Ali.

You don't know the differencee between the big media and what it presents (and allows to be presented) to the large general public and what someone with a specific interest in boxing can find with some initiative.

From where you are located you are not competent to know what goes on in the big US media.

Terap, my good friend, please don't patronise me. I am old enough to know how the world turns. I have been a businessman in New York [Wall Street] for a couple of years so I know about capitalism. Yes, the media favoured Ali in the seventies, he was a superstar and stories about superstars sell newspapers. So he got a little help every now-and -than by the media. Nothing new here. But you seem to forget that the major powers of the allmighty US of A didn't favour Ali at all during the 60's. I am sure I won't have to teach you a lesson about American politics in the sixties. In fact, it's a small miracle the guy survived that period at all, and I am not just talking about boxing. Funny that you never mention that in your conspiricy theories. BTW, in this half witted part of the world we DID see Ali go down and lose to Frazier. Live on TV. [yes, I am old enough]. We also saw him look bad vs. other fighters. We have VCR's. So we can form our own opinion, thank you.

saad · Post by **saad** » 17 Jul 2003, 01:51

Terap is exactly right. I'm 31 years old, so I was a real young kid when Ali was still fighting, and I have no memories of his fights. However, from about the age of 10 on, I was led to believe by EVERY person and EVERY story I ever read that only was not only the best heavyweight ever, but that he dominated every fight, and no one could touch him when he was in his prime. A few years ago I bought the 3 fight Ali set on VHS - Liston I, Foreman, and Frazier III. I bought into all the hype and stories about the man. When I started to collect tapes a couple years ago I wanted to see this guy dominated everyone, except what I found is that he was one of the dullest heavyweights I've ever seen in many of his fights. Not to mention a darling of the judges who won some fights on his reputation alone.

Terap may seem like he goes overboard, but he is right on the money about the Ali salesmen. Everyone in my generation believes he was untouchable and they've never seen any evidence to the contrary. Most of my friends who only follow mainstream boxing don't even know that Frazier beat Ali once.

Jeffsboxing · Post by **Jeffsboxing** » 18 Jul 2003, 01:18

I don't know why terap still thinks the bleeding on clay's nose on the first by Sir Cooper, and he was sinked by Norton and Frazier were omitted

The facts are Ali won over Cooper twice, making a revenge to Norton and winning 2-1 over Frazier.

Lennox is not a good salesman as Ali (I borrow terap's word 'salesman') - but none said anything about his humiliating tko losses to crying mccall and rahman...

"the winner gets it all" is the answer for terap...

FreeIkemefula · Post by **FreeIkemefula** » 22 Jul 2003, 02:52

terap wrote:Henry Cooper (all 185 pounds of him) caught the "GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME" in a corner and hit him on the button with his left hook.

Remember---IN HIS VERY NEXT FIGHT Ali had a "perfect" defense against Sonny Liston.

Ali with his "great" chin, went down like a shot from the left hook of 185 pound Henry Cooper, ending up sitting on the bottom rope.

His eyes were turned backwards inside his head, with only the whites showing.

He got up as the bell rang and tottered to his corner---

where they frantically gave him smelling salts and slapped his legs.

After a period of time, Ali suddenly STOOD UP, showing that he had been completely out up to that point.

They quickly pushed him back down on his stool.

The rest was several minutes.

The retarded British officials went to look for new gloves---didn't find any.

The new round started after our hero got an extended rest between rounds just after getting knocked silly by Henry Cooper---one of the GREATEST fighters of all time----much better than Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey----

The retarded cornermen of Henry Cooper never yelled that their fighter had won since Ali was not able to answer the bell after the legitimate one minute rest between rounds.

What would Angelo Dundee have done in the same situation?

In HIS VERY NEXT FIGHT, against Liston, Ali suddenly turned miraculously into the "greatest fighter of all time." ?

Give me a break.

No one changes that much from one fight to the next.

The Cooper fight is of course harmful to the media promotion of Ali promoted as the "greatest of all time."

So how is it handled?

1----When do you see a photo of Ali sitting on the bottom rope with his eyes turned backwards inside his head after being clobbered by 185 pound Henry Cooper?

ANSWER: Never

2----When do you see a film clip of Ali getting clobbered by 185 pound Henry Cooper, going down like a shot, ending up sitting on the bottom rope with his eyes turned backwards inside his head and then tottering to his corner on legs as steady as those of a new-born foal?

