BoxRec

hey Il Duce,
what do you know about Cleve Williams early life(Griffin GA). and the very early part of his professional boxing career?
I have a few assorted facts gleamed from a number of newspaper articles mainly,but nothing definative.
Usually when a fighter gets a shot at the heavyweight title the news reporters
go in to some detail at least of how he got into that position.
However in Williams case most of the newspaper copy in November 1966
was concerning his incident with the Texas Highway Patrol officer
and how Williams miracilously even came back to box(
he was down to 155 lbs-161 lbs in some sources following the surgeries.

I read where his uncle had him behind a plow at age 8
behind a black mule named"Mary" on the farm in Griffin Georgia.
(that little snippet I got from Best Sports Stories ,1967 Edition,
but I wasnt able to read the full account at google books due to some copyright reasons)
But that would have been around 1942 ,I think a reason for that may have been because most of the able bodied men in the area(like all areas in the USA at the time)were either going overseas or stationed at the various Army camps and forts across the USA during the onset of WWII.

I also read somewhere that his first"pro" record was 4-1-1(4 KO's),
he was 182 lbs at 14-15 years of age.
but was barred by the Georgia Boxing commision when they found out his age.which makes me think maybe he was fighting under an alias then.
perhaps as"Earl Mack"?Thats the name he fought when he went AWOL from Camp Jackson SC in 1955.
Mack was the last time of his biological father.

and of course in the days before he drifted down to Tampa Florida
Cleve Willaims had worked at a Pulpwood mill
for an undetermined period of time where he development the ruminations
and prototype of his
"Pulpwood Punch",which was an earlier version of
the more well known Donovan Razor Ruddock's
"the Smash",whichwas sort of a combination half uppercut,half left hook".

Fun Fact # 19

Cleveland Williams got his professional boxing start(as an adult) in1951
as a sparring partner to Tampa light-Heavyweight Danny Nardico,
(who was also managed by Lou Viscusi and coached and trained by Bill Gore)

and on a related note.
from the July.18.1953 issue of JET magazine.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kUIDAA ... pg=PA64&dq

It sounds like they may have been extra slow in paying it out.
Sort of reminds me of a lyric I heard on the radio earlier today.
The Taxman by the Beatles.
"Should five percent appear too small.
Be Thankful i dont take it all"

Speaking of Tampa Florida.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafficante_crime_family

I wonder if Cleveland Williams had ever sparred with Bob Foster
when Lou Viscusi managed him and Bill Gore trained him in the early 1970's.
After the title fight with Ali Novemeber 1966,Williams was broke
and was washing dishes in 1967 until Lou Viscusi found him some boxing matches to help him out finacially at least.

I also noticed that Cleveland Williams had fought 2 fights as preliminaries to
Ron Lyles fight and also Duane Bobick had fought at least once with both of them.Did Cleveland williams try to become part of Bill Daniels Denver Colorado stable or hired as a sparring partner for Lyle or Duane Bobick in 1972?

Big Cat fun filled Fact #209

For his 14th professional fight, 12.August 1952,
Cleveland Williams fought
Candy McDaniels of Jacksonville Florida.
ring record from 1947-1952,9-1-1,
Candy McDaniels is probably best known to boxing fans for doing a
five round exhibition
with Joe Louis in Orlando Florida 8.February.1950.
here is the fun filled fact part.

-Candy McDaniels was the maternal uncle of NBA Star
Darryl Dawkins aka Chocolate Thunder.
(who used to come over to the Dawkin's household in Orlando when they were younger and try and teach them how to box.
(source CHOCOLATE THUNDER the autobiography of Darryl Dawkins)

Keene Simmons,perhaps better known as a sparring partner
for Rocky Marciano.
It was around this time that Lou Viscusi and the fans in Tampa
had visions of Cleve Williams already fighting Rocky Marciano for the heavyweight championship of the world.

here is a newspaper article from 22.June.1954 about the upcoming
Satterfield vs. Williams bout,and it briefly mentions the fight with
Sylvester Jones the previous September.
It states that Jones had Williams down on the canvas
four times in the first three rounds,but Williams came back strong in the fourth,before the fight was ended suddenly after that round.
most likley it was scheduled for 6 rounds as were
the other heavyweight bouts on the undercard of Marciano vs La Starza II.

http://www.news.google.com/newspapers?i ... ,974546&dq


It sounds to me that it was cut short,because they didnt want a fight in progress when the television closed-circuit signal came on live to the various theaters across the USA.
The mystery seems to be however is why was Cleveland Williams
up in NYC and on the preliminary of a heavyweight championship fight?
Maybe he was sent up there from Tampa as a sparring partner for
Rocky Marciano or another heavyweight on the card?
(LaStarza is listed at 6 ft tall,as it would seem silly for LaStarza that have a 6 ft 3 inch sparring partner to prepare for someone who was 5 ft 10"
and fought out of a crouched.
there were several other heavyweight fights on the undercard,
maybe they were Marciano's sparring partners vs La Starza's sparring partners?

