Larry Holmes 1980 vs. Sonny Liston 1959

[RazorKO]

Holmes could jab, but that was about it, he threw it too hard most of the time. Liston's jab was was clubber. Just because a fighter has a hard jab, doesn't make it a great jab. You jab too hard, you mess up your balance, and ability to follow with the right and a decent hook. Jabbing is about setting up your other punches. You can't be trying to knock a guy's block off with every jab.

Ali had a better jab
Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis.
Riddick Bowe even!
Tyson(before he forgot what a jab was)
Ezzard Charles
Even George Foreman jabbed decent when he turned it down a bit. He used it to set everything up, ala Micheal Moore....

Holmes and Liston had far better jabs than Lewis, Lewis pawed with his so called 'jab' and if his jab was so effective how comes he was outjabbed badly by Mercer? The same Mercer who who completly outjabbed by a 42 year old Holmes, or what about an old Holyfied in their rematch?. Lewis also was outjabbed by Bruno and even failing to get friggin Briggs of him, not even mentioning where instead of using his jab to fend off fighters like an old, shot, unprepared, unmotived Tyson he held them instead.

If Lewis had a jab the least he would could of done is to use it against this dreadful version of Tyson but he was incapable of doing so and proceeded to turn this fight into a wedding ceremony, if it could be any fight where Tyson was to loose his mentality - It would of been this fight and one has to admire Tyson for controlling his temper after being hugged to death for 8 rounds. The Tua fight was also as pittiful.

No offense RazorKO, but I can predict exactly when you'll show up on a thread and exactly what you'll say, it getting somewhat tedious.

You've brought up Lewis' "dirty tactics" vs Bruno several times, while at the same time excusing all the stuff Tyson has pulled of the years. Now not only are we supposed to forgive Tyson his past fouls but actually commend him when he doesn't foul.

You compalin about Lewis' fans being disrespectful to Ruddock and then talk about how Ruddock should have been "whiping Lewis' brains off his gloves" which is more disrespectful?

I used to say Lewis used dirty tactics against Bruno but I was wrong, someone pointed out that Lewis had Bruno out with a left hook that put Bruno in dire trouble - which is true so I retract everything Ive said about the fight as Lewis though outjabbed badly beat Bruno fair and square.
Though Lewis definetly used tactics which has been on par with Tyson i.e holding Michael Grants head down into position than uppercuting him.

and then talk about how Ruddock should have been "whiping Lewis' brains off his gloves" which is more disrespectful?

All I mean by that is that if the fight would taken place anywhere apart from London, than Ruddock would of knocked Lewis out very brutally. As much as I dislike Lewis the man, I respect Lewis the fighter but he isnt as great as people point him out. But the fans during this fight was just dreadful, one of the worst Ive ever seen not only in boxing history, but in the history of sport.

[pundit]

Holmes and Liston had far better jabs than Lewis, Lewis pawed with his so called 'jab' and if his jab was so effective how comes he was outjabbed badly by Mercer? The same Mercer who who completly outjabbed by a 42 year old Holmes, or what about an old Holyfied in their rematch?. Lewis also was outjabbed by Bruno and even failing to get friggin Briggs of him, not even mentioning where instead of using his jab to fend off fighters like an old, shot, unprepared, unmotived Tyson he held them instead.

If Lewis had a jab the least he would could of done is to use it against this dreadful version of Tyson but he was incapable of doing so and proceeded to turn this fight into a wedding ceremony, if it could be any fight where Tyson was to loose his mentality - It would of been this fight and one has to admire Tyson for controlling his temper after being hugged to death for 8 rounds. The Tua fight was also as pittiful.

No offense RazorKO, but I can predict exactly when you'll show up on a thread and exactly what you'll say, it getting somewhat tedious.

You've brought up Lewis' "dirty tactics" vs Bruno several times, while at the same time excusing all the stuff Tyson has pulled of the years. Now not only are we supposed to forgive Tyson his past fouls but actually commend him when he doesn't foul.

