Sugar Ray Leonard deserves more credit for his win over dura

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Mar 2007, 12:31

I believe he deserves more credit for "no mas"

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 27 Mar 2007, 12:36

duely noted for the record.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Mar 2007, 12:38

people unfairly make duran out to be some sickly way out of shape on his death bed fighter that night, they make too many exuses for duran

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 27 Mar 2007, 12:56

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:people unfairly make duran out to be some sickly way out of shape on his death bed fighter that night, they make too many exuses for duran

People make too many excuses for all of their favorites. Just read almost any thread in this forum and half of the posts are nothing but excuses, or conspiracy theories to explain how the invinceable [fill in the blank] lost when there was no way it was possible.

From Liston's losses to Ali, SRRs loss to Maxim, Ali's losses to Frazier and Norton, Tyson's loss to Douglas, Wlad's losses to the Boss, Ernie Els and Brewster, etc., nobody ever wants to admit their favorite could actually lose in a legitimate matchup.

Yes, SRL made Duarn quit. It was a great win.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 27 Mar 2007, 13:45

I'll go one further. Sugar Ray Leonard deserves more credit for his one sided points win over Duran in 1989. That fight only became meaningless after Leonard won. I heard plenty of Duran fans including two of my best friends who insisted Duran was going to issue some major payback for what happened in the Superdome. In fact my one buddy kept telling me "You know Leonard isn't as tough as Barkley".

For the Superdome fight, Angelo Dundee worked hard with Leonard, on throwing uppercuts with both hands and pivoting to his left and right.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 27 Mar 2007, 13:57

Damn fight, I lost $10 dollars on that fight. Two weeks lunch money (I was at high school at the time). Didn't for one second think that fight was going to be like that. And yes I do agree that Leonard deserves a lot more credit for defeating Duran the way he did.

And yes I still crying over those $10 dollars.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 27 Mar 2007, 13:58

Seamus wrote:In fact my one buddy kept telling me "You know Leonard isn't as tough as Barkley".

SRL probably wasn't as tough as Barkley, but he certainly could fight better than Barkley.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 27 Mar 2007, 15:31

The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:people unfairly make duran out to be some sickly way out of shape on his death bed fighter that night, they make too many exuses for duran
People make too many excuses for all of their favorites. Just read almost any thread in this forum and half of the posts are nothing but excuses, or conspiracy theories to explain how the invinceable [fill in the blank] lost when there was no way it was possible.

From Liston's losses to Ali, SRRs loss to Maxim, Ali's losses to Frazier and Norton, Tyson's loss to Douglas, Wlad's losses to the Boss, Ernie Els and Brewster, etc., nobody ever wants to admit their favorite could actually lose in a legitimate matchup.

Yes, SRL made Duarn quit. It was a great win.

I agree that way too often people make excuses for a fighter's loss.
People make weak excuses all of the time. (I'm not talking about when one of the fighters is obviously past his prime)
Occassionally there is a legitimate excuse such as a bad decision (of course some people think any decision against their favorite fighter is a bad decision) or a bad referee which causes a fighter to lose when he shouldn't have.
However, the vast majority of excuses are just that excuses.
It always amazes me that someone will bring up personal problems that a fighter has which supposedly cost a fighter one or more fights. A guy could be say 50-6 and people will say that personal problems was the reason that he lost those fights. However, it doesn't seem to occurr to the supporter of that fighter that maybe some of his 50 opponents that he beat had personal problems too.

As for Leonard, yes he deserves a lot of credit for his performance in the 2nd Duran fight.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 27 Mar 2007, 16:48

I know Duran beat Ray when both fighters were possibly at the height of their careers and Duran really fought sensationally considering he was up against one hell of a champion and he was moving up nearly a stone in weight. I do however feel that the fight was extremely close. But who is the better fighter of the two at their peaks at Welter, disregarding their first fight. If they fought ten times at this weight I feel Ray after the first defeat would suss out Duran to beat him more times than Duran beats him. Overall I think a peak Leonard beats a peak Duran at Welter more times

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 27 Mar 2007, 18:26

The fight is listed in the record as a KO for Leonard.

In legitimate times of boxing, Duran would have had his purse held up

and this would be listed in the record book as a loss by disqualification for Duran.

And no promoter would have allowed Duran to fight again.

