Joe Calzaghe- All time great?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I didn't think the fight was close, but I believe you're right about Kessler having a bad hand.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It was close over the first six rounds, but Calzaghe had the beating of him over the majority of the next six. I think I had it along the lines of 8-3-1, or maybe 9-3. Whatever the particulars, it looked to me that Kessler just did not have an answer to Calzaghe's volume, & that a fit hand wouldn't have changed the outcome.

[oliverfennell]

calzaghe in the same level as

duran
leonard
hearns
hagler
ali
louis
robinson
etc etc etc

all time great???? , you are in the wrong sport son , best british boxer???? you have to fight dangerous men in their prime to do this

he isnt ever the best ever super middle in the country

benn beat mcclelland and mcclelland easily beats anything calzaghe faced

eubank beat benn , watson and rochigianni in germany again better to what joe who cant fly unless its against a 40 year old +

calzaghes best win is against kessler - enough said , hopkins beat him but got robbed

McClellan was a fine win for Benn but it's not as if he's achieved P4P status at the time. He was more of an upcoming talent than an established force. A frightening boxer for sure, but not the equivalent of a Tszyu or a Pedroza or a Curry, etc. Also remember he was coming up in weight. He was certainly better than Lacy, at least in that we have to reassess Lacy post-Calzaghe, but I reckon the pre-fight buzz about McClellan and Lacy was roughly the same for their big British fights.

I'd say Calzaghe beating Kessler is better than Eubank beating Rocchigiani. Obviously Eubank gets credit for doing it abroad, but that was a very, very close fight, while Calzaghe beat Kessler well - and I'd rank Kessler above Rocchigiant, all told.

Eubank's win over Benn is of course very creditable, but the Watson one is probably exaggerated due to how good the fight was and of course the enormity of what happened afterwards. Watson, while a very skilled operator, lost his key fights at world level (whether or not his win over Benn could be considered world level is debatable, as Benn was pretty inexperienced at the time) and Eubank really struggled with him, twice.

And to say Hopkins beat Calzaghe is just your opinion. I know others share it, but I think the majority side with Calzaghe. But if we want to bring up debatable decisions, then Benn and especially Eubank had their share too.

I'd definitely rank Calzaghe as Britain's best ever SMW, although I'd hear an argument for Benn. Eubank, though, no chance - his best wins are no better than Calzaghe's, he too had some very poor WBO challengers, and a number of controversial/unconvincing decision wins.

[oliverfennell]

I like to see joe being mentioned in the same breath as Lopez

i'll say a few things for him. forgetting his record for a moment, he had several attributes that were at least as good as anyone's I have seen, to wit:

Stamina. I reckon he's up there with anyone at all for maintaining a high workrate over 12.

Recovery ability, as Oliver implied a while back, he recovered from any heavy shots he took very well indeed.

Adaptability and versatility excellent, ring generalship good, decent reflexes.

add those to decent footwork and excellent handspeed, you have a very good package.

shame it wasn't tested more.

Yes -I don't think anyone will argue that Calzaghe was an ATG talent, which makes his matchmaking all the more frustrating. He could have achieved more than he did.

[oliverfennell]

Overrated bum, at best.

That is despicable. My friend let me inform you of two things:

1. Bums do NOT hold a Major World Title for over 10 years.

2. Bums do NOT beat the likes of Hopkins and Jones Jr.

As has been pointed out on countless occasions on this thread - Jones Jr was a shell of his former self and had pretty much nothing left. This was clearly evidenced in his KO losses both before and after the JC fight. Hopkins was still threatening but was way past peak. You're not going to convince me that Calzaghe victory over a 43 year old marks him for greatness.

ps 2. Bums do NOT beat the likes of Hopkins and Jones Jr.

- presume you therefore rate Trevor Berbick as an ATG as well? After all, he beat Muhammad Ali.[/quote]

Nobody rates Berbick as an ATG but nobody rates him as a bum, either. It's your use of that particular term which bothers people. There's certainly an argument for Calzaghe not being a great, but there's no argument whatsoever for him being a bum. FFS.

[telboy66]

That is despicable. My friend let me inform you of two things:

1. Bums do NOT hold a Major World Title for over 10 years.

2. Bums do NOT beat the likes of Hopkins and Jones Jr.

As has been pointed out on countless occasions on this thread - Jones Jr was a shell of his former self and had pretty much nothing left. This was clearly evidenced in his KO losses both before and after the JC fight. Hopkins was still threatening but was way past peak. You're not going to convince me that Calzaghe victory over a 43 year old marks him for greatness.

ps 2. Bums do NOT beat the likes of Hopkins and Jones Jr.

- presume you therefore rate Trevor Berbick as an ATG as well? After all, he beat Muhammad Ali.

