BoxRec

Ambling Alp wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote: that is the problem with Youtube. People watch a few brief highlights and think that is accurrate. Watch all ofthe fights that are available. Walcctt, Charles,Moore,La Starza, a way past it Louis, even Cockell. They all had very little trouble hitting him.
The nice things that Ali or anyone else said about him doesn't really mean anything.

Defense was not his strong suit by a longshot. His chin, power, and tenacity were what made him great.
His stamina was great, but so was Frazier's. could Frazier go all out for 15 rounds? Yes, we have seen him do it. Actually Marciano only went 15 one time himself. However, there is little evidence that either would have a major problem.

You would have made a great sportswriter, Alp. But the fact is that knowledgable people in boxing said that Rocky had a pretty good defense, and you can see it on the films. He was no Young Griffo or Willie Pep (Rocky got hit), but his defense was not that bad. He rolled with a lot of punches, and blocked punches with efficiency.

Could it be that knowledgeable people are sometimes wrong? Or are they right and it's just an oddity that everyone (that we have seen) that he fought didn't seem to have much trouble hitting him?

At least two (possibly three) guys who fought him said he was not easy to hit: Keene Simmons, Roland LaStarza, and Archie Moore. All three said, from outside the ring, he looked easy to hit. But when you got him between the ropes, it turned out he wasn't so easy after all. I am not saying he was a master of defense; I'm saying that his so-called lack of defense has been overstated.

raylawpc wrote:Rocky didn't run three miles "everyday." He went for long walks everyday, though. In 1955, Charlie Goldman said he knew Rocky was planning to retire when Rocky confessed he was no longer going for a walk everyday.

Today, Rocky might have jogged everyday. But back in the 1950s, people didn't jog for recreation like today. You ran if you were training in the military, you were an athlete in training, or a cop was chasing you.

Actually Marciano did indeed run everyday. And that includes Christmas. Where he lived, nearby there was a hill and he used to charge up and down it to strengthen his legs...

I will send you a link when I find it.

Who cares? Nobody is questioning Marciano's condition. You're questioning Frazier's.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Who cares? Nobody is questioning Marciano's condition. You're questioning Frazier's.

Questioning it as being superior to Marciano's.... Certainly I am.

Crease wrote:

raylawpc wrote:Rocky didn't run three miles "everyday." He went for long walks everyday, though. In 1955, Charlie Goldman said he knew Rocky was planning to retire when Rocky confessed he was no longer going for a walk everyday.

Today, Rocky might have jogged everyday. But back in the 1950s, people didn't jog for recreation like today. You ran if you were training in the military, you were an athlete in training, or a cop was chasing you.

Actually Marciano did indeed run everyday. And that includes Christmas. Where he lived, nearby there was a hill and he used to charge up and down it to strengthen his legs...

I will send you a link when I find it.

Nope . . . he didn't do that when he wasn't in training. I don't need a link. I've got a contemporaneous quote from Marciano in my files in which he explained what he did to stay in shape between fights.

Crease wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Who cares? Nobody is questioning Marciano's condition. You're questioning Frazier's.

Questioning it as being superior to Marciano's.... Certainly I am.

You questioned if Frazier could go hard for 15 rounds.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Crease wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Who cares? Nobody is questioning Marciano's condition. You're questioning Frazier's.

Questioning it as being superior to Marciano's.... Certainly I am.

You questioned if Frazier could go hard for 15 rounds.

IMHO, arguing whether a prime Frazier or a prime Marciano had better stamina or conditioning is about as silly as arguing whether Scarlett Johansson or Halle Berry is more beautiful.

raylawpc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Crease wrote: Questioning it as being superior to Marciano's.... Certainly I am.

You questioned if Frazier could go hard for 15 rounds.

IMHO, arguing whether a prime Frazier or a prime Marciano had better stamina or conditioning is about as silly as arguing whether Scarlett Johansson or Halle Berry is more beautiful.

Indeed........

raylawpc wrote:Nope . . . he didn't do that when he wasn't in training. I don't need a link. I've got a contemporaneous quote from Marciano in my files in which he explained what he did to stay in shape between fights.

