Joe Frazier v Sonny Liston

[oogiebe]

Joe was a dipper... He'd dip down and come up with the hook like Dempsey... Joe'd either throw the hook or not... pop the jab and dip again.. Tunney hit Dempsey all the time with the straight right and the jab... Tunney wasn't big and had no power, but he hit Dempsey monotonously... It was a 10-round beating... Ken Norton was tall, but he was a dipper.

Frazier broke up his rhythm to try to fool you.. You needed good timing and a sharp delivery to get him.. Foreman loved dippers because every time he landed he hurt them... At 217 he was raw boned and the sharpest of his life... Patterson was a dipper and you could time him with straight rights or uppercuts.. Liston did both... Dippers give you their head to shoot at... If you're big, tall, and strong with great hand speed, timing, and sharpness, it's not a good night for them..

6 to 10 pounds of excess weight.... poor strength training and conditioning.... a poor training camp with poor sparring.... not enough rounds or fights the previous 2 years... a bad night's sleep... Many things can make small impairments to your speed, timing, and sharpness... You can have a bad fight like a hitter can go 0-for-5 or 5-for-5 at the plate in Baseball.

Skillful and sharp right hand counterpunchers like Schmeling, Joshua, or Holmes beats the crap out out of dippers.. Marvis Frazier was able to avoid Joe Bugner's ridiculous, slow punches, but got nailed straight away by Holmes.

Frazier was also a bobber and weaver and rhythm fighter... Which means you didn't have to be throwing punches at him to gauge his head movements... Frazier ducked right into the first knockdown shot... Foreman loaded the uppercut from well below his waist and and Smokin' ducked right into it... Bobbers and weavers supply some of you power.

Joe was already hurt before the 1st knockdown... He was hurt a minute into the fight.

In lesser words...Liston wins!

True... And just why he wins can be interesting... That is if you like the analytical side of the sport.

I do the analytical side at times. You certainly do your homework regardless of whether or not I agree. Kudos. (yeah...it's me...)

[Kalan]

I also do up coming fights... That's more interesting for your bank account... You predict the future based on the past... And if you pick and choose your spots and not bet on fighters you don't know well... You can do well.

[oogiebe]

As far as the fight goes, amongst the thousands of them one of Ali's memorable quips was " If you throw a punch at Joe Frazier, and miss, he gets offended "

On that basis I see Sonny winning because whether or not he hit as hard as Foreman, he certainly hit harder than Ali with both hands, and often enough to beat Joe. He could even cause either Yank Durham, or Eddie Futch to pull Joe out late due to him being well behind and not having the power, or the strength left to stop Sonny.

Great quote!

[Kalan]

Yeah.... And Sonny's big right hand that he still possessed in the Patterson Fights would find a home.

As well as left hooks and 45's underneath... Sonny was murderous with those at his best...

[oogiebe]

Yeah.... And Sonny's big right hand that he still possessed in the Patterson Fights would find a home.

As well as left hooks and 45's underneath... Sonny was murderous with those at his best...

Yup...just ask Floyd. Especially the second fight.

[Ambling Alp II]

If Frazier survives the early rounds, he would probably win. However, he was a slow starter and Liston was a fast stater so the first two or three rounds would be dangerous.

[oogiebe]

If Frazier survives the early rounds, he would probably win. However, he was a slow starter and Liston was a fast stater so the first two or three rounds would be dangerous.

While you may be correct, I don't think so. Frazier wouldn't survive. He is custom made for a big brute like Liston.

[Caractacus]

can anyone add anything new to this thread ?

[Caractacus]

One of the Gym's that Sonny Liston worked out at
when he was based in Philadelphia PA from 1958-1961, was
Champ's Gym at 33rd & Dauphin in North Philadelphia.
I think another was Pat's Gym.

Is it known if Yank Durham ever hanged out there ?

[Caractacus]

Just out of curiosity,has anyone here even seen a photograph
of Joe Frazier and Sonny Liston together?
Liston left Philadelphia for Denver around the same time
Frazier started boxing there.
Which gym did Liston train at in Philadelphia?
I think I saw both Willie Reddish and Milt Bailey as seconds with Yank Durham in Fraziers corner,
when Frazier fought Oscar Bonavena in 1966.
Liston had parted with both after his fight with Ali in Lewiston Maine May 1965.

another clue to the Joe Frazier-Yank Durham-Sonny Liston connection ?

[Caractacus]

Yank Durham's "mentor" in Philadelphia was Jimmy Wilson.
Jimmy Wilson had been a trainer of Sonny Liston's
when Liston was sent to train in Philadelphia in 1957/1958 under management of Pepe Barone
(after serving 9 months in a workhouse in St.Louis).
When Jimmy Wilson died isuddenly n October 1958 ,Willie Reddish took over and became Liston's trainer.
all those guys had ties to "Blinky" Polermo,so be my guess why Yank Durham stayed apart.