Mike Tyson-top 10 all time ranking

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 07 Sep 2007, 19:28

Decagon wrote:Who, you? Why?

It is not me...There are a lot of folks here that said that Tyson could not beat Charles, Dempsey or Louis for example.

In my opinion, Tyson's size and power would destroy many heavyweights greats of the past before the great Sonny Liston

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 08 Sep 2007, 03:51

Decagon wrote:
KO Artist wrote:The second fight Liston took a dive as sure as Tuesday follows Monday.
You're acting like a dive means he didn't really lose the match. Let's get one thing straight. Taking a dive is worse than being knocked out. Being knocked out is worse than losing a decision. Losing a decision is worse than winning a decision. And winning a decision is worse than knocking him out. Assuming that they aren't bad decisions/stoppages. Sonny Liston quit TWICE, in the two biggest fights of his career. How can you rank him so high? That's just stupid.

Its not stupid.

I rank fighters on facts, not through rose tinted lenses based on what plastic belts they won.

Look at Listons career before he beat Patterson.

Liston was in his prime in 1958 He was awesome.

Guys like Liston and Holmes werent meant to be champion. The whole system worked against them. They werent protected in order to build up unbeaten records, they did it the hard way against the odds.

For me that makes their acheivement greater than Ali's, who whilst agreat fighter, is overrated by most, who take a romanticised view of him.

IMO the Holmes of 79 would have beaten the Ali of 67

As would the Liston of 58.

theone · Post by **theone** » 08 Sep 2007, 12:17

Guys like Liston and Holmes werent meant to be champion. The whole system worked against them. They werent protected in order to build up unbeaten records, they did it the hard way against the odds.

For me that makes their acheivement greater than Ali's, who whilst agreat fighter, is overrated by most, who take a romanticised view of him.

I'm confused. How exactly was Ali protected? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ali fight a top ten contender in his 9th fight? Didn't he also beat 5 top ten contenders (not counting Cooper who i believe was not in the top ten at the time)before he fought the great Sonny Liston for the title in only his 20th fight? Not to mention fighting Jerry Quarry of all people after his three year layoff. How exactly did Ali have it easier than Holmes and Liston?

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 08 Sep 2007, 16:59

Decagon wrote:
theone wrote:I'm confused. How exactly was Ali protected? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ali fight a top ten contender in his 9th fight? Didn't he also beat 5 top ten contenders (not counting Cooper who i believe was not in the top ten at the time)before he fought the great Sonny Liston for the title in only his 20th fight? Not to mention fighting Jerry Quarry of all people after his three year layoff. How exactly did Ali have it easier than Holmes and Liston?
Every now and then, someone will just hate Ali because he's black, Muslim, anti-war or whatnot, and struggle to find a non-racist way to express this. KO Artist has nothing of value to add to the Ali debate.

Look at Ali's record. I have no view either way on Ali as a person. I judge boxers purely on their acheivements in the ring.

You, in a typical response, are prejudging me of being anti muslim anti black etc. If I hated Ali, as you allege, why would I have him as high as number 4?

What a fool you are. No wonder that in the UK, the typical american is seen as a person with a low IQ, narrow minded, uncultured, and un-worldly wise.

I have no intention of continuing this debate with you as you could not allow it to be conatained within a boxing context.You brought race and religion into it for no reason.

I shall return to the British Forum, where the general IQ seems far superior to that of Decagon.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 08 Sep 2007, 17:30

I agree with decagon that this is more about hate than it is about actual analysis of Heavyweight history. But, for the record...

Ali and Louis beat more Hall of Famers and fought more top 10 ranked Heavyweights than any other fighters have in Heavyweight history. Protected?

Ali had many common opponents with Liston, and two common opponents with Holmes in Norton and Shavers, who are probably Holmes' best wins. Doesn't that make Liston and Holmes protected, if "protected" Ali shared wins over their best opponents?

Liston may not have been in his prime when he fought Clay (Clay wasn't in his prime either, he was 22) but he was far from finished as a fighter. Liston in that fight in Miami Beach would have beaten Patterson, Folley, Williams, Machen and anyone else he beat in the 50's and earlier in the 60's.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 11 Sep 2007, 01:21

Marciano's title defenses are more solid wins than the ones Tyson or Holmes ever had.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Sep 2007, 01:54

definately more solid than Tyson's....most of Holmes' defenses yes, but then again, Holmes fought future champs like Berbick, Witherspoon and the like, which kinda makes it on the level if not surpasses Marciano's.

Klee Gluckman · Post by **Klee Gluckman** » 11 Sep 2007, 06:55

Its hard to keep Tyson out of the top ten if you accept that he won the title from berbick. He had nine sucessful title fights and proved he was the man for that time. Holyfield and Bowe never had that many defences. However head to head, there a plenty of guys that could have exposed him on any given night, and there must be doubts about tysons ability to avenge a defeat.

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 11 Sep 2007, 09:54

Klee Gluckman wrote:Its hard to keep Tyson out of the top ten if you accept that he won the title from berbick. He had nine sucessful title fights and proved he was the man for that time. Holyfield and Bowe never had that many defences. However head to head, there a plenty of guys that could have exposed him on any given night, and there must be doubts about tysons ability to avenge a defeat.

One thing that bugs me out about Tyson not being in the top ten is the fact that he absolutely destroyed Larry Holmes, who despite his age went on to give Holyfield a close fight. Tyson blasted him out of there like another also-ran... so personally I have to have Tyson in my top ten, not sure where though because I don't know how I'd rank certain fighters in certain specific places.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 11 Sep 2007, 10:14

Diamond WEAPON wrote:
Klee Gluckman wrote:Its hard to keep Tyson out of the top ten if you accept that he won the title from berbick. He had nine sucessful title fights and proved he was the man for that time. Holyfield and Bowe never had that many defences. However head to head, there a plenty of guys that could have exposed him on any given night, and there must be doubts about tysons ability to avenge a defeat.
One thing that bugs me out about Tyson not being in the top ten is the fact that he absolutely destroyed Larry Holmes, who despite his age went on to give Holyfield a close fight. Tyson blasted him out of there like another also-ran... so personally I have to have Tyson in my top ten, not sure where though because I don't know how I'd rank certain fighters in certain specific places.

Holmes only had like 2-3 weeks to prepare for that fight after a long lay off. Had he been properly prepared he may well have lasted longer.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Sep 2007, 16:19

One thing that bugs me out about Tyson not being in the top ten is the fact that he absolutely destroyed Larry Holmes, who despite his age went on to give Holyfield a close fight. Tyson blasted him out of there like another also-ran... so personally I have to have Tyson in my top ten, not sure where though because I don't know how I'd rank certain fighters in certain specific places.

Yeah but when Holmes fought Holyfield and McCall he had a few tune ups before hand, with Tyson he just up and used the infamous "championship emeritus" with very little time to prepare and two years inactivity...thats the difference.

Tommy Burns had 10 successful title defenses, including eight in a row by knockout. Is he in your top 10?

Actually it was 13 succesful title defenses, 11 of which were by kayo. It would stand as the HW division title defense record until Joe Louis defeated Gus Dorazio in 1941.