Nov. 8, 1991 - Holyfield v. Tyson - Who would have won?

[streetsaresafer]

November 8th, 1991 - Holyfield/Tyson

Hello, as a first time poster I am curious as to the boxrec forum's opinion as to who would have won this fight.
Did we miss out on an all time classic fight that would have really settled the debate as to who was the greater heavyweight?
What if Iron Mike Tyson did not get that rib injury three weeks before the fight (Elijiah Tillery caused it in a sparring session) and the fight actually happened?
Who wins and why? And a side question - how close to prime was Tyson in 1991?

Here's my analysis -

Evander Holyfield
Remember that Holyfield was unquestionably in the prime of his career, he would have been 29 years old at the time of the fight, coming off what I consider his most underrated performance with his victory against Foreman. Holyfield was undefeated, having already taken out Michael Dokes and Buster Douglas in impressive fashion. He was fighting at what I consider his ideal weight - 208 lbs. Plus, besides the money at heavyweight, the main reason Holy jumped to heavyweight was he wanted a shot at Tyson. He thought he could beat Tyson and we learned obviously in 96 that he could pull off such a feat.

Also, Holyfield was unquestionably better in 1991 than he was in 1996. His workrate was better (look at how many punches he was throwing per round against guys like Dokes and Foreman), he used his jab more, used his footwork more, and was a lighter fighter - 208 lbs typically as opposed to the 215 lbs he was for the 96 fight. Also, the 96 Holyfield was a spurt fighter.

Now some have said that the weakness of the early 90s Holyfield was that he was more prone to be drawn into a war (Bert Cooper, first Bowe fight) and was not the wily experienced veteran he was in 1996. I do not agree with this because Holyfield himself said after the Bert Cooper fight that the way he fought Cooper was not the way he would have fought Tyson. Holy was certainly smart enough to realize that the one guy he might not want to try to outslug was Tyson so I actually would have expected that you'd see a similar gameplan to his fight in 1996. I think the main difference is that he would have clinched less and used his feet more. Also the early 90s Holyfield could box and execute a gameplan - see Douglas, Foreman, and Bowe II fights.

The next question is when was Holyfield's prime at heavyweight? To me, Holyfield's prime was very clearly from 1989-1993 (Dokes fight through the 2nd Bowe fight). Age wise these years were ideal - he was 26 at the time of the Dokes fight and was 31 at the time of the 2nd Bowe fight. He was very good/great in nearly every fight and had only the single loss to Bowe in a classic.

After Bowe II, he became much more inconsistent, looking iffy in Moorer I, Bowe III, and Czyz, while looking formidable against Mercer and Tyson. Also he was carrying more weight (typically around 215 lbs as opposed to 208 lbs, and did not have as good a workrate, and had been through that many more tough fights. Thus, Holyfield was unquestionably in his prime in 1991, where as the 96 Holy was a past prime but still formidable heavyweight. Tyson I consider to be a past prime but still formidable heavyweight in 96.

Mike Tyson
How close to prime was Tyson in 1991? Was the 1991 Tyson different from the 1996 Tyson?

The Tyson of 1991 was in my mind superior to the Tyson of 96. For one, Tyson was a full five years younger (25 as opposed to 30) and many have said that fighters like Tyson tend to peak sooner than a big fighter like say Lennox Lewis. Also Tyson was coming off two impressive hard hitting wins against Razor Ruddock, who by most accounts was the most dangerous puncher at the time not named Tyson.

In terms of boxing, Tyson still attacked the body in 1991 (watch the Rudduck fights), where as I saw very little in the way of a body attack from a post prison Tyson. The 91 Tyson still had all of his speed and reflexes, and still threw good combinations, though he was no doubt more of a headhunter than he was from 1986-88. So offensively, he was still there. Also, the 91 Tyson could go a full 12 rounds (see the 2nd Ruddock fight), where as I am not sure a post prison Tyson ever demonstrated the stamina of a 91 Tyson.

Now let's consider the motivation factor. In 1996, Tyson came into the fight at 222 lbs, at least 4 lbs heavier than Tyson's best weight (216-218 lbs) and was overconfident as well, seeing as though most thought Holy was shot at the time (see Bowe III and Czyz).