You would figure if Williams had even been in the ring with Marciano just sparring,
someone, particularly Williams would have mentioned it somewhere,
and maybe how the got "the Best"of the champ one usually hears
to at least drum up some interest in a actual bout.

There is a newspaper article from 21.January 1954
from Miami Florida reporting on the results of the
Charlie Norkus vs Danny Nardico fight.
Norkus had knocked out Nardico in round nine.
Shortly afterwards a very disappointed Lou Viscusi essentially challenged Charlie Norkus to fight Cleveland Williams next
in a nationally televised fight,and was going to contact Jim Norris and the IBF
to have it arranged.It didnt happen of course.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fF ... ,392630&dq

I wonder if Charlie Norkus jr has anything from his scrapebooks about Cleveland Williams he can share?

Il Duce wrote: I do know that Billy Gore (Manager) also handled Roy 'Cut-N-Shoot' Harris at the same time.

Roy was the 'right color' for 1958..........

Roy Harris was ranked #1 at the time, but Billy Gore would never allow Cleveland to spar with
Roy, in fear of as he said,,,,,

'Cleveland might decapitate Roy with his left hook. Then I'd be the first Manager with a
'Headless Heavyweight'.

Billy Gore also handled 'The Animal',,,,,,,,,,Dave 'Ziggy' Zyglewicz.....

im not sure if you meant never or rarely.
it does appear that Roy Harris did spar with Cleveland Williams
at least a few times.
this recent article quotes Roy Harris as saying,

"My toughest opponent and most dangerous was when I sparred with
Cleveland Williams".

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Ken/Hissner030911.htm

and here is a newspaper article from 4.December.1959
when Roy Harris was training to fight Paul Andrews.


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rL ... 1278723&dq

Big Cat Fun Filled Fact # 91

Wore a size 13 glove.

Big Cat fun filled Fact # 59

At age 13 ,began working at the Pulpwood Mill at Griffin Georgia

Ring action photo of Cleveland Wiliams vs. Ben Black(8.Feb.1966)


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cleveland-Willi ... 41724395fe



http://books.google.com/books?id=brkDAA ... pg=PA53&dq

The newspaper article you quoted gives Mel Turnbow's ring record
11-4-0 going into the fight with Cleveland Williams March 1966,
however Boxrec lists Turnbow's ring record as 6-4-0
going into it.What happened to the other 5 fights of Turnbow's?

Why is it I wonder the discrepancy in Mel Turnbow's ring record here at boxrec?
There is a newspaper article from December.7. 1970
that annouces Mel Turnbow is going to fight George Foreman,
and it lists Turnbow's record as 15-10.
BTW George Chuvalo was once asked a few years ago who were the hardest punchers he had ever faced in the ring,and Chuvalo had said,
Mike DeJohn,George Foreman and Mel Turnbow.
Sounds like Turnbow may be yet another heavyweight boxing enigma.

scroll up this page to see a rare action photo of
Cleve Williams vs Mel Turnbow.(22 March.1966)


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5_ ... 5791178&dq

As far as what little I have read so far on Mel Turnbow ,the words
"Flat-footed" and even "inept' come up.
he must have had some hypnotic quality in sparring sessions were sometimes his opponent falls asleep almost,then POW!
From the photos of Turnbow,he sort of reminds me of a past it
Joe Louis circa 1952,except Turnbow was a lot younger of course.
Also as him saying that he was giving up being a heavyweight contender
while still boxing.
I think that speaks volumes about his mental train of thought as a fighter.,because everyone knows any fighter even a club
fighter,who some day may be given the opppertunity regardless to fight
a title match,is just one punch away from being the new heavyweight champion of the world.
Which is probably an exaggeration of his style and boxing ability.
So who were the five(?) fighters in the five
boxing bouts that boxrec doesn't count?

Williams vs Turnbow on site Poster.

http://www.josportsinc.com/catalog/view.php?id=10765

A Mel Turbow bonus link...
scroll down page at link to see rare ring action photo of
Joe Frazier vs Mel Turbow(1966)


http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/t ... s-111.html

this photo is undated but by looking at his hair style,my guess its from around early 1966.

http://www.angelfire.com/games4/cubedru ... iams09.jpg

"Moore gave Williams trouble in the first four rounds
but Williams rallied to take the match with a barrage
of left-right combinations".

