BoxRec

You're a broken record about how shot he was, yet you have no problem with him rebounding from the nonsensical five knockdowns to dominate the rest of the fight? Stop embarrassing yourself. Michael Dokes was not George Foreman.

You're far too emotional over this computer and it's silly little analysis.

Il Duce wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:You're far too emotional over this computer and it's silly little analysis.

Then, maybe nobody should have added to this 'silly thread title', Joe Frazier fighting the 1980's.

Should stick to his 'real accomplishments', such as winning the Greatest Fight of All-Time,
winning the Gold Medal at the 1964 Olympics, and recognized as the Heavyweight Champion of
the World for 5-Years.....

No, the thread is fine. Running fights through a computer is fine, I play Title Bout all the time. Fervently defending something as stupid as Dokes dropping Frazier five times for over a page is flat out bizarre. Especially when you try and back it up with gems like, "Ron Stander wobbled him momentarily!"

I'm confused by the replies in this thread. We're talking about what would have happened if Joe Frazier would've been born later in life and would've been in his peak at say 1978 to what might have happened later from that point forward. I hope I got that right. Not how Frazier would've handled 80's heavies in real-life if those fight would have been made.

Duce proposed Michael Dokes would've floored a Joe Frazier four or five years forward from his prime after fighting a tougher grade of challengers than he actually did in his real life reign. Saad took offense and there was some bickering back and forth about whether that was a "crazy" idea or not.

I think Frazier had a very short physical prime. Not sure why, as I thought he was a hard trainer and pretty serious about his career. Maybe it was just natural physical deterioration due to his hypertension/high blood pressure?

The idea that Frazier would have deteriorated over the span of four or five years after winning the title doesn't seem that far-fetched to me and that Michael Dokes of 1982 could've done some damage to him seems reasonable.

The 1980 version of Dokes had serious power. He bounced my hero, Roughhouse Fischer, off the canvas time and again on the Ali-Holmes undercard and Fischer was the toughest, hardest-chinned fighter I knew at the time. He said afterwards that Dokes was the only fighter who ever truly hurt him and was scary fast and powerful.

It might be a stretch to see Dokes running neck and neck with the prime Frazier from the Ellis and Ali fights, but is it really that much of a stretch to see him doing it with Joe on the downhill slope?

It's an outlandish stretch to see Dokes dropping Frazier five times.I could see him sticking and moving his way to a decision if Joe was that diminished. The question I posed him, that he ignored, was that if Joe was shot enough to go down five times, how did he dominate the last ten rounds of the fight. If he was so old and feeble that he couldn't stand up to anything Dokes threw for the first fifteen minutes, the fight should be over.

He had a draw with Dokes 3 years later in this fantasy. What does that tell you? All I did was say no way in hell Dokes is dropping Joe 5 times. Il Douche is the one that took offense to that assault on his beloved computer. Like I said, I love that kind of stuff but I don't argue the results past all logic.

His opinion bothers you that much that you're calling him "Il Douche"? Seriously?

Dart340 wrote:His opinion bothers you that much that you're calling him "Il Douche"? Seriously?

Actually that was an error. My wisdom teeth are killing me and I had some pain meds this morning and I always think that when I see his name.

He can think whatever he wants, outlandish as it may be.

Il Duce wrote:Actually there was a 6th-Knockdown that Michael Dokes registered on Smokin Joe,,,,,,,

But Referee Tony Perez was too busy sipping a Banana Daquiri in the corner, and didn't score it as such.

They are quite refreshing.......... DD

After bout comments.

Michael Dokes, 'We had heard that Joe was fighting off his back heels, and was vulnerable to short quick
punches on the chin, instead of the big looping punches. I saw the opening, and I fired a quick one. I was
suprised as anybody on how fast he went down and got back up. I kept hitting him with those short quick
rights hands, that travelled only 12", and he kept going down. But he proved he was a 'man', and kept getting
back up. He was my idol, and still is.'

Joe Frazier, 'The kid is good, but I still thought I won. Forget about the knockdowns, they don't mean nothing.
You go down and bounce right back up, that's why they call them 'flash-knockdowns'. After the 6th Round, the
kid had nothing and I won every round after that. And in the last round, 10-more seconds and he would have been
layed out in the 5th Row. I don't feel bad about the Knockdowns, its the decision that I'm upset about.'

Ringside Reporter 'Saad-Off-The-Deck'. 'I wouldn't have believed it with my own eyes. But Smokin Joe was decked
5-Times. I had heard he was getting a little too comfortable. And rumors were flying around that he was fighting
off his heels, and was rocking-and-teetering when hit by his sparring partner Leroy Diggs. It's true, FIVE.'

Il Duce wrote:Don't despair Smokin Joe did return with an impressive 'KO' over Percell 'Magic Davis in June 1983.

