BoxRec

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:04**

paul mccloskey is from the uk 8)

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:09**

BigEars wrote:
1.Have you seen McCloskey's passport ?

A BBB of C steward will have done and thats why he ended up winning the national title of Great Britian.

2.Born in the United Kingdom does not mean Britain, people born in NI are either Irish, British or both depending upon their own choosing. They are not born into anything other than being Nothern Irish.

I don't make up the rules but a citizen of the United Kingdom is British and not a United Kingdomite, just like a citizen of the Netherlands is Dutch - sorry about that - maybe we should all use the term 'United Kingdomite' just to appease people who care about this shit.
What we can't argue about is the British passport that he holds.

3.Won the Irish title as an amateur and represented Ireland(Not GB) as an amateur, so what does winning the British title mean.

So did Wayne McCullough - what would he class himself as?

4. He has had more fights in Ireland than he has in Britain,

He has had more fights in the United Kingdom than anywhere else.

I've no idea why you keep mentioning UK as being born there does not automatically make you British(depending upon which part).

It does, of course if you are of the nationalist persuasion and choose not to be British and take out an Irish passport then I have no problem with that. But if you do indeed hold a British passport and fight and win a British boxing title then being labelled as British is no big crime.

+ Craig McEwan's fights have all been in America.......still doesn't make him a yank.

[/quote]

Simple examples spouted by the simple minded - well done you!

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:22**

MachoMan09 wrote:Slapbang', without speaking directly to each and every Ulster/NI/NoI fighter (or, if they are deceased, their surviving relatives) since the inception of the noble art, how on earth do you propose to accurately ascribe the nationality they would prefer to have annotated on the boxrec entry? It would be an epic task that would almost certainly create even more division and debate.

Yeah, I recognise that because of the way BoxRec is set up it would be difficult.

But the way it should work, which I think is an extremely reasonable compromise, is that all fighters from Northern Ireland are listed as British. But if the boxer (or someone representing him) asks BoxRec to change his nationaity or someone posts a link from a respected source where they refer to themselves as Irish then its changed.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:23**

slapbangwhallop wrote: I am not sure if you are on a wind up.

No one is saying that the location of his birth should be changed - this is about his nationality or more specifically BoxRec's use of the "nationality" field on boxers records. It doesn't say "Licensed Country", "Ranking Country", "Passport" etc it says "nationality" - hence the reason there is an issue.

"British in every regard as far his professional circumstances are concerned" - I think we have all been through this. Northern Ireland is different to the rest of the UK. I'm not going to repeat myself with regards the citizenship issue in the north but I think we all agree that both Irish and British citizenship have parity there now since the GFA.

"Now if McCloskey identifies himself as Irish and not British in his personal life" - What do you mean "now" have you every read an interview where he has referred to himself as British? Didn't he win the Irish amateur title first? and represent Ireland as a nation on an internationally basis as well? Of course he did, because that was the best thing to do as a boxer to progress his career - like going for the British title was.

If he considered himself British, like many do in the north, then fair enough, I respect that, that's what the new Northern Ireland is all about, but if he considers himself Irish then that should also be recognised.

See the thing is that the British poster on here like to personalise the issue - last time they made it a Duddy issue, this time a McCloskey issue. Its not a personal thing because it effects ALL boxers from Northern Ireland now.

Boxing is strongest amongst nationalist community who predominantly consider themselves "Irish" - so this issue going to be replicated for all boxers and going to keep coming up, again and again.

No - I think you are on the wind up because every time this subject pops up - you are right in the thick of it.

Lets just step away from your political agenda and see boxrec for what it is. It's a boxing records website. I can find you scores of boxers records where the nationality and place of birth don't match. In fact - the Canadian heavyweight title was fought between a Bosnian and a Pole - I am pretty sure these two gentlemen see themselves as Bosnian and Polish. But on boxrec their nationality is Canadian - they hold Canadian passports and have fought for the national boxing title of Canada. It is fair enough for boxrec to classify them as Canadian.

