BoxRec

It will have been 'sub-edited' by Il Dunce.

Like the time he mangled that S.I. article and had Harold MacMillan on the byline.

The pain you feel, the indignation you must suffer at this man's very existence.

Gentleman, can we find this deserving young Duce a support group out there?

Ali, has done things with his life that have deeply wounded our fellow contributor.

The pain the Il'ster must endure, and feels compelled to share with the rest of us is clearly unimaginable.

Can someone, anyone be of assistance? To lighten his load, to help him through his days.

A government program perhaps?

ThatOne wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

ThatOne wrote:If only the granner would return...

He'd be in his element.

One openly racist cheerleader supported by a couple of dinosaurs who yearn for the good old days when certain people knew their place.

That post where granberry was extolling the value of the various Jim Crow laws would play better in here these days than it did a couple of years back when he was at the peak of his rabble rousing.

I once provided an anecdote where Muhammad Ali was driving through Florida with Miami Herald columnist, Edwin Pope, He goes way back with the GOAT. I e-mailed him when Ali came out and asked him he was going to see it and write about it. He e-mailed me back and said "I lived it." Anyway, he was traveling through northern Florida in the early 60s with Clay/Ali and his crew and they wanted to get something to eat. The black "crew'" was refused service and Pope had to bring sandwiches to the car.

BTW, if you e-mail him about the incident he'll get a chuckle and probably respond.

So folks on BoxBuzz will know which posters have integrity. Looks like I don't have ro e-mail Mr. Pope:



MADISON DAVIS LACY: To change tone now, take me to Yulee, Florida. Tell me that story.
EDWIN POPE: That bus ride had one very unpleasant moment. The first night we were out, ah, we stopped at little place called Yulee, Y-U-L-E-E, Florida, up in north Florida and it's really back in the country. They had to pipe daylight in there; it'd take you a week to get a postcard out there. Ah, Ali didn't wanna stop. Everybody else wanted to stop, to get some food. Ali said, "I don't wanna to stop till we get through Georgia. We want to get his bus through Georgia because I don't want anybody, having to, ah, fool with any Ku Klux Klanmen[SIC], Klansmen or any, as he put it, any Georgia Baptist." Ah, and nonetheless, they pulled into this little, ah, roadside stand in Yulee, Florida about 11:30 at night and Drew Brown, the assistant trainer they called Bundini Brown, went in to try to get some food to take with us. And the proprietor, um, refused Bundini. He said, "You have to go around to the window outside." Well, Bundini, he got very upset about it. George Plimpton, ah, stepped up and said, ah, and so did, ah, Bud Collins and so did I, ah, stepped up and asked if, how they had the right to do this, wasn't this the United States? And, ah, this man says, "No, this is not the United States." And, ah, he may have had a point there. I think it wasn't a part of the United States at the time and may not be yet for that matter. In any case, Bundini got back on the bus and he was crying, he was sobbing, ah, in terrible shape. And Ali says, "I told you not to do that. I told you, you're in the wrong part of the country to go in and, for a Black person to go in and try to order food." He says, "I don't have any damn sympathy for you, whatever." And he took, picked up his pillow and started beating him over the head with it, half in jest, half seriously. It was a very touching moment though. Bundini was weeping and talking about having been in the service and fought for his country and was denied, ah, just the most basic human right. And Ali, seeming in a wisdom far beyond his years, discerning even advan- in advance, the treatment that he knew Bundini would get, and warning him and berating him for trying to defy convention at that time.
MADISON DAVIS LACY: We'll roll out.

http://digital.wustl.edu/e/eii/eiiweb/p ... npope.html

Oh, didn't Duce Ali say was intellectually dull...