Nobody rates Berbick as an ATG but nobody rates him as a bum, either. It's your use of that particular term which bothers people. There's certainly an argument for Calzaghe not being a great, but there's no argument whatsoever for him being a bum. FFS.[/quote]

I'm with you on this one Oliver Joe's fights with Lacey & Kessler were prove enough of his class & not too many boxers get up from 1st round knock downs against 2 certain HOF boxer to go on & dominate both. bum indeed! what a cheek if he is where does that put some of our other great & worthy world champs

[Ezzard]

Show me a non-Brit who likes Calzaghe's chances against the Jones of 168, Ezz 8)

No, I have to show you one non-Brit who can imagine a single scenario in which Calzaghe wins. And you know Joe's old man is Italian!!!

[Goodnight, Irene]

Please. Calzaghe is completely a UK product.

[Ezzard]

Please. Calzaghe is completely a UK product.

Turn him upside down and he's got Capodiomonte stamped on his backside.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Which is exactly what he'd be sitting on, fighting the 168lb. Jones

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I think it would be a good fight, Jones had moderate issues with southpaws and he never faced anyone with Joe's speed. I wouldn't call it a toss up or anything, but Calzaghe winning wouldn't shock me. I'd be pretty surprised if the fight didn't go the distance.

[Counter-puncher]

I am a total Calzaghe-lover, have no problem admitting it.

their careers didn't quite overlap at 168, but in a hypo, the best version of RJJ i think possibly sweeps the first 5 or 6 rounds vs Joe. I do, however, think that Joe's workrate and stamina- one level on which i am pretty sure he trumps RJJ- would mean he would both last the distance, and win maybe 3-4 out of the last 6-7 rounds. I have it an 8-4 type win.

but in a hypothetical trilogy, especially given say 18 months gap between fights, I think Joe's chances of taking 2 out of the 3 are quite good, and i don't mean vs the shell Joe did end up fighting.

The Jones who fought Tarver, or put another way a pre-knockout RJJ even, could definitely lose at least 1 out of 2 against calzaghe.

post-knockout joe sweeps him, is that an obvious thing to say? i guess so.

[Seamus]

Let's not forget that while younger, Calzaghe was still 36 himself when he beat Hopkins and Jones. How many guys at Joe's age had his handspeed ? Not too many.

[SAPFO]

His legacy will grow with time you watch!

[Jacopodb]

Where does he feature? The guy beat everyone in his era but do we actually know just how good he was?

What could he have done differently to improve his legacy?

My usual humble two-cents:

IBHoF ain't sh*it.

As far as I know, it might be politicised, biased, screwed up or anything else. Worse never ends. Whatever. No better than R&R-hall-of-fame or Ballon d'Or (Luis Figo pubblically apologised to, and also allegedly telephoned Totti, to apologise for having won the 2000 Ballon d'Or when Totti had actually deserved it).

Mathematical hypothesis:
Calzaghe : Mayweather Jr. : Marciano = clean records, and we never knew what they are capable of, as boxers, so far period.

Calzaghe could have moved up to heavyweights and beaten down Valuev, he could've eaten a whole pan of fried tarantulas, he could've pissed directly in his own mouth and drank his own pee like Marquez...

...None of that would have improved his legacy, not the tough Froch or the dirty Ward, forget about Roy Jones Junior and Hopkins: all of them past-their-prime, Calzaghe included, obviously, all of them fighting on equal terms, don't give me no prime/ducking sh*t, Calzaghe is Calzaghe, Roy Jones Jr. is Roy Jones Jr., B-Hop is B-Hop etc.

Forget boxrec's ratings: Roy Jones Jr. was all fitness, and relied almost solely on both his physical makings, and training-related assets: lost that, lost anything special he had... Still great, but not special. Now Calzaghe is one special fella: powerpuncher with brittle hands, he coped with it no-less than Mayweather Jr.... Calzaghe is as close to a top-10-all-time-p4p-boxers list as arguably anyone could be.
Relying too much on your own body-assets, that's for showbusiness; compensating your own physical issues with technique & work-ethics, while maintaining Calzaghe's/Mayweather Jr.'s/Marciano's (who was technically a super-middleweight, as far as I know) standards, that's high-ranked-all-timer stuff, regardless of what detractors say: "he ducked people, he only fought bums/oldies/washed-ups, benefited from biased/corrupt juries, etc. etc. etc...". Better talk fishin'.
Hopkins is obviously autre chose, but dirty-enough and less-complete than the excellent Welshman.

If they had still not inducted Calzaghe, the IBHoF head-quarters would have been bombed with a Molotov or so, soon or late.
Virtue out of necessity: so, either out of common sense, or out of cowardice, Calzaghe would've been inducted into IBHoF, nevertheless, sooner or too late...