Now Herbie Hide - if you read his autobiography - classes himself as a proud Nigerian but boxrec classifies him as British. He boxed mostly in Britian, and won the British heavyweight title, has British citizenship and for all intents and purposes boxingwise - is British.

Now Paul McCloskey has fought and won a British light welterweight title for which he had to produce a British passport. It is a simple as that. Like Charlie Nash and Hugh Russell classed themselves as Irish they are down on the boxrec records as British as they also would have had to prouduce a British passport to fight for that title.

Now, I have no problem about Paul McCloskey classing himself as Irish but in regards his boxing career and what has done with it, he is definetely British. How you can class someone with a British passport (which Paul McCloskey must have chosen to apply for and recieve) as not British is a bit daft.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:35**

MachoMan09 wrote: And presumably changed back again if the fighter in question elects to fight for a British title at a later date? I get what was said earlier about NoI fighters choosing to fight for the British title for financial reasons and/or as a stepping stone rather than any national pride; but irrespective of their reasoning, if they fight for the British title they surely forfeit their Irish status, right?

Certainly on a boxing records website! If nowhere else.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:35**

King Geedorah wrote:The nub of the issue is that John Shep believes the classification is correct and on this site he has the final say. Sure, I and many others see the fighter as Northern Irish and would classify him as such on our own databases but his record on here reads differently, and if you PM John then I'm sure he will explain the reasoning behind this.

Paul will probably have other things on his mind and won't care about this Boxrec identity hijacking as long as his passport, or passports, allow him to fight for British or Irish titles and he still recognises himself in the mirror every morning. No one is revelling in the issue, very few people care and, again, those who do care and who do want to change it are not going to get their way so should post elsewhere as at least we could then applaud them for their principled stand against Tyrannosaurus Shep.

Given his last few fights the biggest issue facing McCloskey is his porous defence, rather than his Boxrec classification.

As stated by Carlos, nationalism is counter-productive in this particular sport as it limits your scope. Guys like McGuigan and Lennox Lewis were smart enough to recognise this. What was that famous phrase in NI during the build up for Bazza's fights? "Leave the fighting to McGuigan." Good book an' all.

You are skirting around the issue Tel, throwing up smokescreens to avoid coming out and saying that BoxRec field is plain old simply wrong.

I do however find it interesting how defensive you are with regards the issue.

"It's Sheps website - he can do what he wants"

"If you don't like it - do one"

"Paul's got other things to worry about"

"nationalism is counter-productive"

Why not drop the BS and address the issue.

As far as I am aware McCloskey considers himself Irish - why not have that on his BoxRec record? If he doesn't - don't have it on his BoxRec record - why is that something you are scrabbling desperately to avoid agreeing with?

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:37**

Who actually gives a f$£$?!This is a stupid and fairly trivial issue!Just because Boxrec has him listed as being from the United Kingdom surely doesnt Make Mccloskey insecure about his 'irishness'?!Surely people have better things to do than spout on about this bullshit all day!

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:38**

MachoMan09 wrote:
slapbangwhallop wrote:
MachoMan09 wrote:Slapbang', without speaking directly to each and every Ulster/NI/NoI fighter (or, if they are deceased, their surviving relatives) since the inception of the noble art, how on earth do you propose to accurately ascribe the nationality they would prefer to have annotated on the boxrec entry? It would be an epic task that would almost certainly create even more division and debate.
Yeah, I recognise that because of the way BoxRec is set up it would be difficult.

But the way it should work, which I think is an extremely reasonable compromise, is that all fighters from Northern Ireland are listed as British. But if the boxer (or someone representing him) asks BoxRec to change his nationaity or someone posts a link from a respected source where they refer to themselves as Irish then its changed.
And presumably changed back again if the fighter in question elects to fight for a British title at a later date? I get what was said earlier about NoI fighters choosing to fight for the British title for financial reasons and/or as a stepping stone rather than any national pride; but irrespective of their reasoning, if they fight for the British title they surely forfeit their Irish status, right?

Fighting for a British title hasnt really got anything to do with nationality though.