You compalin about Lewis' fans being disrespectful to Ruddock and then talk about how Ruddock should have been "whiping Lewis' brains off his gloves" which is more disrespectful?

I used to say Lewis used dirty tactics against Bruno but I was wrong, someone pointed out that Lewis had Bruno out with a left hook that put Bruno in dire trouble - which is true so I retract everything Ive said about the fight as Lewis though outjabbed badly beat Bruno fair and square.

The hook put Bruno in trouble, but in the slug-out thereafter Lewis repeatedly held Bruno's had with one hand and hit it with the other. In fact the ref once stepped in because of that, and rightly so.

[Ezzard]

Dirty tactics are part and parcel of the game. If the ref doesn't deduct points or disqualify then there's nothing much else to be said. Many great fighters had big reputations that allowed them to get away with all kinds of tricks.

[JC]

I used to say Lewis used dirty tactics against Bruno but I was wrong, someone pointed out that Lewis had Bruno out with a left hook that put Bruno in dire trouble - which is true so I retract everything Ive said about the fight as Lewis though outjabbed badly beat Bruno fair and square.
Though Lewis definetly used tactics which has been on par with Tyson i.e holding Michael Grants head down into position than uppercuting him..

Fair enough

Like I say, I've no problem with people critising fighters they don't like, provided they are willing to acknowledge the faults of they fighters they do like.

[dr_devious]

All I mean by that is that if the fight would taken place anywhere apart from London, than Ruddock would of knocked Lewis out very brutally. As much as I dislike Lewis the man, I respect Lewis the fighter but he isnt as great as people point him out. But the fans during this fight was just dreadful, one of the worst Ive ever seen not only in boxing history, but in the history of sport.

Razor, your obsession with Lennox Lewis is impairing your logic. How would Razor have beaten Lewis outside of London? This is total bollox even by your standards.
And what did the fans do in the fight? Razor was very respected and popular with boxing fans in the UK, he gained huge kudos from everyone here after his 2 fights with Tyson.

[Syntax Error]

Holmes and Liston had far better jabs than Lewis, Lewis pawed with his so called 'jab' and if his jab was so effective how comes he was outjabbed badly by Mercer? The same Mercer who who completly outjabbed by a 42 year old Holmes, or what about an old Holyfied in their rematch?. Lewis also was outjabbed by Bruno and even failing to get friggin Briggs of him, not even mentioning where instead of using his jab to fend off fighters like an old, shot, unprepared, unmotived Tyson he held them instead.

If Lewis had a jab the least he would could of done is to use it against this dreadful version of Tyson but he was incapable of doing so and proceeded to turn this fight into a wedding ceremony, if it could be any fight where Tyson was to loose his mentality - It would of been this fight and one has to admire Tyson for controlling his temper after being hugged to death for 8 rounds. The Tua fight was also as pittiful.

No offense RazorKO, but I can predict exactly when you'll show up on a thread and exactly what you'll say, it getting somewhat tedious.

You've brought up Lewis' "dirty tactics" vs Bruno several times, while at the same time excusing all the stuff Tyson has pulled of the years. Now not only are we supposed to forgive Tyson his past fouls but actually commend him when he doesn't foul.

You compalin about Lewis' fans being disrespectful to Ruddock and then talk about how Ruddock should have been "whiping Lewis' brains off his gloves" which is more disrespectful?

I used to say Lewis used dirty tactics against Bruno but I was wrong, someone pointed out that Lewis had Bruno out with a left hook that put Bruno in dire trouble - which is true so I retract everything Ive said about the fight as Lewis though outjabbed badly beat Bruno fair and square.
Though Lewis definetly used tactics which has been on par with Tyson i.e holding Michael Grants head down into position than uppercuting him.

and then talk about how Ruddock should have been "whiping Lewis' brains off his gloves" which is more disrespectful?

All I mean by that is that if the fight would taken place anywhere apart from London, than Ruddock would of knocked Lewis out very brutally. As much as I dislike Lewis the man, I respect Lewis the fighter but he isnt as great as people point him out. But the fans during this fight was just dreadful, one of the worst Ive ever seen not only in boxing history, but in the history of sport.

