Pacquiao: Great fighter or right timing?

Cannibal · Post by **Cannibal** » 07 Oct 2007, 06:10

I love watching Pacquiao fght but looking at his fantastic record I think it's a little deceiving.

MAB 1: MAB was woefully underprepared for the fight.

Marquez: Should of really lost it but managed a draw on the cards, we never saw the rematch we should've had.

Morales Trilogy: Morales was pretty much at the end after losing to Raheem, the third fight was also uneccesarry after Pacman won the second so clearly, it was just money motivated.

Larios: Really a feather at best, but best years at super bantam.

MAB 2: Was probably MAB's last fight after a long, hard and glorious career.

What I'd want to see next from him is either the rematch with Marquez or taking on someone dangerous who is in his prime like Valero. He's rematched both MAB and Morales, but really Marquez has been the most deserving of one.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 07 Oct 2007, 06:41

both, great fighter and good timing,

but he looked very predictable vs someone who could anticipate his punches (even though Barrera's reflexes wouldn't allow him to capitalise). Marquez also read his punches after round one of the 1st fight.

Keep Pac away from Juan Diaz, WBA lightweight holder. That's an easy win for Juan.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 07 Oct 2007, 08:46

Both, a man who scored a draw vs a prime JMM and decisive wins (twice vs Morales, once vs Barrera) no matter how ill prepared is a sign of a great fighter.

However, I do think had Barrera been had the preperation of this time in 2003 then he would have beaten Manny. Undoubtedly a great, but probably historians would flatter him a little when he retires. It will be hard for any person to rank Barrera above him - when last night I think he showed prime for prime Marco is better.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 07 Oct 2007, 08:57

Gets the fighters at the right time.

When he fought a good non past his prime fighter he was schooled by Marquez.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 07 Oct 2007, 08:58

Max Molyneux wrote:Gets the fighters at the right time.

When he fought a good non past his prime fighter he was schooled by Marquez.

But at the same time gave Marquez the most difficult fight in his career.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 07 Oct 2007, 09:02

Only because of the speed and knockdowns.

Time Pac right and he can be counter punched.

A prime Hamed would of sparked Pac.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 07 Oct 2007, 09:09

Max Molyneux wrote:Only because of the speed and knockdowns.

Time Pac right and he can be counter punched.

A prime Hamed would of sparked Pac.

One thing that used to be (years ago) labelled about Pacquiao can no longer be doubted - and thats his punch resistance. That was the reason why Barrera was the overwhelming favourite in the first fight. Many saw Pacquiao as a small Super Bantam who had been knockdown.

Never really being hurt in 3 fights with Morales, 2 with Barrera and 1 with JMM - shows his chin. Hamed could punch no doubt, but then so could Tyson and he couldn't do a thing to Evander's chin.

Pacquiao's hand speed is probably superior to all of his Mexican foes - he does things worst than then, but speed isn't one of them. It was Barrera's speed that messed Hamed about - like it was Kelly's speed and Medina's fast hands. Pacquiao would catch Hamed coming in everytime.

I personally think Pacquiao was the most wrong for a prime Hamed than the other Mexicans. All of whom I think are above him, but stylewise - Pacquiao's fast hands, workrate and punch resistance would be too great for Naz... pretty emphatically IMO.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 07 Oct 2007, 09:15

Isn't Barrera only known as a puncher out of the 3 you mentioned though?

Hamed was still capable of knocking out Iron Chined fighter though. Hamed's accuracy would lay Pac out.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 07 Oct 2007, 09:23

Max Molyneux wrote:Isn't Barrera only known as a puncher out of the 3 you mentioned though?

Hamed was still capable of knocking out Iron Chined fighter though. Hamed's accuracy would lay Pac out.

No - both JMM and Erik Morales can punch alright.

Hamed accuracy was only shown against lower level fighters - might be still world class but lower level world class... like Robinson etc. The one time he fought in Pacquiao's level, look what happend.

There is also differing levels of Iron Chinned - when he fought a guy with a good chin it would invariably go rounds, sometimes the distance, sometimes a late stoppage. And all of the Iron Chinned fighters he faced were not as good offensively as Pacquiao.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 07 Oct 2007, 09:35

stujones wrote:Both, a man who scored a draw vs a prime JMM and decisive wins (twice vs Morales, once vs Barrera) no matter how ill prepared is a sign of a great fighter.

However, I do think had Barrera been had the preperation of this time in 2003 then he would have beaten Manny. Undoubtedly a great, but probably historians would flatter him a little when he retires. It will be hard for any person to rank Barrera above him - when last night I think he showed prime for prime Marco is better.

I think the Barrera who beat Naz would definitely have beaten Pacquiao.

Manc_Red · Post by **Manc_Red** » 07 Oct 2007, 10:43

I think Barerra on his day would pip Pacman just.....

last night Barerra contained Pacman's bobbing and weaving very well but when it came to hurting Manny lets be honest there was nothing left in the tank was there?