ANSWER: Never

3----Any claim that the rest was shorter than several minutes only appeared RECENTLY.
The Ali pr campaign is free to falsify whatever they need to in order to sell their product.

Does the Ali media pr campaign have a problem with Ali getting clobbered by 185 pound Henry Cooper JUST BEFORE Ali "beat" Liston in a highly suspicious "fight" ?

That's an easy one to handle-----

Just say IT NEVER HAPPENED.
That's the handling by the "campaign.".

You cannot show me ANY statement that the interval between rounds was less than several minutes until ones made RECENTLY.

This fits with the other handlings by the Ali pr campaign when it comes to handling the many "problems" with their ridiculous and unrelenting assertion that their product is the "greatest of all time."

Including---

NEVER mentioning, showing a still photo of, or a film clip of
Joe Frazier knocking Ali flat on his back in the 15th round of their first fight.

NEVER mentioning that fight, since it shows clearly that their product was not the "greatest of all time."

And working without letup to focus all attention away from that and to their third fight.

Falsely and ignorantly eliminating the perfectly visible career of Sonny Liston in his fights OTHER THAN with Ali---

which obviously show Liston's performances in the two Ali "fights" were ridiculous and obvious fakes as compared to anything he did in his other fights.

Handling the problem of Ken Norton by pushing Norton as one of the greatest of all time.
When in reality Norton was a glass chinned fighter with a tiny midsection (wrong for boxing) which left him at the mercy of body shots.
But since Ali hardly threw a body shot in his entire career,
and since Ali was not a good puncher by heavyweight standards,
Norton fought Ali THREE times and Ali still hasn't beaten Norton.

Ali was in there with Norton for a total of THIRTY-NINE rounds and never hurt Norton.
WHERE was the magic punch that "knocked out" the iron chinned Sonny Liston in the first round?????????????

Ali lost his title to a novice who had only had SEVEN pro fights (Leon Spinks)

and the Ali sales campaign actually has the gall to twist that into being a further "proof" that their product was the "greatest of all time" since he managed to regain the "title" from the novice who had now had EIGHT pro fights.

Of course they studiously avoid mention of the fact that as soon as novice Spinks finished his two 15-round fights with Ali

SPINKS WAS UNABLE GET THROUGH A SINGLE ROUND against Gerrie Coetzee in his VERY NEXT FIGHT.

Nobody ever called Coetzee the greatest fighter of all time.
But he knocked out Spinks in the first round immediately after Ali had just struggled with Spinks for THIRTY rounds.

The inconsistencies in Ali career are so obvious that the Ali salesmen have to work constantly to handle them.

Show me a "claim" dated in time earlier than just recently that the rest Ali got between rounds in his Cooper debacle was anything less than several minutes.

You can't.

Get the newspapers of the day after the fight.

Not the statements of salesmen selling their product to what they smirkingly consider their retarded audience decades afterward.

WHO are the sources of the claim that the illegal rest Ali got between round was only seconds?

Former employees of Ali like Angelo Dundee and Ferdie Pacheco?

Modern media shills who have a consistent record of shilling for their product Ali?

Sir, I am a veteran poster on another board and I must say this is without a doubt the greatest post I have ever read. I hope this board has people half as intelligent as you appear to be. Ali, although a great fighter, is the most blatantly overrated fighter in history. I say overrated because most call him the "greatest", others a "god". He was a very good fighter, but I should hope the "greatest of all time" wouldn't lose to Doug Jones while he was still in his prime. Oh, I am sorry. It wasn't his prime yet

Oh, he also officially "won" that fight.

You are 100% right. I have searched far and wide for someone this well informed. Thank You.

gensu3k1 · Post by **gensu3k1** » 22 Jul 2003, 12:45

It really bothers me that there can be so many misconceptions about this fight even though IT IS ON FILM!

Ali received no more than 70 seconds between rounds. In fact, much of the delay in the interval between rounds was probably caused by the fact that Ali was knocked down almost simultaneously with the bell, delaying the start of the between rounds clock as the timekeeper counted the knockdown seconds.

FACT: Ali was on the canvas for no more than 3 seconds. He got up and calmly walked to his corner. He DID NOT look wobbly or hurt. This is absolutely clear if you have seen the film.