Well here's one for a start (though it's not the one I was referring to earlier)
From: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 531AAJXTw4

Rocky (someone once said) was addicted to exercise like some people are addicted to drugs.
He had a 'special' bag made - 300lbs ! (He figured after 300 lb. bag training he could move 200 + lb. heavyweights around.)

He liked to run uphill in training (full speed) and then run backwards back down. Did this over and over. (I've noticed in fight films of Rocky, he dips very low, he did this because he was short and made himself even shorter thus making him a harder target. But notice those tree-trunk legs also when he's comming back up from the low dip. those legs were strong and I think he used that to help him generate power comming back up.)

Sometimes Rocky went shoulder deep in a swimming pool and threw hundreds of underwater punches.

Jogged 6-7 miles every morning.( His uncle,Charlie Piccento, said he even did this on Christmas mornings as well.) Ben Bently, Rocky's press agent, said after signing for a fight he would increase to 9-10 miles. And then the last week before a fight he would increase 12-15 miles. And all this in hilly country!

Was also like a Monk - He secluded himself from wife and family sometimes up tp 3 months before a fight, watched his diet, weight and muscle tone. A week before a fight he would see no mail, take no calls, meet no new acquaintances, not even shake hands (I assume so as not to catch the flu-?) or go for a car ride, and no new foods.

Archie moore - "...he just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves."
Roland LaStraza - "I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The diffrence was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches."

There are many, many other websites which discuss Marciano's training regime in great detail...

Crease wrote:There are many, many other websites which discuss Marciano's training regime in great detail...

And the one I have, by Rocky himself, says that he walked a lot, exercised, watched what he ate, and spent time in the pool between bouts to stay in shape. I'll take that one . . .

Now, the "time-off" between bouts was relative . . . most guys would train eight-weeks for a 15 round fight. Rocky might train three or four months.

N.B.: Excuse me, I checked my file. It wasn't Rocky who talked about walking everyday when he wasn't in camp, it was Charlie Goldman. See Sports Illustrated (12-3-1956), p. 32. And you'll pardon me if I take Charlie's word over some poster on Yahoo.

Crease wrote:

raylawpc wrote:Nope . . . he didn't do that when he wasn't in training. I don't need a link. I've got a contemporaneous quote from Marciano in my files in which he explained what he did to stay in shape between fights.

Well here's one for a start (though it's not the one I was referring to earlier)
From: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 531AAJXTw4

Rocky (someone once said) was addicted to exercise like some people are addicted to drugs.
He had a 'special' bag made - 300lbs ! (He figured after 300 lb. bag training he could move 200 + lb. heavyweights around.)

He liked to run uphill in training (full speed) and then run backwards back down. Did this over and over. (I've noticed in fight films of Rocky, he dips very low, he did this because he was short and made himself even shorter thus making him a harder target. But notice those tree-trunk legs also when he's comming back up from the low dip. those legs were strong and I think he used that to help him generate power comming back up.)

Sometimes Rocky went shoulder deep in a swimming pool and threw hundreds of underwater punches.

Jogged 6-7 miles every morning.( His uncle,Charlie Piccento, said he even did this on Christmas mornings as well.) Ben Bently, Rocky's press agent, said after signing for a fight he would increase to 9-10 miles. And then the last week before a fight he would increase 12-15 miles. And all this in hilly country!

Was also like a Monk - He secluded himself from wife and family sometimes up tp 3 months before a fight, watched his diet, weight and muscle tone. A week before a fight he would see no mail, take no calls, meet no new acquaintances, not even shake hands (I assume so as not to catch the flu-?) or go for a car ride, and no new foods.

Archie moore - "...he just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves."
Roland LaStraza - "I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The diffrence was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches."

I didn't read a thing in here about Joe Frazier having issues with stamina.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I didn't read a thing in here about Joe Frazier having issues with stamina.

No. Because the conversation has moved on and we were discussing Marciano's training regime.
Do try and keep up, won't you?

raylawpc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Crease wrote: Questioning it as being superior to Marciano's.... Certainly I am.

You questioned if Frazier could go hard for 15 rounds.

IMHO, arguing whether a prime Frazier or a prime Marciano had better stamina or conditioning is about as silly as arguing whether Scarlett Johansson or Halle Berry is more beautiful.