I might be wrong, but I try my best.

[Crease]

Yes, he was an all-time great.

[Jacopodb]

Yes, he was an all-time great.

Period.

[Jacopodb]

I won't even bother writing on Marciano/Floyd Jr.-all-time-related topics, for I've said enough, in here.

[chrisjs1985]

Absolutely he is. A special fighter. I'd say just about one of the top 10 boxers of the last 30 years across all weight classes and on the all-time British list he's probably around 4-7. He has the numbers, stats and skills (eye test) to show it though his resume isn't as deep as I'd have wanted he still got some quality in there.

[Controversial]

Considering he was blighted by hand injuries his entire career his career was very good. The win over Hopkins looks better in time.

[Bodyshot3]

Considering he was blighted by hand injuries his entire career his career was very good. The win over Hopkins looks better in time.

Agreed Controversial........when his hands were good Calzaghe could be a fast, nasty and clinical finisher.

As his career progressed and the hands became more problematic he invested more into upping his impressive output, shot accuracy and got adept at managing fights. And there was still enough on his shots to stop blokes from wading-in.

I'd have loved to have seen in with Collins, Benn and Froch but sadly we'll never know what would have unfolded.

[chrisjs1985]

I think what's so underrated with Calzaghe is how good he was at adapting and how improvisational he could be. He was a very smart fighter not relying on studying tape but getting in there and seeing for himself. He had a gear and style that was just next level. He was really tireless and once he got into the groove nobody could really live with him.

[prewarboxing]

Absolutely he is. A special fighter. I'd say just about one of the top 10 boxers of the last 30 years across all weight classes and on the all-time British list he's probably around 4-7. He has the numbers, stats and skills (eye test) to show it though his resume isn't as deep as I'd have wanted he still got some quality in there.

This is a well-observed post. Calzaghe, whilst not my favourite ever fighter, deserves some credit. Maybe 7-10 rather than 4-7 in the UK but definitely up there.

To say he was the best ever, however, is silly.

Miles Templeton

[Controversial]

Considering he was blighted by hand injuries his entire career his career was very good. The win over Hopkins looks better in time.

Agreed Controversial........when his hands were good Calzaghe could be a fast, nasty and clinical finisher.

As his career progressed and the hands became more problematic he invested more into upping his impressive output, shot accuracy and got adept at managing fights. And there was still enough on his shots to stop blokes from wading-in.

I'd have loved to have seen in with Collins, Benn and Froch but sadly we'll never know what would have unfolded.

Here's a snippet from an interview with JC back in 2014.

“But it was also about listening to your body. I’ve got back trouble nowadays and did on occasion when I boxed and my hands are a mess, as they were throughout my career. However, now, I’m not even sure they could license me with the state of my hands. One of them is arthritic, according to the doctor and I do have a lot of issues with them, they are even more fragile now, time hasn’t really helped to heal them! I boxed from age nine, has my first amateur fight in 1982, I trained like a professional, was doing five mile road runs from the age of 12 or 13, so it’s hardly surprising the toll it has taken on me physically. My body took a pounding. If I’d have listened to the doctors I’d probably have never turned pro. I had hand problems from age 15 and even now I can’t bend back my left hand (reporter note: at this point he demonstrated and indeed, he can’t bend it). I boxed for money and to feed my children. I had periods in my career where I’d be promoting fights and telling everyone I was in the best shape of my career and the actual truth wouldn’t have been as appealing. Can you imagine? ‘Yeah, I don’t feel great, I’ve not been able to do one minute of sparring and I’ll have to beat this guy with one hand as the other one is so badly damaged’ it wouldn’t have sold out too many arenas, lines like that. That’s the way it is, I patched myself up with as much as I could, be it a cortisone injection or extra padding in sparring and I got on with things. But I didn’t retire too early aged 36, far from it. I should’ve retired when I was 16!”

[Bodyshot3]

Thanks for the above Controversial...........

.....a good find and Joe's excellent book No Ordinary Joe has plenty of similar anecdotes. The injections were not once in a while procedures and especially towards the end of his career they were actually an absolute necessity.

What I do admire about Calzaghe - and which in turn was a huge factor in his success - was a fierce desire to prepare for fights in his own low key and very particular way.

Just completely out of limelight, no distractions whatsoever and trusting a set-up that was very basic in terms of facilities but excellent in terms of sharpening his skills, getting supremely fit and mentally right in the zone.

Reading Joe's book you get the sense that he was a very grounded, home-loving guy and also sufficiently strong-minded to resist offers to move to London and working with a named trainer in an 'established' gym.

I suppose it is a long-winded way of saying that Joe completely knew his own mind and was mentally a tough nut as well.......the extra ingredient was his extraordinary father Enzo who variously annoyed, inspired and protected him.