BoxRec

The 1bangkid wrote:

BarryWashington wrote:We'll never know.

He was set to face Lamar Parks (good prospect) before he came up w/a positive AIDS test. Then he went and faced Gilbert Baptist (who gave in your eyes a supposed prime Hopkins a very tough fight) and blew him out in one round -- late sub or not (some thing Terry Norris (x2), Lamar Parks, Bernard Hopkins, Vincent Pettway, Gianfranco Rosi, Quincy Taylor, Laurent Boudouani could not do).

Jackson showed no signs of being "faded" before their first fight. He was only questioned as such because he couldn't KO Thomas Tate and had early rounds trouble with Ron Collins.

Also, Alfredo Asaro absolutely fvcked G-Man from a first round TKO over Nigel Benn w/his incompetence in that round (and also later in the fight allowing Benn to get away with a lot of rabbit punching).

As far as a possible fight between RJJ and G-Man. I cannot see RJJ making it to the final bell even if he stayed on his bicycle all night. G-Man used lateral movement very well, had a very nice jab (and 1-2), went to the body like a savage, was freakishly strong (especially on the inside), would destroy opponents who kept their backs against the ropes (which Roy had a habit of doing), had beyond warrior spirit, had a cast iron chin and had devastating power.

I truly believe that would have been a terrible styles match-up for RJJ, even if he was up on points in the fight, he would eventually get stopped . . brutally.

Gerald was all of the things you say but only over 6 rounds - he was fucked after that and Jones would have given him a lot of grief; McClellan was a monster hitter at middle but at supermiddle - Benn, who had been cracked in the past got through and came out on top. Benn was a massive hitter at middle but not the same at super - Jones hit very very hard and was accurate and sneaky. He'd have beaten Gearld in my view.

BarryWashington wrote:Plenty of greats have dropped decisions to nobodies early in their career (see : Carlos Monzon for example).

If you're really going to tell me that the G-Man from the Milton and Ward bouts was the same G-Man who was a titlist, then you're just in your own world.

Also you conveniently leave out that the Ward and Milton bouts were 6 & 8 rounders.

Go and re-watch the first Griffin/Jones Jr. fight, Jones Jr. gets tagged a damn good amount and puts his back against the ropes/corners WAY too much.

This is the one hypothetical that I am most certain I would have put every god damn penny in my family's account on what I think would be the correct prediction. Wish I could make this one happen more than any other.

palooka wrote:If you read about the Ralph Ward or Dennis Milton bouts then you can plainly see that Jones would have stood Gerald on his head. Griffin had beaten Toney twice and was also a fantastic amateur; the second Griffin bout also shows that Jones - when focussed; was an awesome fighter.

BarryWashington wrote:I don't care how much in the minority of that opinion I am

BarryWashington wrote:Nah, the more you watch the first Griffin/Jones Jr. fight the more obvious it becomes that G-Man would have annihilated him.

BarryWashington wrote:It's my opinion, bud.

I've seen G-Man spar w/James Toney (even rumors that G-Man dropped JT in a different sparring session than the one that is available) and Thomas Hearns.

I've watched all of RJJ & G-Man's fights.

The Eric Harding & 1st Montell Griffin fight solidify (in my mind) how G-Man would eventually stop RJJ.

RJJ was a freak of nature -- athletically speaking, but, when you really dissect his skills, they're pretty amateurish (hence his fast decline once his timing/reflexes started to go).

Just go back and watch those two fights again, watch every time RJJ gets in a clinch or has his back against the ropes. You'll see the same patterns and those are the opportunities that I believe G-Man's superior jabbing, more devastating power, superior strength (remember . . this is a guy who came into MW fights weighing 176-180), and savage like nature once his opponents had their backs against the ropes (RJJ spent way too much time w/his back against the ropes and would usually cover up and usually try to get his way out of those scenarios by doing a flashy combination - no real tie-up/clinch skills).

I'm doing my best to support my case, but, all I keep hearing is how great RJJ was in his prime and how fast he was, blah, blah, but, stylistically I'm not seeing the arguments.

Better Jab? McClellan
More Heart? McClellan
Better Speed? Jones Jr.
Better Power? McClellan
Strength? McClellan
Size/Length? McClellan
Chin/Durability? McClellan
Better In The Clinches? McClellan
Better Timing? Jones Jr.
Better Footwork? Jones Jr.
Better Stamina? Jones Jr. (then again G-Man's was never really tested, though I will give him credit for being able to make it round 10 against Benn after fighting for several rounds w/a forming blood clot in his brain)

So out of those 11 key credentials in analyzing the factors for a match-up, G-Man gets 7 out of the 11 - IMO.