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=cG ... 3559717&dq

"Williams finished with strength but little zip
in his cominations to take the decision".

Il Duce wrote:
Mel Turnbow was on a National Televsion bout in one of his fights.........., but I can't remember which one.

Buster Mathis vs Mel Turbow April.30.1968(TKO7) is on one of the Buster Mathis career DVD'S.It may have been from television,
However its possible it may have also been filmed by Jimmy Jacobs at ringside
as he was hired by Peers Management to document all of Mathis's fights.

Brutu wrote:Hey Mr.Norkus,I wanted to ask if you had anything concerning
Cleveland"Big Cat" Williams in your scrapebooks that you would possibly share here.(see Big Cat..Fun Filled Facts thread at this forum).
I read where manager Lou Viscusi wanted your father to fight
Cleve Williams on National Television after your father had knocked out
Lou Viscus'si other fighter,Danny Nardico.Was wondering how close that fight may have came
to actually happening.

When 1954 came around, my father's two victories over Danny Nardico placed him into the top ten of heavies.Danny was suppose to get a shot at Marciano if he came up big against my father. Weill used my father as a feeler out for his boy, Rocky. The insiders of the heavies knew this. That's one way to get to Marciano was to fight and beat my father.
Not because my father was the gatekeeper per se, but Weill picked and choosed his opponents carefully. When my father defeated Nardico, I'm sure Williams camp might of cried "me too,me too". There was always a understanding from my father's camp headed by Ghee Laico, that Weill & Rocky will reward my father with a crack at the title if he played ball by going in against future title prospects. It all started back in Providence when my father was suppose fight LaStarza, but LaStarza s cut up in his previous fight and didnt heal in time, so my father fought Tommy Harrison instead. Some say LaStarza might have beat Rocky a few months later.



After Nardico, my father wanted Marciano himself. However in the scheme of things, Rocky had bigger fish to fry with bigger pay days. My father couldnt guarantee the $100,000 needed at the time. So to keep busy, he fought Jackson and lost on cuts in the 5th.Brion was yelling for his shot and Weill set up Norkus vs Brion II. My father stole away the fight in the 10th Rd. Then came Powell in SF. Suey Welch had pull with the Eastern boys and said Powell can draw the $100,000+ for Marciano. But Marciano wasnt too sure on Powell and sent my father in to see. Marciano checked it out himself.
After my father defeated Powell-everyone wanted a shot. I dont see Cleveland Williams name come up alot but it did later on about 1957. After Powell,my father proposed a 3-way fight competition Cockell-Norkus-Valdes with winner going to Marciano. Weill thought about it but stayed on the Ezzard Charles thing he had planned all along.

When 1954 ended, my father met with Weill and said "what gives"- I had a great year, and helped you guys all along ? (Remember-my father was to fight Rocky in 1950 before he got the title in Providence, but my father hurt his arm in training and the Rocky fought Buonvino instead, the fight was rescheduled 2 months later, but Rocky did a 30 day suspension for fighting his brother(under another name in an amatuer contest up in Maine the year prior). and that fight was cancelled.). Weill said they will eventually meet back then but no guarantee.
Weill in Jan. 1955 in a handshake said "defeat Ezz Charles and you and Rocky will meet." Rocky was on hand having punished Charles twice previously, but my father couldnt beat out Charles, and it was a up hill battle again.
Later on,Patterson then used my father a bit, and my father could fight Patterson for the title if he beat Pastrano or Moore. Going the distance wasnt enough.
But I can tell you that betwen 1954 and 1959, every heavy in the top ten try to connive a shot at the Champ in one way or another. But the entrance fee was too high for many, or if you were too good, you had to beat a spoiler, a roll my father was some what content in filling looking back in hind sight, because the Champ had you working on TV and that wasnt too bad either.

To answer your question though, nothing between Norkus and Williams were in the works, just newspaper fodder.Viscusi knew that Weill sent my father in vs. Nardico and figured that his boy Williams might see his way through to Marciano that way.
Big Cat started around 1951 I believe and my father was moving along fast ahead of him at that time.
Also, Big Cat Williams, though fighting 10 Rds by 1953, my father's people probably would consider a Williams fight a step back. If my father didnt fight him somewhere along 1954 schedule for whatever reason, there was no way he was going to fight Williams in early 1955.My father could only lose ground there. My father fought no one but Charles in 1955 and he didnt want to risk losing to anyone after the Weill handshake. All he did was train and wait his turn on Ezzard Charles. Any heavy would have done the same if told he was next up pending.

The situation would turn around 180 degrees by 1956. Williams could only lose ground if he fought my father and they probably avoided each other unless told to fight by Brenner and Norris.