Fomer 2-Time Heavyweight Champion 'Smokin Joe' Frazier made his return last night with a
TKO 5 victory over Detroit Heavyweight - 21 year-old - Percell 'Magic' Davis.

The 29 1/2 year Frazier, at a tight-and trim 207 lbs. took a few rounds to get warmed up, before
staggering the 6' 3" 230 lb. Detroit Bomber in Round 4 with several left hooks to the chin. Joe
finished his night's work in Round 5, when he dropped the younger fighter with his famed
'Philly Fist'. Davis got to his feet, but was in condition to continue and the bout was stopped
at 1:03 of Round 5 by way of a TKO.

There was concern that 'Smokin Joe' may have 'chin problems, and that the 6' 3" 230 lb. Davis
with a record of 15-2-0 (11 KO's) would be too big for the small-ish former 2-Time Champion.

Frazier looked a bit stiff in Rounds 1 and 2, as the Detroit Heavyweight was able to back him up
while landing clubbing right hands to Joe' head. But in Round 3, Joe started to warm up, and landed
several hard hooks to the body that stated to bring Davis' hands down. In Round 4, Joe was running
on all gears, and his famed left hand started to do damage as Davis' looked to be on shaky pins after
absorbing several hard punches to the chin. A hard left hook near the end of the Round staggered
Davis who had no clue on how to tie up 'Smokin Joe'. From there, Frazier landed several more
hard punches, before Davis was saved by the bell, only to be hammered in the next round.

Joe Frazier, 'The hammer is back. And look at my thin waist, I'm back down to 207 lbs. where I should
be. I feel quicker and stronger at this weight. I was too heavy (218 lbs.) when I fought Dokes.'

Percell Davis, 'They told me his chin was gone. So I decided to try and take him out early, instead
of fighting with a controlled style which is where I'm at my best. I made a mistake, and Joe made
me pay for it. He can still take a hard shot. I landed a couple of good right hands on his head,
and he just smiled at me.'

All the bickering has become pure theoretical nonsense. If you arbitrarily age a fighter, he could lose to anyone. No one believes Floyd Patterson would defeat Joe Louis, but if you magically made the Brown Bomber, say 41-years-old, then he probably loses to a late 1950s-early 1960s Patterson. So what? It means nothing. Match them in their primes. It's all that matters.

SenorPipino wrote:All the bickering has become pure theoretical nonsense. If you arbitrarily age a fighter, he could lose to anyone. No one believes Floyd Patterson would defeat Joe Louis, but if you magically made the Brown Bomber, say 41-years-old, then he probably loses to a late 1950s-early 1960s Patterson. So what? It means nothing. Match them in their primes. It's all that matters.

"Match them in their primes. It's all that matters." SenorPipino


Amen.

What is the point of discussing a 38 year old Frazier fighting some nobody that he would have destroyed in his prime?

yancey wrote:

SenorPipino wrote:All the bickering has become pure theoretical nonsense. If you arbitrarily age a fighter, he could lose to anyone. No one believes Floyd Patterson would defeat Joe Louis, but if you magically made the Brown Bomber, say 41-years-old, then he probably loses to a late 1950s-early 1960s Patterson. So what? It means nothing. Match them in their primes. It's all that matters.

"Match them in their primes. It's all that matters." SenorPipino


Amen.

What is the point of discussing a 38 year old Frazier fighting some nobody that he would have destroyed in his prime?

I don't care when you match them, Dokes is only flooring Frazier 5 times in one mans wet dreams.

Il Duce wrote:I heard some guy dropped Joe Frazier '6-Times' in a fight, and in only 'Two-Rounds'.

So, it could be done........ :idea:

Who was that? Ron Stander?

Il Duce wrote:No,,,

The very talented............Terry Daniels.

Oh Yeah,,,,,,,he was more worthy than Danny McAlinden - who Joe didn't want to fight in Ireland or the United Kingdom
in late-1971.

Good one, not quite as funny as your stance on Dokes/Frazier. But funny all the same. You should go back to informative posts about obscure fights, the shitting on Frazier thing just makes you look like an ass.

Keep on shitting on the legend. It's sad you don't have anything better to do.

Il Duce wrote:But, how do you determine 'Prime'.

Joe Louis, who was a wrecking machine got battered and KO'd by an old German Heavyweight,
who had no movement left - and had virtually no left hand anymore.

Joe Frazier who was another wrecking machine, who was also experienced - had no clue on how
to defend against George Foreman. Losing is one thing, but getting demolished is another.

Floyd Patterson, avoided every Top Heavyweight fighter in the late-50's - and he wouldn't fight
Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson at all costs.