BarryWashington wrote:I don't go w/underdogs I go with who I think stylistically has the best chance to win (hence why I'm tied for best percentage of picks this year thus far).

I think Nonito is going to run through Rigondeaux (huge fan of both fighters).

And yes I think Guerrero can grind out an ugly close decision.

And Roy was too Roy? Really? Have you watched the first Montell Griffin fight? Or the Eric Harding fight?

I again will say, there's no way RJJ makes it to the final bell against G-Man. RJJ could be found and he isn't going to take out Gerald and stays on the ropes way too long (which is G-Man's office) to make it to the end.

J-C wrote:

polecateddy wrote:...so if that's right, why are people taller and heavier than 60 years ago. Isn't that evolution of a type?

No, if people below a certain height we're less likely to survive into adulthood and reproduce then that would be evolution.

The reason people are on average taller now than they were 50 or 100 years ago is down to greater availability of food in childhood and improved public health.

People often assume the human race has gotten continuously taller but in actual fact height in Europe declined between Roman times and the 17th century mainly because people started moving to cities where the living conditions were so appalling. Since then height has increased again as fewer people starve in childhood. But our genetic make up is the same.

Also sports such as basketball and HW boxing accentuate this effect as they draw in people on the extremity of the height range. Because there are many more people in the world today there are also many more very tall people (like the Kilts) around.

BarryWashington wrote:It's my opinion, bud.

I've seen G-Man spar w/James Toney (even rumors that G-Man dropped JT in a different sparring session than the one that is available) and Thomas Hearns.

I've watched all of RJJ & G-Man's fights.

The Eric Harding & 1st Montell Griffin fight solidify (in my mind) how G-Man would eventually stop RJJ.

RJJ was a freak of nature -- athletically speaking, but, when you really dissect his skills, they're pretty amateurish (hence his fast decline once his timing/reflexes started to go).

Just go back and watch those two fights again, watch every time RJJ gets in a clinch or has his back against the ropes. You'll see the same patterns and those are the opportunities that I believe G-Man's superior jabbing, more devastating power, superior strength (remember . . this is a guy who came into MW fights weighing 176-180), and savage like nature once his opponents had their backs against the ropes (RJJ spent way too much time w/his back against the ropes and would usually cover up and usually try to get his way out of those scenarios by doing a flashy combination - no real tie-up/clinch skills).

I'm doing my best to support my case, but, all I keep hearing is how great RJJ was in his prime and how fast he was, blah, blah, but, stylistically I'm not seeing the arguments.

Better Jab? McClellan
More Heart? McClellan
Better Speed? Jones Jr.
Better Power? McClellan
Strength? McClellan
Size/Length? McClellan
Chin/Durability? McClellan
Better In The Clinches? McClellan
Better Timing? Jones Jr.
Better Footwork? Jones Jr.
Better Stamina? Jones Jr. (then again G-Man's was never really tested, though I will give him credit for being able to make it round 10 against Benn after fighting for several rounds w/a forming blood clot in his brain)

So out of those 11 key credentials in analyzing the factors for a match-up, G-Man gets 7 out of the 11 - IMO.

diddy wrote:You European windbags crack me up. The initial post simply asked where Jones would fall in the pantheon of all time fighters had he retired at the first sign of slippage. If you want to tear the guy down, be my guest, it's your right but answer the damn question as it was posed in its original form.

diddy wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Just look at the excuses for Jones. That’s all this thread is…excuse after excuse…

There are more tears than the last 5 minutes of an episode of “Lassie”.

Start a thread about Robinson or Armstrong or Charles or Hagler or Leonard and there are no excuses needed. That’s all you need to know.

When addressing Jones' prime the excuses are more on the side of the anti-Roy side than the pro-Roy side. "Uh he didn't fight Rochiggiani", "Uh he didn't fight Michaelzewski". Do you know ridiculous this crap sounds? You all know what wouldve happened in these fights. It sounds silly. Really silly. If you want to say he didnt fight in the Hagler era - fine. He can't help when he's born. And spare me the Calzaghe crap. Jones was the lineal champ of the world spanning divisions. JC was a relative nobody fighting domestically. It wasn't Jones' responsibility to go see an unknown in his backyard. It was JC's responsibility to come to the States to chase the big fights. Instead he chose to wait til Roy was 40 and shot. Then he comes to the States.

diddy wrote:Was having a convo with some people today about where they think Jones would've fallen in the all-time boxing pantheon had he retired after winning the Heavyweight strap? I said top 5 all-time. One guy agreed. One didnt but he's kind of a young guy who only remembers seeing the tail end of Jones' greatness as he spiraled into a faded shell.