Now in 1991, Tyson had all the motivation in the world to get in top shape. For one, he would have been fighting to win back the undisputed heavyweight championship of the world, so the stage could not be bigger. In addition, Tyson would have had a healthy respect for Holyfield as an opponent knowing him to be tough from their Olympic days in 84, and the fact that Holyfield was the undefeated champion. So it is reasonable to expect that Tyson would have taken the fight very seriously and come into the fight in top shape.

The question then becomes, while no one would question Holyfield was in his prime in 1991, how close was Tyson to his prime? This is a tougher question than I initially thought. Nearly everyone seems to agree that Tyson's prime was 1986-1988, culminating with his absolute peak performance against Michael Spinks in 1988.

Unfortunately we know that soon after Kevin Rooney was gone, Don King was in control, and consequently Tyson seemed to lose interest in Cus D'Amato's peek a boo defensive style most notably seen with his bobbing and weaving. Defense is where he declined first.

This is actually why I think the Tyson of November 1991 was the best Tyson possible post Rooney. Think about it for a second, if Holyfield and Tyson fight in 89 or 90 while Tyson is unbeaten, I actually think that would have been worse than having the fight in 91 because Tyson was ripe for a fall in 89-90. He was way overconfident, had a negligent corner (see the Douglas fight), and was dealing with the divorce with Robin Givens. So while an undefeated Tyson against an undefeated Holyfield sounds better on paper, I actually think the fight in 1991 is a better fight because it was after Douglas. The Douglas fight showed Tyson that he was not invincible.

Now some will say, Tyson was never the same after Douglas (Tyson himself said his career ended in 1990), but I disagree, if he had any psychological doubts about his ability as a fighter, it would have shown up in the Ruddock fights. If he had lost confidence in himself, Rudduck would have knocked him out. So to me, Tyson still had it in 1991 and in fact was better than he was post Rooney up to Douglas (89-90) because he was hungry to win his title back.

My point is this - while Tyson was not in his prime in 1991 - no Kevin Rooney, not enough interest in using the bob and weave peek-a-boo defensive scheme Cus taught him - the Tyson of 1991 was the best Tyson post prime, better than 89-90, and better than 96.

Physically he still had all the tools, still had that devastating combination of lethal speed and power. He still punched to the body and threw combinations. Again I think where he had slipped was defensively, he did not bob and weave nearly as much, but there was nothing preventing him from tightening up his defense.

Prediction - Holyfield wins via 12th round TKO
All time classic fight, with Tyson winning most of the early rounds and Holyfield winning most of the later rounds before finally stopping him in the 12th. Honestly the difference to me is Holy's chin. Holy has an all time great chin, thus he would likely survive the first 5 rounds from Tyson because of that. Also remember that Tyson has said that Holyfield was the best counter puncher he's seen, so that has to be factored in as well.
The fight would be somewhat similar to the 1996 fight but much closer and action packed - biggest reason being Tyson was better in 1991. Tyson would have had more energy for the later rounds, would have attacked Evander's body more, would have thrown more combinations, etc.

While their fight in 1996 was a very good fight it was not an all time classic because there were too many clinches and Tyson was not effective enough to make it a nailbiter.

In 1991, I think there would have been significantly less clinches because Holy would have used his feet more, and he would not need to get some of the bits of rest he was able to get each time he clinched Tyson. While he would still clinch Tyson some to frustrate him and not let him get off on the inside, overall the number of clinches would have been significantly lower.

I think Tyson certainly could have won in 1991 but I still would pick Holyfield because he was a better boxer, had the chin to withstand the Tyson onslaught in the early rounds, and would have been stronger late to pull out the victory.

One last thing, Al Bernstein came to my undergraduate college a few years back and I asked him who he thought would have won Tyson/Holyfield in 1991. Al Bernstein said he thought Holyfield would still win, but that it would be closer. He said he thought Holyfield had Tyson's number.

So has does the boxrec forum see this fight turning out?

[markl]

Holyfield would have beat Mike in any part of their lifetimes. Back then it would have been an epic war instead of a one sided affair.

But Holyfield's advantages in will and strength would always be too much for Mike.

I think Mike may see the final bell though.