There is no way Ruddock could have beaten Lewis anywhere in the world.

Ruddock just wasn't good enough to beat someone like Lewis.

[RazorKO]

All I mean by that is that if the fight would taken place anywhere apart from London, than Ruddock would of knocked Lewis out very brutally. As much as I dislike Lewis the man, I respect Lewis the fighter but he isnt as great as people point him out. But the fans during this fight was just dreadful, one of the worst Ive ever seen not only in boxing history, but in the history of sport.

Razor, your obsession with Lennox Lewis is impairing your logic. How would Razor have beaten Lewis outside of London? This is total bollox even by your standards.
And what did the fans do in the fight? Razor was very respected and popular with boxing fans in the UK, he gained huge kudos from everyone here after his 2 fights with Tyson.

Devious, Ruddock was interviewed by Merchant after the fight and he said he was unable to fight in this climate, which I 100% believe as only the most confident fighters i.e Ali would of been able to maintain his composure whilst being booed very cruely.
I wish your second statement was correct but unfortunetly that wasnt the case, Ruddock was not respected by the crowd and they treated Ruddock like he had killed a child, I have never seen such hate by fans in any sporting event like I saw during this fight.

But compare how the English fans treated Ruddock to the the way the Ameircan fans welcomed him during the Morrison bout, the American fans are what you call true boxing fans.

[pundit]

There is no way Ruddock could have beaten Lewis anywhere in the world.

Ruddock just wasn't good enough to beat someone like Lewis.

In 1992 that was not clear.

[Aldo Pravisani]

I believe the 1959 Liston would have kayod most fighters. Certainly Holmes, maybe even Ali. We'll never know. More the pity!

[Syntax Error]

There is no way Ruddock could have beaten Lewis anywhere in the world.

Ruddock just wasn't good enough to beat someone like Lewis.

In 1992 that was not clear.

Yes it was.

Did you not see his poor one dimensional performances against the equally one dimensional Tyson in 1991?

Any decent heavyweight that used used a bit of lateral movement would have beaten Tyson in 1991, yet Ruddock chose to meet him head on!

That suggested to me that he did not have the tactics to beat someone like Lewis, who I actuallly tipped to beat Ruddock on points; even though I was ridiculed by many for saying it at the time.

[The Great John L]

There is no way Ruddock could have beaten Lewis anywhere in the world.

Ruddock just wasn't good enough to beat someone like Lewis.

In 1992 that was not clear.

This guy is priceless...

[dr_devious]

Devious, Ruddock was interviewed by Merchant after the fight and he said he was unable to fight in this climate, which I 100% believe as only the most confident fighters i.e Ali would of been able to maintain his composure whilst being booed very cruely.
I wish your second statement was correct but unfortunetly that wasnt the case, Ruddock was not respected by the crowd and they treated Ruddock like he had killed a child, I have never seen such hate by fans in any sporting event like I saw during this fight.

But compare how the English fans treated Ruddock to the the way the Ameircan fans welcomed him during the Morrison bout, the American fans are what you call true boxing fans.

Was you at the fight Razor? I wasnt so Im not saying you are wrong, but I am surprised about this. The press and the commentators here were very generous towards Ruddock, rightly so. Im also surprised that Lewis even generated this much passion in the UK cos many people have never really been behind him. Hes viewed by some as not being properly British, with his Canadian background. Frank Bruno was always the nations favourite - if Razor had fought Bruno then I'd expect him to face a hostile crowd, but not for Lewis. Even so, it still doesnt excuse a 2 round KO. Razor was finished off by his 2 fights with Tyson, he was never the same again. Razor is one of the best heavyweights never to win the title.

[Syntax Error]

I find it hard to believe to believe that bit of booing (which wasn't that bad in the grand scheme of things) can be used as an excuse for a KO defeat, by a man, who although overrated IMO, showed he had heart & some resilience in his 2 battles with Tyson.