MADISON DAVIS LACY: All right now, describe the fight, as you remember it.
EDWIN POPE: Fights are hard to describe because they, they happen so fast. They're unlike anything else in sports. The only thing you get a, a real sports writer gets nervous ab- at in sports is a big championship fight. You don't get nervous at the World series, you don't get nervous at the Super Bowl, you don't get nervous at the Masters' Golf, you don't get nervous at Wimbledon. The only thing you get nervous at would be the Kentucky Derby that much, but a big fight where sometimes you really think you might have a heart attack. And, that night I remember I was completely calm because I saw no likelihood of anything untoward happening. And I sensed this lack of tension all the way down, ah, the press row. Whereas in so many other fights, Patterson, Johannson, ah, many, many other fights, you'd feel almost as though you were about to faint before the opening bell because unlike a football game, there were no parameters. There's no nine innings or four quarters. It can be over just like that. But that night, ah, when Cassius Clay who'd just become Muhammad Ali, went in against Sonny Liston, I didn't feel any tension at all with the writers. But as the fight went on, Clay came out dancing and jabbing and it became apparent pretty soon that Liston had his hands full. I think Liston might have been the last person to realize it. Then Cassius Clay tried to quit in about the 4th or 5th round after getting some sort foreign substance in his eyes, probably some, ah, grease that, ah, had come off of Sonny Liston's eyebrows and around his mouth that his trainer had put on. Ah, Cassius Clay tried to stop right here and his trainer Angelo Dundee said, "Look big boy, this is for the championship. Get back in there." Ah, he didn't push him out there as, as people have reported, but he did, ah, berate him until Clay went on back out there. Then Clay took command of the fight and, ah, Sonny Liston quit after the 7th round just before the 8th round I believe, started sitting in his corner, holding his shoulder, saying he couldn't lift his shoulder, um, everyone was absolutely electrified, stunned, stunned. I remember I had a s- I saw a picture later of it and I had a, a cigarette just dangling from my lips, that obviously I had started to light and I was so, ah, shocked when it was all over and Cassius Clay went leaping up into the air, that I never even lit the cigarette. I was just standing there staring in stupefaction at this scene and then Cassius Clay grabs Bundini Brown, his, one of his trainers and he grabs Angelo Dundee then, ah, grabs his, another one of his old trainers, Louis Sarea, and he's leaping up and down hysterically. He runs over in front of the reporters, "I told you. I told you I was going to win. You didn't believe me. I'm the greatest. I'm gorgeous. See? see? see what I am? I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest." And we were just sitting there slack jawed and, ah, there was Liston. Nobody ever figured out whether he, ah, really had a hurt shoulder, whether, some people thought the fight was fixed. I never felt that way. But it was a stunner.

MADISON DAVIS LACY: Tell me how you came to know Clay during that bus trip that you took.
EDWIN POPE: For the second, ah, Ali-Liston fight which was scheduled for Boston, ah, about a year after Ali first dethroned Liston, Ali's people had this idea that it would help promote the fight to, for him to drive his own bus all the way from Miami to a little place called Chicopee Falls, Massachusetts where he would train. Well, little did we realize that, ah, Ali was going to actually drive the bus. So we went over to his house in northwest Miami. There were four White writers-myself, George Plimpton, Bud Collins of the Boston Globe and Mort Schernick of Sports Illustrated and, ah, the rest of them were sparring partners, trainers, ah, Jimmy Ellis, later to become champion was along. So we were all piled on the bus with a lot of fried chicken and, ah, soda pop and took off and Clay is behind the bus and, behind the wheel of the bus and had this terribly disconcerting habit of, while he was driving along 70 miles an hour, peering around to address everyone on the bus without looking at the highway. And everybody was constantly on the edge of their seats. Also, he would lean out the winder[SIC], the window at every opportunity and wave to people and announce that, ah, he'd say, "I'm Muhammad Ali. I'm the greatest and I'm driving this bus up to Chicopee Falls, Massachusetts where I'm going to kill that mean old Sonny Liston again. I'm going to take the gorilla's head away from him and bash him in it, bash him in the head with it." Ah, on that bus trip, I gathered a different perception of Muhammad Ali. Up until then I had saw- seen him as sort of a hostile, somewhat bristling person when you would try to approach him. On that trip it became very apparent that he was basically, enormously, sweet natured, very compassionate, very friendly, ah, altogether taken up with his new role as a Muslim. Ah, he would make a lot of jokes about everything but being a Muslim. We had a lot of things go wrong on that trip. The bus broke down outside of Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Ah, he had to hire another bus. Ah, I recall as we drove away in the new bus with the old bus sitting there and pulled over to the side of the road with the, the, ah, tires caught on fire. And Ali leaned out the window and said, "Good-bye little red bus. I was too good for a little bus like you anyway." Um, but several of the fighters got sick on the road. We never stopped to stay in a hotel or anything. We just went straight from Miami to right outside of Boston for four days, and when we got there, none of us had bathed in four days and we'd just been eating in roadside places. We looked like a convention of chimney sweeps. But he would, when he wasn't driving, he would come back there and hunker down in the seat beside you and even though he was very slim and almost wiry at that time, he was still, had such a big frame, he would just squash you up against the side of the, of the bus and you'd be trying to type. And Ali didn't read very well. He was rejected from the army partly because he, he couldn't read very well. And he would look over at what you were typing and he would make comments, ah, make some editorial comments on your editorial comments. "I liked that." or "I don't like that." But actually, he really didn't know what you were writing. But he was a very empathetic, ah, just a nice person. And no matter what preconception you got on that bus with Ali with, it would have been absolutely impossible to get off disliking him.