Being 33 shouldn't be the end for a fighter but he looked in his 40's last night his conditioning wasnt what it should have been either

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Oct 2007, 12:11

Yes, the timing and snap wasn't there in Barrera's punches, he knew he couldn't really hurt Pacman so limited himself to short bursts of activity, before getting back to his boxing.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Oct 2007, 12:43

Manc_Red wrote:I think Barerra on his day would pip Pacman just.....

last night Barerra contained Pacman's bobbing and weaving very well but when it came to hurting Manny lets be honest there was nothing left in the tank was there?

Being 33 shouldn't be the end for a fighter but he looked in his 40's last night his conditioning wasnt what it should have been either

What shocked me was how old Barrera's face looked, all jowly and puffy. 33 isn't old by any means physically, but he looked awful in there.

Thought his conditioning was fine though, he was pretty sharp and nimble in there, and his footwork was good, just he wasn't snappy enough to really capitalise on the openings he made for himself.

Manc_Red · Post by **Manc_Red** » 07 Oct 2007, 12:48

James I feel he done enough not to be knocked out, nothing snappy and he didnt put himself in the danger position off letting rip with manny - because he'd have lost

I think he knew that and feared it - defensively sound but gun-hoe he wasnt.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 07 Oct 2007, 12:56

Great timing but hes an excellent fighter. Last night he looked like shit. Barrera was old but won the first 5 and then 8 for me - I couldnt score the last 3 rounds but thats 6 rounds against an old Barrera. Barrera was never getting the decision last night though with 1 judge giving him only 2 rounds - WTF!!!!

If Pacman fought a prime Hamed instead of Barrera in 2003 he would have got sparked but it would be a multi-knockdown war most likely. But Pacman is way too easy to find and Hamed would sucker him in and smash him

If Barrera was in his 2001 form he would have beaten Pac in a decision

Morales at his best beats Pacman. Morales was past his prime when he got beat by Raheem, is Raheem an ATG?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Oct 2007, 13:12

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Great timing but hes an excellent fighter. Last night he looked like shit. Barrera was old but won the first 5 and then 8 for me - I couldnt score the last 3 rounds but thats 6 rounds against an old Barrera. Barrera was never getting the decision last night though with 1 judge giving him only 2 rounds - WTF!!!!

If Pacman fought a prime Hamed instead of Barrera in 2003 he would have got sparked but it would be a multi-knockdown war most likely. But Pacman is way too easy to find and Hamed would sucker him in and smash him

If Barrera was in his 2001 form he would have beaten Pac in a decision

Morales at his best beats Pacman. Morales was past his prime when he got beat by Raheem, is Raheem an ATG?

Two of the judges only gave him two rounds! Ridiculous!

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 07 Oct 2007, 13:21

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Manc_Red wrote:I think Barerra on his day would pip Pacman just.....

last night Barerra contained Pacman's bobbing and weaving very well but when it came to hurting Manny lets be honest there was nothing left in the tank was there?

Being 33 shouldn't be the end for a fighter but he looked in his 40's last night his conditioning wasnt what it should have been either
What shocked me was how old Barrera's face looked, all jowly and puffy. 33 isn't old by any means physically, but he looked awful in there.

Thought his conditioning was fine though, he was pretty sharp and nimble in there, and his footwork was good, just he wasn't snappy enough to really capitalise on the openings he made for himself.

Yes James, didnt he look old? Do you reckon it is the crash dieting to make weight and then balooning up again for years has distorted he facial features.? He looks like he dyes his hair too.

To answer earlier questions I think both are great fighters, particularly Barrera, whose longevity is something else.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Oct 2007, 13:43

When you consider how long Hamed has been retired, and what Barrera has achieved since then, his career is nothing short of incredible.

A modern great Barrera, and an absolute legend.

At the moment, Pacquaio is a notch short of Barrera's achievements, but he's not done yet, and it will be interesting to see how he does at 135. Will his power carry up the weight? I thought Pacman looked pretty drained last night, he was dry as a bone coming into the ring, and didn't seem to have a lot in the tank.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Oct 2007, 13:48

stujones wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Only because of the speed and knockdowns.

Time Pac right and he can be counter punched.

A prime Hamed would of sparked Pac.
One thing that used to be (years ago) labelled about Pacquiao can no longer be doubted - and thats his punch resistance. That was the reason why Barrera was the overwhelming favourite in the first fight. Many saw Pacquiao as a small Super Bantam who had been knockdown.

Never really being hurt in 3 fights with Morales, 2 with Barrera and 1 with JMM - shows his chin. Hamed could punch no doubt, but then so could Tyson and he couldn't do a thing to Evander's chin.

Pacquiao's hand speed is probably superior to all of his Mexican foes - he does things worst than then, but speed isn't one of them. It was Barrera's speed that messed Hamed about - like it was Kelly's speed and Medina's fast hands. Pacquiao would catch Hamed coming in everytime.