Did Jamie Moore become Irish when he fought for and won the Irish title?

Did Dean Byrne become Australian when he fought for and won the Australian title?

The same way you dont become British you fight for the British title - e.g. Shinny Baayar.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:40**

lefty wrote:Who actually gives a f$£$?!This is a stupid and fairly trivial issue!Just because Boxrec has him listed as being from the United Kingdom surely doesnt Make Mccloskey insecure about his 'irishness'?!Surely people have better things to do than spout on about this bullshit all day!

Well this is your second post on this topic so obviously its struck a cord with you lefty. Also you ignored my response to your first post. Not very polite! ;)

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:40**

slapbangwhallop wrote: As far as I am aware McCloskey considers himself Irish - why not have that on his BoxRec record? If he doesn't - don't have it on his BoxRec record - why is that something you are scrabbling desperately to avoid agreeing with?

Well, as you know yourself - according to the GFA - Paul McCloskey had no reason to take out British citizenship except that it was his choice and his own free will. On the basis of him having a British passport, he was eligible to fight for the British title. It is really that simple and as boxrec is in the business of keeping as accurate records as possible - they are quite correct to label Paul McCloskey as British.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:42**

MachoMan09 wrote:I wish I could get this excited about eff all.

X2

I'm more Irish that the other nationalities I have been "given" and I really couldn't care if it said he was from Mars.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:43**

slapbangwhallop wrote: Fighting for a British title hasnt really got anything to do with nationality though.

Yes it does because you need a British passport to fight for the title.

Did Jamie Moore become Irish when he fought for and won the Irish title?

Different eligibility rules, the IBU have ancestry rules on who can fight for the title.

Did Dean Byrne become Australian when he fought for and won the Australian title?

Again, different rules, being a permemant resident is enough to fight for the Australian title - same as New Zealand.

The same way you dont become British you fight for the British title - e.g. Shinny Baayar.

[/quote]

You'll find Shinny Bayaar has a British passport and is a citizen of this country, I certainly class him as British (as well as Mongolian).

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:49**

Carlos-Wigan wrote:
slapbangwhallop wrote: As far as I am aware McCloskey considers himself Irish - why not have that on his BoxRec record? If he doesn't - don't have it on his BoxRec record - why is that something you are scrabbling desperately to avoid agreeing with?
Well, as you know yourself - according to the GFA - Paul McCloskey had no reason to take out British citizenship except that it was his choice and his own free will. On the basis of him having a British passport, he was eligible to fight for the British title. It is really that simple and as boxrec is in the business of keeping as accurate records as possible - they are quite correct to label Paul McCloskey as British.

We are going round in circles on this one Carlos. In cases like this I tend to list out the queries so progress on a topic can be made.

A. Does McCloskey hold a British passport? Do you know that for sure? I dont.

B. Do you have to produce a British passport to be eligible to fight for the British title? I dont know. I know that to fight for an Irish title you have to produce evidence that you are entitled to an Irish passport but not an Irish passport itself.

C. Does he also hold an Irish passport?

D. Is there a difference between citizenship and nationality? What is it?

E. A passport is proof of citizenship, how do you prove nationality?

F. Is it possible that Paul McCloskey could actually be Irish?

G. What about other boxers from Northern Ireland who consider themselves Irish - should they all be listed as British?

H. Should any fighters from Northern Ireland ever be listed as Irish?

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:55**

MachoMan09 wrote:
slapbangwhallop wrote:
MachoMan09 wrote: And presumably changed back again if the fighter in question elects to fight for a British title at a later date? I get what was said earlier about NoI fighters choosing to fight for the British title for financial reasons and/or as a stepping stone rather than any national pride; but irrespective of their reasoning, if they fight for the British title they surely forfeit their Irish status, right?
Fighting for a British title hasnt really got anything to do with nationality though.

Did Jamie Moore become Irish when he fought for and won the Irish title?

Did Dean Byrne become Australian when he fought for and won the Australian title?