[BoxBuzz]

Holy due to styles and character.

[I Feel Fine]

I would pick Holyfield, there's not much reason to figure it would go different considering the way Holyfield dominated their actual fights. But who knows, really. I think it would be closer, either way, and might go the distance.

[generic screen name]

1991 Holyfield wins. Same strategy, Holyfield doesn't go for Mike's elbowing/illegal blows, Holyfield headbutts pushes Mike back and wins.

[HomicideHenry]

Holyfield would have beaten any version of Mike Tyson, at virtually any stage of his career 9 times out of 10...I wouldnt care if it was the same Evander who fought Tillman, he still would have beaten Mike.

[ringsider]

Come'on guys...while I like Evander, in 1991 Iron Mike was still the man. I think he KO's Holyfield early.

To say Holyfield would have beaten any version of Mike Tyson is just delusional.

[markl]

Come'on guys...while I like Evander, in 1991 Iron Mike was still the man. I think he KO's Holyfield early.

To say Holyfield would have beaten any version of Mike Tyson is just delusional.

Why? Doesn't it seem more delusional to say Mike scores an early ko over a guy he won one round against?

Cruiserweight Holyfield beats Heavyweight Tyson. Everytime.

[ringsider]

Naaa.....Holyfield got beat up by Michael Moore. I still take Tyson in 1991.

Cruiserweight Holyfield beats Heavyweight Tyson.

That is obviously a drug induced statement.

[markl]

I am on drugs? You're the one who said Holyfield got beat by the fat ass film maker.

Holyfield avenged his loss to Moorer in brutal fashion. Something Tyson would never understand.

[Syntax Error]

Holyfield was far too mentally tough for the weak minded Tyson.

Tyson of 1991 was over the hill.

His 2 fights with Ruddock were terrible displays from him.

Yes, he showed he had a good chin & even showed some heart, but he was too one dimensional, wasn't throwing punches in bunches & not moving his head anymore.

Evander would have stopped him in about 10 or 11 rounds.

[streetsaresafer]

I think no matter who would have won this fight, both fighter's legacy/stock would be higher

If Holyfield wins, it legitimizes him much earlier as a great fighter and a legitimate heavyweight. This also raises the profile even more of the early 90s heavies, particuarly Bowe. Plus it would give Holyfield a win over a Tyson that was closer to his prime. Also, as boxing fans, knowing Holyfield's willingness to take on all comers, we would have gotten a rematch at some point.

If Tyson wins, it gives him undoutably the best win of his career, and a win over an ATG heavyweight. Obviously Holyfield at the time was not considered an ATG heavy (despite being champ) but one would have to think that he would have given Tyson a gallant fight, even in defeat, such that his stock would be raised. I think a loss for Holyfield here would be much like his loss to Bowe in their first fight, in that even though he lost the fight, his stock still rose because of how well he fought. Also, Evander's career wouldn't stop with a loss to Tyson in 91, he showed too much resiliency and heart not to be a major player in the heavyweight division in the 90s. And then even with a Tyson win, a rematch probably would have happened because their first fight would have been possibly a great fight.

In either case, both guy's legacies would be higher had they fought in 91 rather than in 96. I also think this fight would have resulted in less excuses for the loser.

With the 96 fight, one could say Tyson had been in jail for 3 years, he was never the same, he was 8 years removed from his peak, didn't have enough quality opponents before Holyfield, didn't take the fight seriously, etc.

Now I think this characterization is a little harsh because Tyson afterall was only 30 years old for the 96 fight. He had only suffered serious punishement in the one fight to Douglas, so he didn't have much ring wear and tear. And even though he wasn't prime, he looked pretty strong knocking Bruno out in their rematch in 96. So the 96 Tyson was what I would call a past prime, but still formidable heavyweight.

In any case, too bad the fight didn't come off as it was supposed to.

3 biggest missed heavweight fights of the 90s
1. 1991 - Holyfield v. Tyson
2. 1993 - Bowe v. Lewis
3. 1996 - Lewis v. Tyson

A Bowe - Tyson clash would have been nice as well, but that one never seemed close to happening, unlike the 3 fights above which very much could have happened and should have happened.

