World Championships 09

[Dennis]

Hunter lost to Cammarelle 8-1. The score should have been closer. He landed a couple of jabs in the first round that caused Cammarelle's nose to start bleeding, but Hunter didn't get any points for those blows. Granted I also saw a few punches from Cammarelle in the 2nd and 3rd rounds land that didn't give him any points. A 10-6 score would have been more palatable. I can imagine Hunter's frustration with hitting Cammarelle and seeing blood and then finding out that he didn't get any points in the 2nd round. Ditto for the 3rd round.

It looked Mike was doing what a lot of the US Olympians were doing and that is bend forward at the waist. They need to learn range better. It also looked Mike was coming in with the head a bit and then holding. When I watched it, the screen was jumpy and not a smooth running video until the last round. It looked Cammarelle was getting frustrated about the head and started putting some power behind his punches at the end.

Yes, Mike was reaching too much and lunging in. He must have watched tapes of B-Hop and liked the style. I know Mike could do better, but he didn't use one of the main advantages he had which were quicker feet. He should have kept giving little angles and lots of lateral foot movement. Cammarelle took advantage of Mike being right in front of him just jumping in and out. I still think Mike could beat him, but not boxing like he did today.

[locoxelbox]

So my guess on his weight may be too high. So I take it Acosta beat Savon at 91kg.

Acosta beat Savon twice last year but I don't think they've met this year.

On another note I can't stand the idiots introducing the boxers with their surnames first eg "in the red corner Cammarelle, Roberto". What a lack of sense for excitement... Imagine Michael Buffer introducing "In the red corner the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world... Tyson, Mike"

[Dennis]

On another note I can't stand the idiots introducing the boxers with their surnames first eg "in the red corner Cammarelle, Roberto". What a lack of sense for excitement... Imagine Michael Buffer introducing "In the red corner the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world... Tyson, Mike"

Yes, I wish they would change that one flaw.

[Dennis]

I figured Magdaleno would win his bout, but what a great performance. Jesus Magdaleno defeated Dimitrijs Gutmans of Latvia by a score of 26-7. The 17 year old from Vegas should do well.

[Dennis]

I just witnessed several hooks to the body SCORE! The 75kg boxer from Turkey hit the boxer from Kenya with solid body shots and several were counted. The key was the boxer had a little distance from the other boxer and landed the obvious punches. See body shots can count plus these were definitely felt by the other boxer.

[Roberts J]

European Style body punches long pull back and from a distance , judges usually can clearly see those.

[JMac]

I'm watching Gausha , the US 75 kg against the Columbian boxer and he is just lost 12-6. He got a warning in the 1st for holding and an 8 count. Like so many times I've seen in the past, once a boxer is down, the judges don't even look at them anymore and make it almost impossible to come back. I'm not saying he deserved to win by any stretch, but he landed punches and got no points and the other guy landed BS punches and got a point. Had he gotten points he deserved, it changes the way the bout goes as it all of sudden gets close and the crowd reacts and the judges hear that. Same old, same old.

[therealPunchDrunk]

European Style body punches long pull back and from a distance , judges usually can clearly see those.

By European style, you must mean Amateur style. These are the bodypunches that are effective in amateur boxing, and all the top fighters use them, regardless of their origin. I realize the Americans haven't caught on to the amateur rules and scoring yet, what I don't understand is why they don't try to adapt?

[therealPunchDrunk]

And Camarelle was clearly a cut above Hunter, anything else is wishful thinking.

[JMac]

I realize the Americans haven't caught on to the amateur rules and scoring yet, what I don't understand is why they don't try to adapt?

Good question. It is a big country and very hard to get all of the coaches on the same page. You could walk into a big gym like Gleasons in New York City and find 10 coaches teaching differently. Most coaches have dreams of their boxers becoming big time pros and that is the style they teach mostly. It is something the US coaches committee is aware of and would like to change about the coaches but it seems to be a uphill battle. I think most coaches hope AIBA is going to change the scoring system back to the days of before computer scoring but it looks like the changes were only window dressing or very minor. Therefor the style of boxing in the international amateur boxing will stay the same so USA needs to change or get use to losing.
Another problem US boxers has is the lack of international experience. It is also being addressed and will hopefully change in the near future.

[rmz]

I saw Jesus fight, I thought he looked good. He was landing a lot with the left hand...my stream was kind of laggy, but I didn't see him throw many hooks. Hopefully he can keep advancing. I just watched his fight and Luke Campbell's before I decided to go to sleep. The stream was too laggy on my computer to make it worth staying up. Anyone know why India's Jitender Kumar was DQ'd? Thanks.

[Roberts J]

I agree, while I trained in Europe ( Belarus ) we were shown the " amatuer style " Haven't met a coach in the USA who teaches any of the foot movements and the other tricks the Russians, Cubans use. Two different worlds of coaching styles.

[therealPunchDrunk]

I realize the Americans haven't caught on to the amateur rules and scoring yet, what I don't understand is why they don't try to adapt?