The same way you dont become British you fight for the British title - e.g. Shinny Baayar.
I'll take that as an emphatic 'no', in answer to my question. Anyhow, all this is just arguing for arguing's sake. Paul is from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Therefore his entry in Boxrec is accurate. The 'Irish' is reflected in the 'Ireland' or 'Northern Ireland'.

I am not arguing, I am discussing and that is a cop out of an answer MM.

The field we are discussing is the "nationality" field - not the "place of birth" field.

Yes, Paul McCloskey was born in the United Kingdom but I am sure you have read at least some of the above and are aware that legally citizenship in Northern Ireland is legally treated different to the rest of the UK.

Choose to ignore that if you want but its a fact. Yes, its simpler to have them all listed as "British" but its also wrong.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 06:59**

[quote="slapbangwhallop"]We are going round in circles on this one Carlos. In cases like this I tend to list out the queries so progress on a topic can be made.

A. Does McCloskey hold a British passport? Do you know that for sure? I dont.

He has to or else he wouldn't have fought for the British title.

B. Do you have to produce a British passport to be eligible to fight for the British title? I dont know. I know that to fight for an Irish title you have to produce evidence that you are entitled to an Irish passport but not an Irish passport itself.

Different governing bodies have different rules. The only time Oboh and Bayaar becama eeligible to fight for the British title is when they got British citizenship.
C. Does he also hold an Irish passport?

No idea, he certainly holds a British passport.

D. Is there a difference between citizenship and nationality? What is it?

Of course in the wider scheme of things there is but this is a boxing records website and based on the information we have concerning his boxing career - Paul McCloskey is British!

E. A passport is proof of citizenship, how do you prove nationality?

As you know, McCloskey had no need to take out British citizenship, he must have done out of his own free will. I don't know why he did that and fight for a British title on top of it.
Ask him when you interview him next time.

F. Is it possible that Paul McCloskey could actually be Irish?

Oh yes. But based on what we know about his professional boxing career based on fact. He is British also. If only for the purpose of keeping records.

G. What about other boxers from Northern Ireland who consider themselves Irish - should they all be listed as British?

This is it isn't it. If they fight for the British title then there is no massive crime in classing them as such - as the Swedes say 'if it walks like a duck..'

H. Should any fighters from Northern Ireland ever be listed as Irish?

If they fight for the IBU title and don't fight for the British or Commonwealth titles then I have no problem with it.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 07:00**

MachoMan09 wrote:
slapbangwhallop wrote:
MachoMan09 wrote: I'll take that as an emphatic 'no', in answer to my question. Anyhow, all this is just arguing for arguing's sake. Paul is from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Therefore his entry in Boxrec is accurate. The 'Irish' is reflected in the 'Ireland' or 'Northern Ireland'.
I am not arguing, I am discussing and that is a cop out of an answer MM.

The field we are discussing is the "nationality" field - not the "place of birth" field.

Yes, Paul McCloskey was born in the United Kingdom but I am sure you have read at least some of the above and are aware that legally citizenship in Northern Ireland is legally treated different to the rest of the UK.

Choose to ignore that if you want but its a fact. Yes, its simpler to have them all listed as "British" but its also wrong.
He's not listed as British. He is listed as United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). I don't see what your problem is.

Because it says its his "nationality".

Not being funny mate but do you understand what nationality means - honestly not trying to besmart, thats a serious question.

Also do you think if his nationality is Irish it should be recorded as that?

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 07:08**

King Geedorah wrote:(Sighs) Please tell me that I'm not the only person who read Leave The Fighting To McGuigan. It is not just a gimmicky cash-in book, it is a state of mind.

Got it right here - nicked it from St Helens Public Libraries - this was before they had the electronic sensor whatsits that know if you are nicking all their asterix books! Its a bit schmaltzy but a good read!

* It is actually a very good book with an inspirational front cover (cheers, KG)

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 07:09**

King Geedorah wrote:(Sighs) Please tell me that I'm not the only person who read Leave The Fighting To McGuigan. It is not just a gimmicky cash-in book, it is a state of mind.