Ruddock didn't lose to Lewis (who was not even really liked by the British) because of some pantomime booing, he lost because he had an average chin, poor technique & below average stamina.

[RazorKO]

Devious, Ruddock was interviewed by Merchant after the fight and he said he was unable to fight in this climate, which I 100% believe as only the most confident fighters i.e Ali would of been able to maintain his composure whilst being booed very cruely.
I wish your second statement was correct but unfortunetly that wasnt the case, Ruddock was not respected by the crowd and they treated Ruddock like he had killed a child, I have never seen such hate by fans in any sporting event like I saw during this fight.

But compare how the English fans treated Ruddock to the the way the Ameircan fans welcomed him during the Morrison bout, the American fans are what you call true boxing fans.

Was you at the fight Razor? I wasnt so Im not saying you are wrong, but I am surprised about this. The press and the commentators here were very generous towards Ruddock, rightly so. Im also surprised that Lewis even generated this much passion in the UK cos many people have never really been behind him. Hes viewed by some as not being properly British, with his Canadian background. Frank Bruno was always the nations favourite - if Razor had fought Bruno then I'd expect him to face a hostile crowd, but not for Lewis. Even so, it still doesnt excuse a 2 round KO. Razor was finished off by his 2 fights with Tyson, he was never the same again. Razor is one of the best heavyweights never to win the title.

I wasnt at the fight, but I do remember watching it on TV and hearing the despicable booing directed right at Ruddock. The Commentators as you say were however generous to him especially Ian Darke who I remember him saying that those Tyson fights may have taken something away from Ruddock.
Maybe its a combination of both - the two brutal fights with Tyson as well as the hostile crowd that lead to his downfall against Lewis...

[RazorKO]

I find it hard to believe to believe that bit of booing (which wasn't that bad in the grand scheme of things) can be used as an excuse for a KO defeat, by a man, who although overrated IMO, showed he had heart & some resilience in his 2 battles with Tyson.

Ruddock didn't lose to Lewis (who was not even really liked by the British) because of some pantomime booing, he lost because he had an average chin, poor technique & below average stamina.

Ruddock might have had poor technique and somewhat average stamina but he certainly didnt have an average chin and this was shown in his two fights with Tyson. No one goes the distance with Tyson without having a good chin, also if you put in the tape of the Morrison fight Tommy hits Ruddock with the best hook any heavyweight could throw and Ruddock not only gets up, but gets up at 1! I compare that Morrison left hook to the Earnie Shavers right that floored Holmes in their rematch.

The Weaver fight also showed Ruddock had a granite chin on the way he took that clean left hook from Weaver, the same left hook that KO'ed Tate that won him the title.

[JC]

I'm so sick of this weak arguement about Ruddock being upset bet the crowd

Here's the fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7NHwKXG9vU

Watch the preliminaries Ruddock does not look bothered at all, quite the opposite in fact, at worst he looked over-psyched.

RazorKO if that's the worst fan reaction you've ever seen you've not seen much sport. If you think it's anything anything other than the punches hurting Ruddock you should get your eyes tested.

[Collins2000]

I'm so sick of this weak arguement about Ruddock being upset bet the crowd

Here's the fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7NHwKXG9vU

Watch the preliminaries Ruddock does not look bothered at all, quite the opposite in fact, at worst he looked over-psyched.

RazorKO if that's the worst fan reaction you've ever seen you've not seen much sport. If you think it's anything anything other than the punches hurting Ruddock you should get your eyes tested.

Thanks, J-C. I just watched it.

I hadn't seen it for a while and thought maybe RazorKO had seen it recently and spotted something we had all missed.

Obviously not.

The reception for Ruddock was actually quite favourable by recent British crowd standards. There were even some cheers for him. He didn't seem at all intimidated; in fact he didn't seem to even notice it. As you would expect with a top fighter.

RazorKO, what's the objective in posting blatant crap? You did the same thing when you were claiming Lewis had to foul Bruno to win. Have you actually seen any of these fights?