Good question. It is a big country and very hard to get all of the coaches on the same page. You could walk into a big gym like Gleasons in New York City and find 10 coaches teaching differently. Most coaches have dreams of their boxers becoming big time pros and that is the style they teach mostly. It is something the US coaches committee is aware of and would like to change about the coaches but it seems to be a uphill battle. I think most coaches hope AIBA is going to change the scoring system back to the days of before computer scoring but it looks like the changes were only window dressing or very minor. Therefor the style of boxing in the international amateur boxing will stay the same so USA needs to change or get use to losing.
Another problem US boxers has is the lack of international experience. It is also being addressed and will hopefully change in the near future.

I think you're right. In America, only pro boxing is respected. Ironically, the lack of results in the amateurs is likely to make that line of thinking even more prevalent: "If we can't win in the amateurs it must be because it's crap" - or something along those lines... Personally, I think the current style of international am boxing requires more athleticism and a wider range of technical ability than pro style fighting, which is more about durability, grit and a different set of skills (more basic). For instance, the young (16-17) boys I train can really do a number on the pro fighters they occasionally spar, when they're only sparring 3-4 rounds.

[rmz]

Well Selimov just clobbered his Afghan opponent at 60 Kg. Selimov looked good, not quite as quick as usual, but he pretty much had his way with his opponent who spent most of the time running around the ring. He knocked the Afghan down pretty hard at the end of round 1. The score was 25-1 and pretty much the only reason the Afghan got a point was that Selimov gave it to him. Selimov was toying with him from the 2nd round forward. I'm pretty surprised the Afghan lasted the distance, he looked shaky at the end and went to the wrong corner twice.

[rmz]

Another American eliminated in the first round...things are not looking good for Team USA. Team USA has gone 2-4 in the opening round so far.

[JMac]

Another American eliminated in the first round...things are not looking good for Team USA. Team USA has gone 2-4 in the opening round so far.

I thought Caferro got screwed a bit. It was a close bout but I saw the Thai boxer get a lot of bs points and the US boxer not getting several points in the early part of the 2nd rd when it was tied and he was in the middle of the ring. The 3rd rd started tied and once again same old, same old. That's why the US boxers turn pro when they are young. It is a catch 22, they need more international experience but when they get it and get screwed, they say heck with this. I may as well get paid when I get screwed. I've seen it too many times.

[locoxelbox]

Sorry to disagreee with the discussion of styles but there is no "international amateur style" or "pro style". What are the similarities of the styles of Guillermo Rigondeaux and Alexander Povetkin??? Or Vasyl Lomachenko and James DeGale??
Boxers have different styles, in both amateur and professional boxing. Or did Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier have similar style? Mike Tyson and Wladimir Klitschko? Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran?

The americans have poor footwork. Yes, they can dance around smoothly but they have terrible balance when they punch and are very slow moving forward, etc. They have good punching technique when their opponent is right in front of them. But give them some movement and they´ll be in trouble. That´s one of the reasons they have lost ground in amateur boxing and they are too in pro boxing. Other countries, specially those with good amateur boxing programs have caught up on them.
The cubans and russians work with a planned system of training since early ages, that´s why they get so good results. The american "system" of training is way too old.

[rmz]

Sorry to disagreee with the discussion of styles but there is no "international amateur style" or "pro style". What are the similarities of the styles of Guillermo Rigondeaux and Alexander Povetkin??? Or Vasyl Lomachenko and James DeGale??
Boxers have different styles, in both amateur and professional boxing. Or did Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier have similar style? Mike Tyson and Wladimir Klitschko? Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran?

The americans have poor footwork. Yes, they can dance around smoothly but they have terrible balance when they punch and are very slow moving forward, etc. They have good punching technique when their opponent is right in front of them. But give them some movement and they´ll be in trouble. That´s one of the reasons they have lost ground in amateur boxing and they are too in pro boxing. Other countries, specially those with good amateur boxing programs have caught up on them.
The Cubans and Russians work with a planned system of training since early ages, that´s why they get so good results. The american "system" of training is way too old.

Well I think that the major problem is the fact that in the States, all training in done on a local level instead of at a national level. Cuba still utilizes Soviet Style training where they gather up potential champs at a young age and train them to compete at a national level/international. Here in the States, a boxer is trained exclusively by his trainers in his hometown and who is to say they really understand how to box on the international level.

The residency program was a good idea, but there were no incentives to stay. Those kids are not going to stay unless you give them some incentives like some $$$. In Russia, those guys are getting apartments, jobs, cars etc. In the States, they don't give you anything...maybe a "stipend" that is never paid out. Why would an American boxer stay in a system or be motivated in a system that doesn't give them anything when they can become pros and get money, fame, etc. How about housing a national residency program at the USOEC and give the guys staying there a free college education or something, that sounds worthwhile.

[JMac]

Sorry to disagreee with the discussion of styles but there is no "international amateur style" or "pro style". What are the similarities of the styles of Guillermo Rigondeaux and Alexander Povetkin??? Or Vasyl Lomachenko and James DeGale??
Boxers have different styles, in both amateur and professional boxing. Or did Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier have similar style? Mike Tyson and Wladimir Klitschko? Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran?