MADISON DAVIS LACY: How did you reconcile your newfound, if you will, growing affection for Ali, when he refused induction into the service? How did you feel about that?
EDWIN POPE: I was very upset about it, personally and editorially. I didn't think it was right for Ali to refuse induction when other people were over there fighting and, and dying in Vietnam. Remember now that this was before we all knew what a tragic, just, ah, transcendentally horrible mistake Vietnam was. At that time it was of, almost as much of a situation of patriotism, much like World War II. Only in retrospect did we see what a terrible thing it was. This was before we saw that. So, I was very resentful of it and so were quite a few other people.
MADISON DAVIS LACY: All right, let's stop down.

I want to thank Duce. Every time he speaks disapprovingly of the GOAT I go back and check the record and realize what an extraordinary man Muhammad Ali was and what a exemplary life he led. He had flaws like the rest of us and that's what made him exceptional and not some cardboard saint.

Thank you.

If I could have changed three things about his career he would have been nicer to Joe, nicer to Floyd, and retired after Manilla, as the fights that came after it , when a DONE Ali fought, gave his critics ammunition to question his out of this world boxing acumen. As far as Joe And Floyd, given the politics of that era, especially with Joe, them getting along was probably impossible.

Il Duce wrote:

ThatOne wrote:I want to thank Duce. Every time he speaks disapprovingly of the GOAT I go back and check the record and realize what an extraordinary man Muhammad Ali was and what a exemplary life he led. He had flaws like the rest of us and that's what made him exceptional and not some cardboard saint.

Thank you.

Exemplary.........serving as a model or pattern, commendable

Are you out of your 'mind'.

Based upon your analysis, Benedict Arnold lived an exemplary life......

Just how many parents tell their children,,,,,,,,'I hope you grow up to be just like Muhammad Ali.'

Lots of parents. One of the three most influential African Americans of the twentieth century, one of the most influential Americans in the history of our nation, winner of the Medal Of Freedom, the highest civilian honor in the United States:




Jimmy said it best:

Muhammad Ali himself recalls an encounter with Jimmy, a young boy suffering from leukemia, who wanted to meet him before his epic fight with George Foreman in 1974. Before the boy left, Ali had a photograph taken of himself and Jimmy which he enlarged later and sent to the kid, with the inscription: “You’re going to beat cancer. I’m going to beat George. Love, Your friend, Muhammad Ali.”[10] Two weeks later Ali learned that Jimmy was in a hospital and not expected to live. Within three hours Ali was at the boy’s bedside.

When I walked in he was lying in his bed and I saw that his skin was as white as his sheets were.

Jimmy looked up with bright eyes and called out, “Muhammad, I knew you would come!”

I walked over to his bedside and said, “Jimmy, remember what I told you? I’m going to beat George Foreman and you’re going to beat cancer.”

Jimmy looked up at me and whispered, “No, Muhammad. I’m going to meet God, and I’m going to tell him that you are my friend.”

The room was silent and we were in tears. I hugged Jimmy good-bye and later that night when we returned to my training camp, none of us spoke much.[11]

Il Duce wrote:Jimmy Carter, without a doubt, the worst President of the United States.

'He just edged out Millard Fillmore by a Split-Decision'.

I believe if your were referring to me that post would be a non sequitur.



Do you think there are parents who wouldn't like to see their child be awarded their nation's highest civilian honor?

Il Duce wrote:Wouldn't you want your child to grow up to be maybe,

An, Alexander Fleming, or Charles Drew or Eli Whitney.........

It's easy to famous,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, all you have to do is sacrifice class.

The hardest thing to do, is to work hard and succeed, without being praised by others.

That is a Fact.

Would I have wanted my child to get his brains beat in and beat the brains out of his opponents for a living? Probably not but that begs the question of why we are here.

And when I look at Ali as a whole person and not a collection of random parts I find him to be admirable:" On that trip it became very apparent that he was basically, enormously, sweet natured, very compassionate, very friendly,"


Are there really great people who do great work every day, far removed from the glare of publicity? Of course. But we don't know them so we can't talk about them. I think the Rolling Stones wrote a song about them that I will link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEkRkZePRJk

Il Duce wrote:That One,

If I didn't know better,

I think you've turned this thread into a 'Muhammad Ali Worship Thread'.

I really didn't want to go in 'That One' direction.

I wanted to focus on Cassius Clay 'spewing' hate, saying disparaging things,
as well as exhibiting cruel behavior towards a fellow human being in
November 1965.