* It is actually a very good book with an inspirational front cover (cheers, KG)

I've got it - signed copy - good read.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 07:17**

Carlos-Wigan wrote:
slapbangwhallop wrote:We are going round in circles on this one Carlos. In cases like this I tend to list out the queries so progress on a topic can be made.

A. Does McCloskey hold a British passport? Do you know that for sure? I dont.

He has to or else he wouldn't have fought for the British title.

B. Do you have to produce a British passport to be eligible to fight for the British title? I dont know. I know that to fight for an Irish title you have to produce evidence that you are entitled to an Irish passport but not an Irish passport itself.

Different governing bodies have different rules. The only time Oboh and Bayaar becama eeligible to fight for the British title is when they got British citizenship.
C. Does he also hold an Irish passport?

No idea, he certainly holds a British passport.

D. Is there a difference between citizenship and nationality? What is it?

Of course in the wider scheme of things there is but this is a boxing records website and based on the information we have concerning his boxing career - Paul McCloskey is British!

E. A passport is proof of citizenship, how do you prove nationality?

As you know, McCloskey had no need to take out British citizenship, he must have done out of his own free will. I don't know why he did that and fight for a British title on top of it.
Ask him when you interview him next time.

F. Is it possible that Paul McCloskey could actually be Irish?

Oh yes. But based on what we know about his professional boxing career based on fact. He is British also. If only for the purpose of keeping records.

G. What about other boxers from Northern Ireland who consider themselves Irish - should they all be listed as British?

This is it isn't it. If they fight for the British title then there is no massive crime in classing them as such - as the Swedes say 'if it walks like a duck..'

H. Should any fighters from Northern Ireland ever be listed as Irish?

If they fight for the IBU title and don't fight for the British or Commonwealth titles then I have no problem with it.

I think I understand your position now - basically if they consider themselves Irish and hold an Irish passport but took out a British passport as well just so they could fight for the British title and advance their careers then that makes them automatically primarily British in perpetuity even if they continue to say they are Irish. Is that right?

I wouldn't agree with that position but at least I understand where you are coming from.

Also you haven't really given an answer to question B.

I said "B. Do you have to produce a British passport to be eligible to fight for the British title? I don't know. I know that to fight for an Irish title you have to produce evidence that you are entitled to an Irish passport but not an Irish passport itself."

You countered by saying Oboh and Bayaar could only fight for the British title when they got British citizenship. But that isn't the question - McCloskey is entitled to British citizenship by being born in Northern Ireland but may not have taken it out.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 07:24**

this is a good example of why the troubles over there have gone on for so long..and also why there are problems all over the world..does it fkin matter what country anybody is from? i couldnt give a sht if I was a boxer and they put me down as irish when i am not..i don't care..and maybe if there were more people in the world who did not have chips on their shoulders relating to nationality and religion we would have a more peaceful place?

we all eat, piss and sht..we all bleed when cut..we all end up dead...fer fks sake grow up

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 07:40**

bad mamma jamma wrote:this is a good example of why the troubles over there have gone on for so long..and also why there are problems all over the world..does it fkin matter what country anybody is from? i couldnt give a sht if I was a boxer and they put me down as irish when i am not..i don't care..and maybe if there were more people in the world who did not have chips on their shoulders relating to nationality and religion we would have a more peaceful place?

we all eat, piss and sht..we all bleed when cut..we all end up dead...fer fks sake grow up

that is truly beautiful. I endorse this sentiment.

Why not do away with the having the "nationality" field altogether then, eh? oh wait.........

wouldnt it be more grown up and a sign that everyone respected each others nationalities if we didnt shoehorn all fighters under the one umbrella of British?

Nothing against British - its just not all fighters from the north are.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 07:40**

Basically,if you dont regard yourself as British,dont fight for the British Title.

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 07:42**

mickey1975 wrote:Basically,if you dont regard yourself as British,dont fight for the British Title.

so if you dont regard yourself as European you shouldnt fight for the European title either eh?

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 07:44**

awesome

Posted: **13 Aug 2010, 07:44**

ps: horse.

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