I used to have the theory that, on the day someone won the championship, nobody could have beaten that version of that guy. But I don't hold on to that as much as I used to. You mention both Schmeling and Louis, for my money the best Schmeling ever was, was in 1936 when he defeated Uzcudun and then made a previously invincible (or so it seemed at the time) Joe Louis look like an amateur and was being called the uncrowned champion of the world, and was robbed of regaining the title when Braddock and company dodged him to fight Louis instead. Louis on the other hand, his best was in 1938, when he demolished Schmeling in one round. Arguably no one has ever seen a prime fighter defeat another prime or around his prime fighter in such devestating fashion, unless you count Foreman/Frazier. You also mention Patterson, and he is the only heavyweight I can point to who was better than he was when he was world champion, the pinnacle of his greatness however is harder to determine cus those wins after the reign was over were hard fought and bitter victories, but they were against men with better resumes than anyone else he fought previously. Then you got guys like Walcott or Lewis, who only got better and better as they got older. Its not an exact science.

Il Duce wrote:You're out of line,,,,,,,

Smokin Joe was one of the best, and a Super Great.

It's nothing more than a guess on what would have happened had Smokin Joe competed in the 1980's,
where the Heavyweights were bigger and stronger.

If Joe was born in January 1954 instead of January 1944 - he clearly would have had a more difficult
road-to-hoe in the 1980's. Nobody would have bought Title Defenses against the likes of Terry Daniels
and Ron Stander types, not with the group that was in the Top 10. Maybe he could have slid in a
Lorenzo Zanon, Alfredo Evangelista and/or a Gordie Racette type, but that was about it on the 'easy opponent' list,
unless it was a completely shot Muhammad Ali in 1979/1980.

While I dont rank Frazier that high, I do think he would have beaten a large group of the 1980s, though its a very underated era. The guys were great talents, and yes were bigger and stronger, but they were also inconsistant as eff all. Dokes had so much talent in his pinky finger that he could have been easily undisputed champion, but he pissed it all away and for what? Cocaine, booze, and bitches. In alot of ways the same thing happened to Weaver, Tate, Page, etc. Only Coetzee was a man given to be a consistant threat in the division, after all he was ranked in the top three since 1979 and remained there until the mid 1980s. Witherspoon would have been a threat to Frazier, and so would Holmes and Tyson, but outside of those guys, lets face it Frazier would have become a champion, if not the man in the 1980s, if even for a brief time. WHo knows maybe he would have been like Witherspoon and became a 2x, or even a 3x heavyweight champion.

joe was a great in the ring - no question - but he didnt last long in Kraftwerk, the innovative german electro music boffs. allegedly frazier tried out for the band after visiting cologne in 1988 (he was trying get a fight with the long retired jurgen blin) and had learnt a few deft keyboard moves. Ralph Hutter was a big boxing fan and invited smokin joe, whom he had met a few times, to a recording session. they laid a rhythm track down and joe was asked by Hutter to "just fittel arount oontil you fint a goot meloty". this joe did....for 3 hours!!! take after take he tried increasingly ridiculous tunes until it was clear that Florian Schneider - Kraftwerks main man - was scheming a way of getting the ex-champ out of the studio. with joe plink-plonking away, Florian saw his chance; the band were using a popular sampler, the AKIA 1500, throughout the recording and Florian got a marker pen and cleverly changed the word AKAI to ALI. he then asked joe that they were going to use the sampler as it was recognised as "zee greatest zampler in za history ov za world" - hearing this and spotting the reference to his old and hated rival, joe flipped!! he drew back his arm and landed his famous left hook right in the front grill of the sampler, smashing the machine to worthless bits and then stormed out of the studio into the rainy cologne evening. Schneider was heard to say "zat iss a small price to pay for joe's getting back on za boxing comeback trail." Frazier never spoke to Ralph Hutter again.

Il Duce wrote:But, how do you determine 'Prime'.

Joe Louis, who was a wrecking machine got battered and KO'd by an old German Heavyweight,
who had no movement left - and had virtually no left hand anymore.

Joe Frazier who was another wrecking machine, who was also experienced - had no clue on how
to defend against George Foreman. Losing is one thing, but getting demolished is another.

Floyd Patterson, avoided every Top Heavyweight fighter in the late-50's - and he wouldn't fight
Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson at all costs.

You determine prime by gut instinct and logic. There's no exact formula. Louis wasn't yet in his prime when he lost to Schmeling. Young and physically gifted, but still lacking the smarts and experience that would come. You earlier said Frazier was in his prime from 1968-70, so by your own analysis, he was past his best days when demolished by Foreman. But the Frazier of 68-70 would still have been beaten easily by 1973 Foreman. Here it wasn't a matter of primes, it was a matter of style. George had too many physical advantages no matter what year Frazier fought him.

SenorPipino wrote:

Il Duce wrote:But, how do you determine 'Prime'.

Joe Louis, who was a wrecking machine got battered and KO'd by an old German Heavyweight,
who had no movement left - and had virtually no left hand anymore.