[BoxBuzz]

Hold on...I just wathched it very very closely several times....it's clear to me that Razor had im in deep trouble right up until the first bell rang.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

look at how much holmes struggles vs his top opponents he faced. look at how he avoided fighting some of the divisions elite during his 1980s title reign while liston easily dominated the top heavyweights out there during the late 1950s.


i think a peak sonny liston outpoints larry holmes in a close decision, ill elaborate more later

[Collins2000]

look at how much holmes struggles vs his top opponents he faced. look at how he avoided fighting some of the divisions elite during his 1980s title reign while liston easily dominated the top heavyweights out there during the late 1950s.


i think a peak sonny liston outpoints larry holmes in a close decision, ill elaborate more later

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah, 'some of the divisions elite', hahahahahhahahahah - is that "Greg Page" you refer to? Get back over to ESB and the warm embrace of Ted "Fraud" Spoon and his daft stories.

[walshb]

I'm not a fan of Holmes, but against a quitter like Sonny and a bully like Sonny, Holmes wins every time!!!!

[RazorKO]

I'm so sick of this weak arguement about Ruddock being upset bet the crowd

Here's the fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7NHwKXG9vU

Watch the preliminaries Ruddock does not look bothered at all, quite the opposite in fact, at worst he looked over-psyched.

RazorKO if that's the worst fan reaction you've ever seen you've not seen much sport. If you think it's anything anything other than the punches hurting Ruddock you should get your eyes tested.

Ruddock doenst look bothered during the intervals but after the fight he did admit to say he couldnt fight in this climtate, and I am ammusing he is refering to the despicable booing he recieved which could put off any fighter.

This fight was indeed one of the worst receptions Ive ever seen in boxing and I have seen many many fights, many I have on video. The fans in England dont just boo the fighter, they boo the national anthem - the only country Ive noticed to do this in boxing. The McClelan-Ben fight however may of been worse, espeically when fans were reported of shouting 'DIE YOU YANK DIE' to an unconcious McClelan being taken away on a stretcher.

[JC]

Ruddock doenst look bothered during the intervals but after the fight he did admit to say he couldnt fight in this climtate, and I am ammusing he is refering to the despicable booing he recieved which could put off any fighter.

Wlad said his water bottle was poisined vs Brewster and Berbick once wrote off a loss saying he was drugged through the air vent in his room the night before, boxers make excuses when they lose

The McClelan-Ben fight however may of been worse, espeically when fans were reported of shouting 'DIE YOU YANK DIE' to an unconcious McClelan being taken away on a stretcher.

Yes thats a disgrace but it has nothing to do with saying Ruddock could beat Lewis.

Look Razor, I mean no offense here I too hate to see fans booing an anthem I hate it! When I went to see Armour Sting a few years back I was the only Brit in the crowd rooting for the Kiwi because of the booing by the other fans, but it's never an excuse for getting beat.

Jack Johnson used to get letters from the Klu Klux Klan saying they would put snipers in the crowd to shoot him if he started winning, but he fought through it. Part of being a great fighter is overcoming adversity. The recent Molitor vs Hunter fight is an example of how a great fighter's quality will shine through in a hostile atmosophere

We all have our favorites but you seem to have trouble putting yours in their historical context. Tyson lost to Douglas because he fired Rooney, Razor lost to Lewis because of the crowd, Coetzee was not considered an great because of apartide...at the end of the day our heros have weaknesses too and we just have to accept that rather than look for excuses.

[JC]

Jack Johnson used to get letters from the Klu Klux Klan saying they would put snipers in the crowd to shoot him if he started winning, but he fought through it.

I'm surprised they assumed he could read. Unforgivable Blackness said that he was an avid reader, but he quit school when he was 14 or 15.

You couldn't read by the time you were 15

Only kidding...is unforgivable blackness worth reading/watching? I've heard it's pretty biased, which to me is a shame. If you're gonna write a biography of such a complex character papering over the cracks in their character surely cuts out some of the most interesting stuff.

[JC]

Yeah I know what you meant, I was just kidding