Prepostorous.

It's clearly Berry.

I agree its an absurd analogy. Johansson by miles and miles and miles.

I'll go by the evidence before my eyes.

Marciano, when riled up, simply threw more leather than any other heavyweight I've ever seen in the later rounds that counted. Moore, who's judgement I trust, says he was a monster from the later rounds on.

Probably the fittest champion there was....

An indication is his very stable weight in the latter part of his career. Not like some of the more recent lard-bags who's fighting weights roller-coast alarmingly.....

Archie was a great guy, but I would take aything that he said with a grain of salt. He was a character. For example, he claimed that the referee cost him the fight against Marciano by not letting him get at Marciano soon enough after he knocked Marciano down. That was a tall tale.

Hard to say about the later rounds given that Marciano didn't have that many fights go that long. Only 3 were past 10 rounds. However, he looked like he could have gone longer if he had to.
Marciano did throw a lot of punches, no doubt about it. He was not that accurrate, but the sheer volume that threw meant that he was going to land a lot.

Ambling Alp wrote:Archie was a great guy, but I would take aything that he said with a grain of salt. He was a character. For example, he claimed that the referee cost him the fight against Marciano by not letting him get at Marciano soon enough after he knocked Marciano down. That was a tall tale.

Hard to say about the later rounds given that Marciano didn't have that many fights go that long. Only 3 were past 10 rounds. However, he looked like he could have gone longer if he had to.
Marciano did throw a lot of punches, no doubt about it. He was not that accurrate, but the sheer volume that threw meant that he was going to land a lot.

I disagree with your rendition of the facts, but not your interpretation. Referee Harry Kessler did make a mistake with the knockdown. Rocky got up at a count of two. At that time, NY didn't have a mandatory eight-count rule for championship fights, but Kessler kept counting for two or three more seconds before he apparently realized his mistake, and stepped aside for the fight to continue. That is a fact. It is clearly seen on the film of the fight.

Moore said immediately after the fight, "When he got up, I let him get away." Why did Marciano get away? Archie said (1) he was surprised he knocked Marciano down; (2) he hadn't warmed up sufficiently before the fight, and (3) he didn't step-in enough with his followup punches. No mention of being cheated by Kessler. In fact, it wasn't until years later that Moore began claiming he was cheated by Kessler.

Could he have stopped Marciano had Kessler not interfered for, at best, three seconds? Rocky said after the fight that he blacked out for just a second, and his head cleared quickly. But who really knows?

raylawpc wrote: I disagree with your rendition of the facts, but not your interpretation. Referee Harry Kessler did make a mistake with the knockdown. Rocky got up at a count of two. At that time, NY didn't have a standing eight-count rule for championship fights, but Kessler kept counting for two or three more seconds before he apparently realized his mistake, and stepped aside for the fight to continue. That is a fact. It is clearly seen on the film of the fight.

Moore said immediately after the fight, "When he got up, I let him get away." Why did Marciano get away? Archie said (1) he was surprised he knocked Marciano down; (2) he hadn't warmed up sufficiently before the fight, and (3) he didn't step-in enough with his followup punches. No mention of being cheated by Kessler. In fact, it wasn't until years later that Moore began claiming he was cheated by Kessler.

Could he have stopped Marciano had Kessler not interfered for, at best, three seconds? Rocky said after the fight that he blacked out for just a second, and his head cleared quickly. But who really knows?

I think you mean mandatory.

Giancarlo wrote:

raylawpc wrote: I disagree with your rendition of the facts, but not your interpretation. Referee Harry Kessler did make a mistake with the knockdown. Rocky got up at a count of two. At that time, NY didn't have a standing eight-count rule for championship fights, but Kessler kept counting for two or three more seconds before he apparently realized his mistake, and stepped aside for the fight to continue. That is a fact. It is clearly seen on the film of the fight.

Moore said immediately after the fight, "When he got up, I let him get away." Why did Marciano get away? Archie said (1) he was surprised he knocked Marciano down; (2) he hadn't warmed up sufficiently before the fight, and (3) he didn't step-in enough with his followup punches. No mention of being cheated by Kessler. In fact, it wasn't until years later that Moore began claiming he was cheated by Kessler.