I really feel like the 90s heavweight era could have matched the 70s golden era had we gotten the big 4 (Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis) to fight each other when they were in the primes or close enough that boxing fans wouldn't complain.

As it is, we only got 2 fights that count as prime v. prime - which would be the 1st and 2nd Bowe/Holy clashes.

[Syntax Error]

Come'on guys...while I like Evander, in 1991 Iron Mike was still the man. I think he KO's Holyfield early.

To say Holyfield would have beaten any version of Mike Tyson is just delusional.

Not at all.

Did you see the Ruddock fights?

Tyson was past his best & Holyfield was in his pomp.

Tyson could not have lived with Holyfield in 1991.

[jezzamundo]

3 biggest missed heavweight fights of the 90s
1. 1991 - Holyfield v. Tyson
2. 1993 - Bowe v. Lewis
3. 1996 - Lewis v. Tyson

Absolutely agreed. This is how I see those fights going:

1991: Holyfield TKO12 Tyson - much closer fight, but Holy is too tough and determined, and has taken over by the end.
1993: Bowe TKO3 Lewis - Definitely the hardest to call. This version of Bowe is better than anyone Lewis ever faced. Prime for prime, I think Lewis wins, but a younger Lewis was easier to hit and would likely have been hurt and put down by Bowe. Bowe's defense was bad though, so an early to mid rounds TKO either way is a realistic outcome.
1996: Lewis KO8 Tyson - Same result as their real fight, but much closer. Tyson takes 2-3 rounds and hurts Lewis at some point, but Lewis fights a smart, cautious fight and eventually stops Tyson.

[BoxBuzz]

Though I picked Holy, Tyson always has a puncher's chance....a very good one at that point in time.

[Klee Gluckman]

Tyson showed in 1991 he could go 12 rounds which is more than a post prison Tyson could do. He could of beaten holyfield skillwise this is an even fight. I do not buy into the mental weakness argument those traits only appeared after prison.

[Syntax Error]

Tyson showed in 1991 he could go 12 rounds which is more than a post prison Tyson could do. He could of beaten holyfield skillwise this is an even fight. I do not buy into the mental weakness argument those traits only appeared after prison.

What skills did Tyson have in 1991?

Look back at the Ruddock fights & you will see he looked terrible in both fights. In fact, both men looked terrible.

Ruddock could have beaten Tyson had he not stood in front of him & traded single shots.

Douglas carved up Tyson in 1990, precisely because he used boxing skills & Tyson's stamina let him down in that fight too.

Evander Holyfield was one of the fittest fighters in history & he was at his best in 1991.

It's hard for me to envisage Tyson having a chance against Holy in 1991.

As for mental weakness, it never really manifested itself because he was far superior to everyone he fought. Had he faced a man of Evander Holyfield's ilk, he would have been taken to the trenches & then we would have seen if he had the mental toughness needed.

[Ezzard]

Tyson showed in 1991 he could go 12 rounds which is more than a post prison Tyson could do. He could of beaten holyfield skillwise this is an even fight. I do not buy into the mental weakness argument those traits only appeared after prison.

Evander Holyfield was one of the fittest fighters in history & he was at his best in 1991.

It's hard for me to envisage Tyson having a chance against Holy in 1991.

As for mental weakness, it never really manifested itself because he was far superior to everyone he fought. Had he faced a man of Evander Holyfield's ilk, he would have been taken to the trenches & then we would have seen if he had the mental toughness needed.

Agreed...

[dr_devious]

3 biggest missed heavweight fights of the 90s
1. 1991 - Holyfield v. Tyson
2. 1993 - Bowe v. Lewis
3. 1996 - Lewis v. Tyson

Absolutely agreed. This is how I see those fights going:

1991: Holyfield TKO12 Tyson - much closer fight, but Holy is too tough and determined, and has taken over by the end.
1993: Bowe TKO3 Lewis - Definitely the hardest to call. This version of Bowe is better than anyone Lewis ever faced. Prime for prime, I think Lewis wins, but a younger Lewis was easier to hit and would likely have been hurt and put down by Bowe. Bowe's defense was bad though, so an early to mid rounds TKO either way is a realistic outcome.
1996: Lewis KO8 Tyson - Same result as their real fight, but much closer. Tyson takes 2-3 rounds and hurts Lewis at some point, but Lewis fights a smart, cautious fight and eventually stops Tyson.