FACT: Ali began the next round by DOMINATING Cooper. He was completely clearheaded and did not seem to be hanging on in any way.

There is no real reason to think that Ali was on the verge of being knocked out and that ten extra seconds "saved" him. He got knocked down. It happens. But to believe that Henry Cooper was about to KO Ali when Shavers, Frazier and Foreman couldn't is lunacy.[/b]

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 22 Jul 2003, 13:05

terap wrote:Henry Cooper (all 185 pounds of him) caught the "GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME" in a corner and hit him on the button with his left hook.

Remember---IN HIS VERY NEXT FIGHT Ali had a "perfect" defense against Sonny Liston.

Ali with his "great" chin, went down like a shot from the left hook of 185 pound Henry Cooper, ending up sitting on the bottom rope.

His eyes were turned backwards inside his head, with only the whites showing.

He got up as the bell rang and tottered to his corner---

where they frantically gave him smelling salts and slapped his legs.

After a period of time, Ali suddenly STOOD UP, showing that he had been completely out up to that point.

They quickly pushed him back down on his stool.

Gensu, I might not always agree with some of Terap's claims, but I have seen that film several times and that is an accurate description of what happened that night at Wembley Stadium. He really did LOOK wobbly and hurt.

And although there will always be controversy around the actual interval time, I dont think its too far fetched to say that at least the bell did save him that time. There is no lunacy in that.
Watch the film closely again, look at Angelo Dundee's reaction, look at Clay as he suddenly stands up like Terap said.

gensu3k1 · Post by **gensu3k1** » 23 Jul 2003, 00:35

Broncano wrote:
terap wrote:Henry Cooper (all 185 pounds of him) caught the "GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME" in a corner and hit him on the button with his left hook.

Remember---IN HIS VERY NEXT FIGHT Ali had a "perfect" defense against Sonny Liston.

Ali with his "great" chin, went down like a shot from the left hook of 185 pound Henry Cooper, ending up sitting on the bottom rope.

His eyes were turned backwards inside his head, with only the whites showing.

He got up as the bell rang and tottered to his corner---

where they frantically gave him smelling salts and slapped his legs.

After a period of time, Ali suddenly STOOD UP, showing that he had been completely out up to that point.

They quickly pushed him back down on his stool.
Gensu, I might not always agree with some of Terap's claims, but I have seen that film several times and that is an accurate description of what happened that night at Wembley Stadium. He really did LOOK wobbly and hurt.

And although there will always be controversy around the actual interval time, I dont think its too far fetched to say that at least the bell did save him that time. There is no lunacy in that.
Watch the film closely again, look at Angelo Dundee's reaction, look at Clay as he suddenly stands up like Terap said.

Ali absolutely did not wobble or "totter" back to his corner. He calmly walked back. He didn't not wobble. I'm positive about this.

Ali tried to stand up, in my opinion, because that was his custom between rounds, especially early in his career. Dundee was freaked out and wanted Ali to stay on his stool. But I saw nothing that indicated that Ali was seriously hurt. The commentator and the crowd certainly thought so, but Ali walked back to his corner calmly and seemed coherent in his corner for the entire interim.

If he was seriously hurt, why did it only take him three seconds to gather himself and calmly walk back to his corner?

If Shavers couldn't finish Ali after hurting him, how exactly was Cooper going to do it?

Jeffsboxing · Post by **Jeffsboxing** » 23 Jul 2003, 01:59

I think in one side, terap was correct. Ali was saved by the bell - that's all. And that was in accordance with the rules.

IF --- IF ONLY Sir Henry had threwn the hammer 1 or 2 minutes earlier, Clay would have been history before he won the world title, maybe. IMO Ali was almost finished while walking to his corner. He was pale, and maybe he become a robot during the 60 seconds.

Maybe terap was right when Ali stood up he was about to give up - but you were also correct to say Ali yelled "I'm OK!" when he stood up. No one knows the truth. Ali and Dundee might know the exact truth, but they could tell lies. God also knows the truth, but He doesn;t want to tell us what happened that night... just keep it as mistery.

In my opinion, to be great someone doesn't need to be an invicible god with undefeated records.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 23 Jul 2003, 02:37

just studied the tape again...and the interval may have been even longer than anyone says here. if you look closely you'll see that at the knockdown cooper is clean shaven, but when he comes out for the next round, he has at least a five o'clock shadow..maybe even a stubble.