Could he have stopped Marciano had Kessler not interfered for, at best, three seconds? Rocky said after the fight that he blacked out for just a second, and his head cleared quickly. But who really knows?

I think you mean mandatory.

Yes, thanks.

raylawpc wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Archie was a great guy, but I would take aything that he said with a grain of salt. He was a character. For example, he claimed that the referee cost him the fight against Marciano by not letting him get at Marciano soon enough after he knocked Marciano down. That was a tall tale.

Hard to say about the later rounds given that Marciano didn't have that many fights go that long. Only 3 were past 10 rounds. However, he looked like he could have gone longer if he had to.
Marciano did throw a lot of punches, no doubt about it. He was not that accurrate, but the sheer volume that threw meant that he was going to land a lot.

I disagree with your rendition of the facts, but not your interpretation. Referee Harry Kessler did make a mistake with the knockdown. Rocky got up at a count of two. At that time, NY didn't have a mandatory eight-count rule for championship fights, but Kessler kept counting for two or three more seconds before he apparently realized his mistake, and stepped aside for the fight to continue. That is a fact. It is clearly seen on the film of the fight.

Moore said immediately after the fight, "When he got up, I let him get away." Why did Marciano get away? Archie said (1) he was surprised he knocked Marciano down; (2) he hadn't warmed up sufficiently before the fight, and (3) he didn't step-in enough with his followup punches. No mention of being cheated by Kessler. In fact, it wasn't until years later that Moore began claiming he was cheated by Kessler.

Could he have stopped Marciano had Kessler not interfered for, at best, three seconds? Rocky said after the fight that he blacked out for just a second, and his head cleared quickly. But who really knows?

There is no way that Marciano was going to be knocked out there. Let's not make up a huge "what if" where there is not one.

Ambling Alp wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Archie was a great guy, but I would take aything that he said with a grain of salt. He was a character. For example, he claimed that the referee cost him the fight against Marciano by not letting him get at Marciano soon enough after he knocked Marciano down. That was a tall tale.

Hard to say about the later rounds given that Marciano didn't have that many fights go that long. Only 3 were past 10 rounds. However, he looked like he could have gone longer if he had to.
Marciano did throw a lot of punches, no doubt about it. He was not that accurrate, but the sheer volume that threw meant that he was going to land a lot.

I disagree with your rendition of the facts, but not your interpretation. Referee Harry Kessler did make a mistake with the knockdown. Rocky got up at a count of two. At that time, NY didn't have a mandatory eight-count rule for championship fights, but Kessler kept counting for two or three more seconds before he apparently realized his mistake, and stepped aside for the fight to continue. That is a fact. It is clearly seen on the film of the fight.

Moore said immediately after the fight, "When he got up, I let him get away." Why did Marciano get away? Archie said (1) he was surprised he knocked Marciano down; (2) he hadn't warmed up sufficiently before the fight, and (3) he didn't step-in enough with his followup punches. No mention of being cheated by Kessler. In fact, it wasn't until years later that Moore began claiming he was cheated by Kessler.

Could he have stopped Marciano had Kessler not interfered for, at best, three seconds? Rocky said after the fight that he blacked out for just a second, and his head cleared quickly. But who really knows?

There is no way that Marciano was going to be knocked out there. Let's not make up a huge "what if" where there is not one.

I am not trying to "make up a huge 'what if.'" But, in point of fact, who really knows? Only Rocky knows how close he was to losing, and he's not here to tell us. However, I agree with you that the evidence indicates Rocky wasn't close to being stopped: (1) Kessler interfered for three seconds at the most; (2) Rocky said his head was clear; (3) Rocky's legs looked solid after he got up from the KD, and he seemed alert - at least on film. And, Moore waited at least 20 years to blame Kessler for missing out on a knockout. The circumstantial evidence points to a flash knockdown (unless you are a member of the Casey Anthony jury and don't believe in circumstantial evidence . . . ).

I truly revere Moore, he's my all time favorite fighter. But that was not his night. And the knockdown was not overly serious from the camera's point of view. That Rocky claimed he was sparked for a moment, was not overly visible from the ringside witnessess. Rocky regained his composure pretty quickly.