This was the rawest farce in the whole Ali-Leonard, ABCTV era.

Notice that AS OF THIS FIGHT the news media stopped completely the longtime practice of quoting former champions' comments on a fight.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Mar 2007, 18:39

The Great John L wrote:
Seamus wrote:In fact my one buddy kept telling me "You know Leonard isn't as tough as Barkley".
SRL probably wasn't as tough as Barkley, but he certainly could fight better than Barkley.

leonard was as tough as they come, he was only a pretty boy on the outside. on the inside, he was a a tough warrior

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 27 Mar 2007, 20:36

Ray got the W .
He made zillions.
He told himself he made Duran quit.
Hes happy.
Who knows why Duran spit the bit.
Ray didnt care if the public gave him his props.
He was good enough at patting himself on the back.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 28 Mar 2007, 04:34

I just think these guys polarise opinion. They are both strong characters who are easy to identify with. This is why so many fans throw excuses around.

The main reason Leonard maybe doesn't get as much credit is because he was fighting a guy naturally smaller than him. He was supposed to win.

What is really good about it is the way in which Leonard turned the first defeat around psychologically. He could have crumbled but he found the will and the mental strength to come back again. This is something fighters like Curry and Tyson never managed. It is something that many don't liek to admit, and despite the outside the ring shenanigans of his 2nd career Leonard had the spirit, heart and mental strength to be able to compete with anyone.

It's well documented that Duran was not in the shape he had been for the first fight but that was Duran's choice.

Many Duran fans will tell you that Duran doesn't get the credit for the first fight because Leonard fans claim he only won because Ray chose the wrong strategy... etc... You can't win with this argument.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 28 Mar 2007, 05:34

I thought Leonard did get the kudos for the 2nd Duran fight, it was one of the all-time great wins, and his greatest win along with the 1st Hearns fight imo.
I think the reasons Duran quit were a. he was in bad shape for the fight and was feeling ill, although this wouldnt be enough in itself to make Duran quit and b. he was extremely pis$ed off with Leonards showboating and tactics and decided he wouldnt carry on. This would be the greater factor and the reason why Duran quit. He also literally didnt give a sh1t about anything and always did what he wanted. I dont think there is an ounce of cowardice in Duran.
The 3rd Leonard-Duran fight, Leonard was past his best but Duran was a ghost of his former self

el tigre del sur · Post by **el tigre del sur** » 28 Mar 2007, 13:01

expug wrote:Ray didnt care if the public gave him his props.

Public adulation is everything to SRL.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 28 Mar 2007, 14:49

dr_devious wrote:I thought Leonard did get the kudos for the 2nd Duran fight, it was one of the all-time great wins, and his greatest win along with the 1st Hearns fight imo.
I think the reasons Duran quit were a. he was in bad shape for the fight and was feeling ill, although this wouldnt be enough in itself to make Duran quit and b. he was extremely pis$ed off with Leonards showboating and tactics and decided he wouldnt carry on. This would be the greater factor and the reason why Duran quit. He also literally didnt give a sh1t about anything and always did what he wanted. I dont think there is an ounce of cowardice in Duran.
The 3rd Leonard-Duran fight, Leonard was past his best but Duran was a ghost of his former self

Duran wasn't a coward in the sense of being physically afraid of Leonard.
However, he was like a immature child who quits in the middle of a game that he is losing. I would argue that is worse.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 28 Mar 2007, 17:48

el tigre del sur wrote:
expug wrote:Ray didnt care if the public gave him his props.
Public adulation is everything to SRL.

That and botox

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 30 Mar 2007, 14:10

I give Leonard credit for the win. But I do not think he beat a Duran at his very best. That fight, Duran lost it BEFORE the opening bell.

What is said is that when Duran won the first encounter, people was saying that Leonard did not fight his fight by sticking and moving. I believe that if even if Leonard would have stick and move in Montreal, HE WAS GOING TO LOSE AGAINST DURAN ANYWAY. Duran was too sharp that night and prepared magnificently that nigt. But the nay sayers say that he won because of Leonard's error. Well, Duran did an ERROR in accepting the rematch too quickly. He was not in shape to fight that night in New Orleans. No head movement. No jumping around. Static. Even if Ray would have slug it all night toe to toe like in the first fight, Leonard would have won because his hands were more quicker.