You got the Bowe-Lewis prediction the wrong way round. Bowe didnt want to fight Lewis, hardly a sign that he was confident of success.

[dempseyfire]

Tyson showed in 1991 he could go 12 rounds which is more than a post prison Tyson could do. He could of beaten holyfield skillwise this is an even fight. I do not buy into the mental weakness argument those traits only appeared after prison.

What skills did Tyson have in 1991?

Look back at the Ruddock fights & you will see he looked terrible in both fights. In fact, both men looked terrible.

Ruddock could have beaten Tyson had he not stood in front of him & traded single shots.

Douglas carved up Tyson in 1990, precisely because he used boxing skills & Tyson's stamina let him down in that fight too.

Evander Holyfield was one of the fittest fighters in history & he was at his best in 1991.

It's hard for me to envisage Tyson having a chance against Holy in 1991.

As for mental weakness, it never really manifested itself because he was far superior to everyone he fought. Had he faced a man of Evander Holyfield's ilk, he would have been taken to the trenches & then we would have seen if he had the mental toughness needed.

I don't even believe Tyson's skills had slipped much . . it was moreso that when faced with an opponent who wouldn't run and go down from his Sunday punch he had no plan B, and both Ruddock fights show Tyson clearly frustrated and lacking a coherent plan, similar to how he looked vs Tillis and Tucker years before (but at least with Tucker he remembered to throw some jabs to score points)

[streetsaresafer]

Yeah my predictions for the 3 missed fights

1991 - Holyfield/Tyson - Holyfield 12th round KO/TKO
1993 - Bowe/Lewis - Bowe 9th round KO/TKO
1996 - Lewis/Tyson - Lewis 11th round KO/TKO

1. 1991 - Holyfield/Tyson - Holyfield 12th round KO/TKO
As explained in my original post regarding why I picked Holyfield.

Note - Quick response to those that say Tyson looked bad against Rudduck. I disagree. Rudduck was the biggest puncher in the division not named Tyson and was a quality contender. To me Tyson offensively fought Rudduck pretty well, he dominated their first fight (Ruddock only landed a couple big shots), and the 2nd fight he controlled (though Rudduck certainly did more here).

Tyson attacked Rudduck's body effectively in their fights, he threw some good combinations, and he took some great shots (showing a strong chin).

Where I agree Tyson fought poorly was defensively. He clearly did not make much of an effort to bob and weave. He was an easier target for Rudduck to hit than a prime Tyson was. Offensively Tyson also didn't try to jab his way in much.

But I still think Tyson looked at least 90 percent of his prime self in those Rudduck fights. Where as the 96 Tyson I'd only put at 85 percent of his prime self at best.

2. 1993 - Bowe/Lewis - Bowe 9th round KO/TKO

I like Bowe here, though I think Lewis takes him had they fought in 95.

Bowe was at his peak in 92-93. Eddie Futch said Bowe "never looked better" than he did in his knockout of Jesse Ferguson in the 2nd round.

Bowe had a great left jab when he used it, threw great uppercuts (see Holyfield fight 1), and was a great infighter for a big guy. Offensively Bowe would have given most ATG heavies a tough out.

Defensively Bowe had a great chin. But other than that, this was his weakness. He was too easy to hit. Many of his opponents connected on 50 percent of their punches or more. Now partially that is due to Bowe's aggressive style of fighting but nontheless a concern.

Lewis in 93 was a legit HW contender in 93 (having destroyed Rudduck in 2), but he was not the polished great HW he became under Steward.

The 93 Lewis was much more raw than Bowe at this point. Lewis pawed way too much with his jab. Defensively he was not as tight. And he looked too much to bombing away with his right hand.

So I think a clash between Bowe and Lewis in 93 would have been a back and forth epic fight in 93. But Bowe was too polished in 93 for Lewis. Bowe had the better jab, the better uppercut, and was the more aggressive fighter. If Lewis hit his right hand flush on Bowe he could no doubt win. But I think Bowe and Futch would know that would be the one thing to defend against and I think he would have avoided getting caught flush with Lewis's right.