Even had Roy gone out after the first controversial win over Tarver, he would still be, for me, Top 5 all-time. It was that fight that we all saw the slippage. The fading reflexes, the lead legs, etc. It's really too bad Roy didnt see what we all saw. And he probably did see it, but didnt care, and only cared about more paydays. It's too bad. Going to heavyweight should've been it for him. He did anything and everything his body could do. Once he dropped back down in weight after putting on all those lbs, his body clock was accelerated and for a guy who relied almost completely on athletic ability, accelerating the clock is what took a couple more prime years off his shelf life.

Roy truly was the Allen Iverson of his generation. Just a better athlete than everyone else, on another planet, but once the physical gifts left his body - it was over.

I would still place Roy as top 10-15 of all-time even with having gone on to soil his reputation into his 40's, but there's no doubt in my mind he was a top 3-5 GOAT had he gotten the hell out after the Ruiz fight.

Owl wrote:The average height of all humans on earth as a planetary average has increased. Fact. This an evolution. Of course it it caused by the availability of food and the such, but it is an evolution of the human species.

BarryWashington wrote:We'll never know.

He was set to face Lamar Parks (good prospect) before he came up w/a positive AIDS test. Then he went and faced Gilbert Baptist (who gave in your eyes a supposed prime Hopkins a very tough fight) and blew him out in one round -- late sub or not (some thing Terry Norris (x2), Lamar Parks, Bernard Hopkins, Vincent Pettway, Gianfranco Rosi, Quincy Taylor, Laurent Boudouani could not do).

Jackson showed no signs of being "faded" before their first fight. He was only questioned as such because he couldn't KO Thomas Tate and had early rounds trouble with Ron Collins.

Also, Alfredo Asaro absolutely fvcked G-Man from a first round TKO over Nigel Benn w/his incompetence in that round (and also later in the fight allowing Benn to get away with a lot of rabbit punching).

As far as a possible fight between RJJ and G-Man. I cannot see RJJ making it to the final bell even if he stayed on his bicycle all night. G-Man used lateral movement very well, had a very nice jab (and 1-2), went to the body like a savage, was freakishly strong (especially on the inside), would destroy opponents who kept their backs against the ropes (which Roy had a habit of doing), had beyond warrior spirit, had a cast iron chin and had devastating power.

I truly believe that would have been a terrible styles match-up for RJJ, even if he was up on points in the fight, he would eventually get stopped . . brutally.

Tommyk91 wrote:

diddy wrote:Was having a convo with some people today about where they think Jones would've fallen in the all-time boxing pantheon had he retired after winning the Heavyweight strap? I said top 5 all-time. One guy agreed. One didnt but he's kind of a young guy who only remembers seeing the tail end of Jones' greatness as he spiraled into a faded shell.

Even had Roy gone out after the first controversial win over Tarver, he would still be, for me, Top 5 all-time. It was that fight that we all saw the slippage. The fading reflexes, the lead legs, etc. It's really too bad Roy didnt see what we all saw. And he probably did see it, but didnt care, and only cared about more paydays. It's too bad. Going to heavyweight should've been it for him. He did anything and everything his body could do. Once he dropped back down in weight after putting on all those lbs, his body clock was accelerated and for a guy who relied almost completely on athletic ability, accelerating the clock is what took a couple more prime years off his shelf life.

Roy truly was the Allen Iverson of his generation. Just a better athlete than everyone else, on another planet, but once the physical gifts left his body - it was over.

I would still place Roy as top 10-15 of all-time even with having gone on to soil his reputation into his 40's, but there's no doubt in my mind he was a top 3-5 GOAT had he gotten the hell out after the Ruiz fight.

This is an interesting debate, in my opinion Jones was more skilled than people give credit for, yes his athleticism did allow him to get away with a lot of bad habits and mistakes. However, if you look at the way he handled James Toney so effortlessly, you see a tremendous skill set, being able to time Toney and avoid the counters was amazing. On ability, Jones might be the best ever to lace up a pair of gloves.

However, what lets Jones down, isn't the losses after Tarver, those losses don't mean much. What lets Jones down, is the fact that he didn't go seeking the big fights in his prime, Roy should have fought Michael Nunn, Steve Collins, Frankie Liles, Darius Michalczewski and Nigel Benn. Those wins would have been huge for his legacy. As it stands, I would say Jones should feature in anyone's top 30 list, somewhere between 21-30