I think he caught a Duran OFF GUARD. But I give Ray the credit. He boxed extraordinary well with the right game plan. I think Duran quit because he knew himself from the get go that he did not have it that night. Duran's strategy was to KO Leonard as soon as possible before the 8th because he knew himself that he was not in shape. It did not happened, the other alternative was to quit.

But what happened for a third fight? Why Ray did not want a third fight with Duran for 1981? He was AFRAID OF DURAN would come back and take his title again.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 30 Mar 2007, 15:12

The reason that there wasn't a 3rd fight immediately was because there wasn't much interest.
Duran's reputation went way down after he quit.
Leonard was afraid of losing to Duran? That makes no sense.

Why on earth would he be afraid. In the rematch he fought a smarter a fight and won easily. There is no reason to think a 3rd fight would have been much different except maybe Duran wouldn't quit again.
If Duran really wanted another fight with Leonard, he could have stayed in the welterweight divison and beat a couple of contenders. Eventually Leonard would have to fight him again. Instead Duran moved up in weight and out of Leonard's division.
If anything it was Duran who didn't want to fight Leonard again.

5 months wasn't enough time for Duran to get ready for the 2nd fight with Leonard? How much time does he need? Didn't Leonard have the same amount of time?

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 30 Mar 2007, 19:32

The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:people unfairly make duran out to be some sickly way out of shape on his death bed fighter that night, they make too many exuses for duran
People make too many excuses for all of their favorites. Just read almost any thread in this forum and half of the posts are nothing but excuses, or conspiracy theories to explain how the invinceable [fill in the blank] lost when there was no way it was possible.

From Liston's losses to Ali, SRRs loss to Maxim, Ali's losses to Frazier and Norton, Tyson's loss to Douglas, Wlad's losses to the Boss, Ernie Els and Brewster, etc., nobody ever wants to admit their favorite could actually lose in a legitimate matchup.

Yes, SRL made Duarn quit. It was a great win.

ROFLMAO

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 30 Mar 2007, 21:29

Ambling Alp wrote: Duran's reputation went way down after he quit.

Really?

BOXING's "reputation" was way down after he quit.

But Duran still collected his purse, didn't he.

Garbage is garbage.

s9s · Post by **s9s** » 30 Mar 2007, 23:12

I'e just finished reading 'Hands Of stone' and the one thing that occours regurly in there is that Duran has all sorts of reasons under the sun why he lost fights up until the tail end of his boxing career.

All the losses agaist Hearns, Hagler, Leonars, Dejesus,Laing, he has excuses as too why he lost, weight, injury, personal , they are all there, while reading the book I took his reasons for losing with a pinch of salt.

theone · Post by **theone** » 31 Mar 2007, 08:12

5 months wasn't enough time for Duran to get ready for the 2nd fight with Leonard? How much time does he need? Didn't Leonard have the same amount of time?

Very bad excuse considering the fact that Duran rarely waited that long between fights prior to the Leonard rematch. But I guess the new excuse will be that Leonard purposely made him wait too long between fights.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 31 Mar 2007, 08:54

s9s wrote:I'e just finished reading 'Hands Of stone' and the one thing that occours regurly in there is that Duran has all sorts of reasons under the sun why he lost fights up until the tail end of his boxing career.

All the losses agaist Hearns, Hagler, Leonars, Dejesus,Laing, he has excuses as too why he lost, weight, injury, personal , they are all there, while reading the book I took his reasons for losing with a pinch of salt.

I've just finished "Hands of Stone" too, cracking read and I'd recommend it to any of you who havent read it yet.
What is apparent from the book is that Duran's approach to training and preparation were hit and miss, espcially towards the later years of his career. He wasnt in good shape for some of the fights, especially Leonard II and Hearns.
The book also suggested that Hearns intimidated Duran, which I find hard to believe.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 31 Mar 2007, 12:17

My personal opinion is no matter what Duran did in the 2nd fight he was not going to win. He could have KO'd SRL and still lost. Leonard was such a media darling. In the first fight their were those who could not believe that Duran could batter SRL the way he did. The fact is that in the 2nd fight Leonard just didn't want to fight. It takes two to fight. Leonard was more into clowning, not boxing, so Duran quit. Duran knew he was never going to get another decision vs SRL, so he quit. Can't say I blame him.