I personally think Pacquiao was the most wrong for a prime Hamed than the other Mexicans. All of whom I think are above him, but stylewise - Pacquiao's fast hands, workrate and punch resistance would be too great for Naz... pretty emphatically IMO.

I agree, I think that Hamed would have had nightmares with Pacman. Manny is so damned quick and hits just as hard as Hamed in my opinion.

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 07 Oct 2007, 14:16

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Great timing but hes an excellent fighter. Last night he looked like shit. Barrera was old but won the first 5 and then 8 for me - I couldnt score the last 3 rounds but thats 6 rounds against an old Barrera. Barrera was never getting the decision last night though with 1 judge giving him only 2 rounds - WTF!!!!

If Pacman fought a prime Hamed instead of Barrera in 2003 he would have got sparked but it would be a multi-knockdown war most likely. But Pacman is way too easy to find and Hamed would sucker him in and smash him

If Barrera was in his 2001 form he would have beaten Pac in a decision

Morales at his best beats Pacman. Morales was past his prime when he got beat by Raheem, is Raheem an ATG?

That's an odd score to me, I gave mab rounds 2,8 and twelve, the rest all to pac. He was landing that lead straight left all night and was the aggressor. Pac won pretty decisively for me.

Ally-M1 · Post by **Ally-M1** » 07 Oct 2007, 14:20

Very Good fighter... Great timing.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 07 Oct 2007, 18:26

Especially as I don't think Barrera was ever the same fighter after the Hamed fight... certainly after the Pacquiao fight. Signs of him no longer being a 3 round / 12 round fighter were there in the Ayalia fight. When he had Paulie all at sea but punched himself out. No preperation problems there.

Although I JUST gave him nod in the third fight with Morales (by 1) I think Barrera not being a 12 round fighter was shown there clearly. If he was, he would have won comfortably - he just seemed to gas.

It cost him the fights vs JMM and Pacquiao number 2. I don't think Barrera was any MORE faded than he was vs JMM, but he's just not a 12 round fighter anymore - a bit like Glengoffe Johnson. If it was a 10 round championship limit Barrera would be #2 P4P still.

He did look physically aged - and he did seem greyer in certain pre fight clips than others... but he thankfully didn't box old (IMO) and its kinda a nice way to go out. I would have loved for him to have beaten David Diaz (cause he would) and create history... but honestly he is calling it a day at bang on the right time.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 07 Oct 2007, 20:48

mrbassie wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Great timing but hes an excellent fighter. Last night he looked like shit. Barrera was old but won the first 5 and then 8 for me - I couldnt score the last 3 rounds but thats 6 rounds against an old Barrera. Barrera was never getting the decision last night though with 1 judge giving him only 2 rounds - WTF!!!!

If Pacman fought a prime Hamed instead of Barrera in 2003 he would have got sparked but it would be a multi-knockdown war most likely. But Pacman is way too easy to find and Hamed would sucker him in and smash him

If Barrera was in his 2001 form he would have beaten Pac in a decision

Morales at his best beats Pacman. Morales was past his prime when he got beat by Raheem, is Raheem an ATG?
That's an odd score to me, I gave mab rounds 2,8 and twelve, the rest all to pac. He was landing that lead straight left all night and was the aggressor. Pac won pretty decisively for me.

The first 4 were close but I though Pacman didnt do anything much in them and thought MABs work was much cleaner because of his timing and defence. I thought 8 and 10 were big for MAB

All of Pacs rounds seemed big 6.7,11 especially. 12 wes closer

Maybe Im biased to MAB, and maybe the first 4 were toss up rounds. Pacman didnt dominate the fight though.

I think if MAB had a bit more self defense and used more timed aggression he would have won. They were scared of the Pacman left but were too resectful. MAB did well when he was the aggressor.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 07 Oct 2007, 20:51

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Great timing but hes an excellent fighter. Last night he looked like shit. Barrera was old but won the first 5 and then 8 for me - I couldnt score the last 3 rounds but thats 6 rounds against an old Barrera. Barrera was never getting the decision last night though with 1 judge giving him only 2 rounds - WTF!!!!

If Pacman fought a prime Hamed instead of Barrera in 2003 he would have got sparked but it would be a multi-knockdown war most likely. But Pacman is way too easy to find and Hamed would sucker him in and smash him

If Barrera was in his 2001 form he would have beaten Pac in a decision

Morales at his best beats Pacman. Morales was past his prime when he got beat by Raheem, is Raheem an ATG?
Two of the judges only gave him two rounds! Ridiculous!

I didnt have a problem with Pacman winning, I had Barrera winning but I prefer his work, Pacman had successes too, but no domination that you'd think would happen from reading the US forums

Am I the only 1 who thought it was a close fight?

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 07 Oct 2007, 21:07

No, I aint seen the last three rounds yet - the biggest I can have it in Pac Man favour is by 2 rounds. I had Barrera 1 up going into the Setanta problems.