Joe Frazier who was another wrecking machine, who was also experienced - had no clue on how
to defend against George Foreman. Losing is one thing, but getting demolished is another.

Floyd Patterson, avoided every Top Heavyweight fighter in the late-50's - and he wouldn't fight
Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson at all costs.

You determine prime by gut instinct and logic. There's no exact formula. Louis wasn't yet in his prime when he lost to Schmeling. Young and physically gifted, but still lacking the smarts and experience that would come. You earlier said Frazier was in his prime from 1968-70, so by your own analysis, he was past his best days when demolished by Foreman. But the Frazier of 68-70 would still have been beaten easily by 1973 Foreman. Here it wasn't a matter of primes, it was a matter of style. George had too many physical advantages no matter what year Frazier fought him.

Evidently Michael Dokes possessed that same murderous power.

misterpunch wrote:joe was a great in the ring - no question - but he didnt last long in Kraftwerk, the innovative german electro music boffs. allegedly frazier tried out for the band after visiting cologne in 1988 (he was trying get a fight with the long retired jurgen blin) and had learnt a few deft keyboard moves. Ralph Hutter was a big boxing fan and invited smokin joe, whom he had met a few times, to a recording session. they laid a rhythm track down and joe was asked by Hutter to "just fittel arount oontil you fint a goot meloty". this joe did....for 3 hours!!! take after take he tried increasingly ridiculous tunes until it was clear that Florian Schneider - Kraftwerks main man - was scheming a way of getting the ex-champ out of the studio. with joe plink-plonking away, Florian saw his chance; the band were using a popular sampler, the AKIA 1500, throughout the recording and Florian got a marker pen and cleverly changed the word AKAI to ALI. he then asked joe that they were going to use the sampler as it was recognised as "zee greatest zampler in za history ov za world" - hearing this and spotting the reference to his old and hated rival, joe flipped!! he drew back his arm and landed his famous left hook right in the front grill of the sampler, smashing the machine to worthless bits and then stormed out of the studio into the rainy cologne evening. Schneider was heard to say "zat iss a small price to pay for joe's getting back on za boxing comeback trail." Frazier never spoke to Ralph Hutter again.

Just wanted to show some appreciation for this post.

orbtastic wrote:

misterpunch wrote:joe was a great in the ring - no question - but he didnt last long in Kraftwerk, the innovative german electro music boffs. allegedly frazier tried out for the band after visiting cologne in 1988 (he was trying get a fight with the long retired jurgen blin) and had learnt a few deft keyboard moves. Ralph Hutter was a big boxing fan and invited smokin joe, whom he had met a few times, to a recording session. they laid a rhythm track down and joe was asked by Hutter to "just fittel arount oontil you fint a goot meloty". this joe did....for 3 hours!!! take after take he tried increasingly ridiculous tunes until it was clear that Florian Schneider - Kraftwerks main man - was scheming a way of getting the ex-champ out of the studio. with joe plink-plonking away, Florian saw his chance; the band were using a popular sampler, the AKIA 1500, throughout the recording and Florian got a marker pen and cleverly changed the word AKAI to ALI. he then asked joe that they were going to use the sampler as it was recognised as "zee greatest zampler in za history ov za world" - hearing this and spotting the reference to his old and hated rival, joe flipped!! he drew back his arm and landed his famous left hook right in the front grill of the sampler, smashing the machine to worthless bits and then stormed out of the studio into the rainy cologne evening. Schneider was heard to say "zat iss a small price to pay for joe's getting back on za boxing comeback trail." Frazier never spoke to Ralph Hutter again.

Just wanted to show some appreciation for this post.

ha, x2

Why are we all wasting time? Why don't we just move on to the stimulating debate "What if Tony Tubbs was born exactly 12 1/2 years later?" I'm certain everyone would agree, including computers, that TNT would demolish an aging Mike Tyson in 2 rounds (payback is a bitch) and then drop Lennox Lewis, oh maybe 5 times, to win the heavyweight title. Can anyone possibly dispute this?

thanks orb

Il Duce wrote:In my opinion,

Joe Frazier was a 'better' fighter during 1968 thru 1970, as he was quicker in the ring. But his 'prime'
could be considered from 1968 thru 1973, if you use the '5-Year Formula' (Age 24 thru 29).

As for Michael Dokes dropping Joe, the knockdowns never produced a knockout, just flash knockdowns,
as a result of a quick crisp punches on a poorly balanced Joe.

Joe was never the same, after he fractured his right ankle in April 1970 (Age 26).

You're an unbelievable retard, his balance evidently was good enough to dominate the last ten rounds. Did you write this program? I've never seen a man pretend that a computer read out is factual. Get some help.

That reply definitely justifies the moniker. Starting slow and being dropped 5 times in the first 5 rounds isn't nearly the same thing. And Dokes would be on his toes, not backing Joe up. You get dumber by the second.