Even if Bowe gets hit though, he did have a great chin. Lewis's chin was more questionable though (see McCall I and Rahman I). It was not a glass chin (he was in with punchers like Rudduck, Mercer, Holyfield to an extent, Tua, and Vitali). But nontheless no great HW has those 2 kinds of 1 punch losses like Lewis does. So point being, it is enough to be a questionable chin. And I think an unpolished Lewis would not be able to withstand's Bowe's power.

Possibly the best big man fight ever it could have been, but Bowe finishes by the 9th round.

For the record I think had they fought in 93, we would have eventually gotten a trilogy. They would have fought the rematch in 95. Lewis would have won here because Manny Steward improved his jab and tightened his defense enough that I'd give Lewis the edge over Bowe here. Also Bowe was starting to decline by 95, though he was still close to prime. And then the rubber match in 96 would have been Lewis by KO within the 1st five rounds. Bowe was too deteriotated by this point.

3. 1996 - Lewis/Tyson - Lewis 11th round KO/TKO
This could have been pretty great as well. Tyson no doubt would have been a much more live challenge for Lewis here. I can certainly see him connecting on a punch and putting Lewis out.

But I'd still bet on Lewis here. He has the obvious physical advantages being 6 ft. 5 as opposed to the 5 ft. 11 Tyson. And he has a 13 inch reach advantage - 84 to 71. These would be difficult for any version of Tyson to deal with.

Lewis was also in his prime in 96, had been with Steward for over a year. I think Lewis's jab and uppercuts would score on Tyson, and Lewis was strong enough to tie Tyson up on the inside and push him back.

A 96 Tyson would have won some rounds against Lewis in 96 (particularly the early ones). He had all of his power here and was not the shot fighter that Lewis eventually faced. But he was not his prime self. He headhunted too much. But more important than that, he was much easier to hit in 96 than he was in his prime.

So I say Lewis survives the early barrage, and after being behind by a point or two after the first 5 rounds, he starts to take over and control/dominate the fight. Finally stopping Tyson in the 11th.

For the record, I think a prime Tyson would beat any version of Lewis. That's the Tyson it would take to beat Lewis - primarily because he was much harder to hit with his bobbing and weaving. He was a bit quicker and more ferocious than his 96 self, and he could go a hard 12 rounds. He also would jab his way in.

So prime Tyson beats any version of Lewis within the first 3 rounds by brutal KO.
But a 96 clash I'd favor Lewis 2/1 odds wise. It'd be a much better fight than their one sided affair that actually happened, but I think Lewis takes it. Again though, Tyson would be a very live dog in this fight and I would not be surprised if he pulled off the KO victory.

Too bad these fights didn't happen.

[elmersalsa]

I posted this fight years ago, but anyway, thanks for bringing this subject again.

Even in 1991 when that fight was gonna take place, I picked Holyfield to beat Tyson because the "intimidation" factor was not going to be enough to move Holyfield. I think that it would have be a war, maybe a better and more dramatic fight, but at the end, it would have been Holyfield as the winner.

[HomicideHenry]

3 biggest missed heavweight fights of the 90s
1. 1991 - Holyfield v. Tyson
2. 1993 - Bowe v. Lewis
3. 1996 - Lewis v. Tyson

Tyson-Foreman, is more the fight I would have wanted to have seen in the 1990's, but it never happened for one reason or another. Rumor had it, Tyson was scared shitless of Foreman saying to friends that Foreman was pretending to be the 'grandpa' the media made him out to be, that the man was still a monster and wasn't fooling Tyson.

[markl]

As much as I am not a Tyson fan. I think it was more King that was afraid of Holyfield & Foreman.

We saw in 1996 why they avoided Evander. But foreman/Tyson would have been by far the richest fight in boxing history & I never heard it come out of King or Tyson's lips.

George talked about it a lot.

[I Feel Fine]

Tyson would stop Holyfield early? I don't see that at all. I'm not sure any fighter could stop Holyfield early, but Tyson sure isn't one of them. Tyson landed a couple of flush shots on Holyfield but couldn't even knock him down, let alone out. Holyfield was never hurt for more than a few seconds from the couple of big shots Tyson did manage to land. Evander had a great chin.