The americans have poor footwork. Yes, they can dance around smoothly but they have terrible balance when they punch and are very slow moving forward, etc. They have good punching technique when their opponent is right in front of them. But give them some movement and they´ll be in trouble. That´s one of the reasons they have lost ground in amateur boxing and they are too in pro boxing. Other countries, specially those with good amateur boxing programs have caught up on them.
The cubans and russians work with a planned system of training since early ages, that´s why they get so good results. The american "system" of training is way too old.

I think what was once the Eastern European amateur style and now adopted by most successful countries works best with the current scoring system. That style is counter punch and run or hold or a one or two quick punch and run and or hold. If you look at tapes of the '76 Olympics, the Euro's boxed differently. I agree with what you say about the US boxers now. The Russians are still coached in the way they were under the soviet system. Cuba learned from the Soviets on how to train coaches which is a great system but that is their job. In the US, amateur coaches are all volunteers and our coach/training system is not good right now.
When you talk about the European pros, they take their amateur style and make some changes to adapt to the pro's. Heck, Rigo is training with Freddie Roach to get adapted to the pro style.
The bottom line with American boxers is the coaches and fundamentals. They are mostly not being taught properly. It's kind of like basketball. The US dominated for many years, got beat by Europeans with better fundamentals so the Americans went bask to basics which is what they need to do in boxing.

[Dennis]

I agree with JMac about Duran Caferro. Duran should have been given some more points and then the Thai would not have been able to run around the ring. Maybe Duran Caferro would have won, maybe not but he should have been given credit for a couple of blows in the 2nd and 3rd rounds that he didn't.

Team USA is young. They aren't performing great, but not bad either. Hunter was boxing the best and did OK even though the score didn't show it. Cammarelle's nose sure did though. The two that won could medal. There are 5 more that haven't competed yet and we could get some more medals out of them.

In regard to the am vs pro, the U.S. produces some great boxers that win world titles. I don't really blame the computer scoring for our lack of success in the amateurs. Our boxers just turn pro to early. Joey Dawejko won the World U-19, but is now pro. Luckily, Frankie Gomes who won gold at the World Cadets stayed amateur as he will do well in Milan. I hope he sticks around until 2012 as he could win gold in London. We need more of the boxers to stick around longer, get the experience and succeed.

[byrdman66]

I agree with the poor foot work, I and expected so much more has is coach. I watched the fight on the website. I am someone who dose not make excuses, would've should've could've, He beat him self in that ring. He need to go in there and fight is fight one elses. Just do LOUIE. peroid.

Louie Byrd just lost to mexican Braulio Avila 14-12. Had expected much more from him...very poor footwork :( .
Fortunately the judges are scoring more frecuently than they have done the last year since the Olympics.

[Kolya]

Another American eliminated in the first round...things are not looking good for Team USA. Team USA has gone 2-4 in the opening round so far.

I thought Caferro got screwed a bit. It was a close bout but I saw the Thai boxer get a lot of bs points and the US boxer not getting several points in the early part of the 2nd rd when it was tied and he was in the middle of the ring. The 3rd rd started tied and once again same old, same old. That's why the US boxers turn pro when they are young. It is a catch 22, they need more international experience but when they get it and get screwed, they say heck with this. I may as well get paid when I get screwed. I've seen it too many times.

Argh! It's already taken him a long time to finally reach #1 in the US and now he goes internationally and catches it.

[locoxelbox]

That style is counter punch and run or hold or a one or two quick punch and run and or hold.

Sounds like Bernard Hopkins


To me there are all kind of styles in amateur boxing:

Fast, long-distance counterpunchers like : Serafim Todorov, Guillermo Rigondeaux, Mario Kindelan (and many other cuban, russian and bulgarian boxers)

Strong pressure fighters: Diogenes Luna, Alexander Maletin, Francisc Vastag, Dorel and Marian Simion (and many other romanian and russian boxers)

High intensity boxers with great variety of punches: Vasyl Lomachenko, Alexey Tischenko, Yuriorkis Gamboa

Tight guard points scorers: Marco Rudolph, Markus Beyer, Paolo Vidoz (and many other german and polish boxers)

Run, score and hold boxers: Zou Shiming, Manus Boonjumnong, Oleg Saitov (and many other thai and chinese boxers)

And so on...

The bottom line with American boxers is the coaches and fundamentals. They are mostly not being taught properly. It's kind of like basketball. The US dominated for many years, got beat by Europeans with better fundamentals so the Americans went bask to basics which is what they need to do in boxing.

Agree completely. Amateur boxing has grown a lot and pro boxing is as well and the US is losing ground in great part due to a lack of technical fundamentals.

[byrdman66]

Is the web site down or is just me this morning.

[Dennis]

Is the web site down or is just me this morning.

Might just be you Jeff. LOL. It seems to be working fine right now.