I liked Floyd Patterson. He's one of my favorite athletes. He believed that the black man and white man should live in harmony and as equals. That still roils a lot of people but I digress...But he did go overboard in his criticism of Ali and the Nation of Islam. You need to look at it through the lens of the times. True integration and equality was opposed by a lot of white people and just not in the south. As Malcolm X famously said "“I know nothing about the South. I am a creation of the Northern white man and of his hypocritical attitude towards the Negro." The Nation Of Islam, said, fine, we don't want to integrate with you either, and we're better than you. Was it misguided? Absolutely. Was it understandable a beleaguered people would turn to anything that empowered them? Absolutely.

I wish Ali had left the Nation Of Islam when Malcom X did but he didn't. He did leave the NOI and embraced conventional Islam In 1977 when Elijah Muhammad died.

And you are embellishing. Floyd and Cassius liked one another, ergo:


A: Part of the deal was willing participation on both sides to build up the gate and the closed-circuit viewing audience. Floyd related shortly after the fight that the famous confrontation at Patterson's training camp at which Ali showed up with a bag of carrots and called Patterson "The Rabbit" was indeed a publicity stunt, something that Ali felt he had to do. About the name thing: Patterson told W.C. Heinz that it was difficult for him to pronounce the word Muhammad, and that's why he continued to call Ali “Cassius.” Maybe that's true. Remember, Floyd had difficulty as a child learning to speak. Perhaps some words did cause him problems. Maybe it was because it was a "Muslim" word. Shortly after the fight, Patterson asked Ali if it was all right if he called him Cassius. Ali smiled and said, "Anytime, Floyd." Seven years later, when they fought for the second time, Ali said something to the effect that, yes, Patterson still called him Cassius and Floyd was the only person he allowed to do so.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/37158310/

Il Duce wrote:I wanted to focus on Cassius Clay 'spewing' hate, saying disparaging things,
as well as exhibiting cruel behavior towards a fellow human being in
November 1965.

That's obvious but you can't have it all your own way.

Il Duce wrote:

SteveO wrote:

Il Duce wrote:I wanted to focus on Cassius Clay 'spewing' hate, saying disparaging things,
as well as exhibiting cruel behavior towards a fellow human being in
November 1965.

That's obvious but you can't have it all your own way.

Hey Steve O., you finally crawled out from under that Rock in Ye Olde England.

Glad you came to the 'Party'.

Did you bring the 'Fish n' Chips'.

Churchill>>>>>>>>Mussolini

Neville Chamberlin. Now there's a name that puts a smile on any Duce's Face.

Il Duce wrote:Hey Steve O., you finally crawled out from under that Rock in Ye Olde England.

Well, I don't spend my whole life on the internet!
Here's a little titbit for you: In 1998 the WBC proclaimed Muhammad Ali as 'champion for life', so I guess he's still the heavyweight champion of the world :-)

Hey Il Du If Ali moved into your neighborhood and invited you to his back yard barbecue, what would you bring to sort of break the ice and help the celebration along?

BoxBuzz wrote:Hey Il Du If Ali moved into your neighborhood and invited you to his back yard barbecue, what would you bring to sort of break the ice and help the celebration along?

I get the feeling he would come over, say something rude and be hated by the rest of the neighborhood by the end of the week.

.....If your words are sincere, then I like the cut of your jib. As long as it remains free of termites.

Nonsense, I'm respectful to a fault, and my courtesy knows no limits.

You've never heard my voice, but you claim to have.

See, here we have another example, that's what the controversy about your credibility hinges on. You ignore the empirical and ride your imagination to the edge of our known galaxy.

Anyway, the very sound of my voice could cause neurological damage to the typical fiction writer.

Buzz is alright.

He is definitely more thoughtful and sophisticated than the average Ali fan.

Il Duce wrote:

yancey wrote:Buzz is alright.

He is definitely more thoughtful and sophisticated than the average Ali fan.

But that isn't saying much, even the average Marciano fan is sharper than Ali fans.

Mr. Yancey,

I believe that is like going for Root Canal, and saying I'll pass on the 'Novacaine'.

Box Buzz, does seem a bit eccentric in his use of words.

I liken it to gimmicky verbage, with outre' phrases.

Yes, there is some quirk, but quirk can be interesting.

In my estimation, he is definitely more reasoned than the average, starry-eyed Ali goofball.

yancey wrote:

Il Duce wrote:

yancey wrote:Buzz is alright.

He is definitely more thoughtful and sophisticated than the average Ali fan.

But that isn't saying much, even the average Marciano fan is sharper than Ali fans.

Mr. Yancey,

I believe that is like going for Root Canal, and saying I'll pass on the 'Novacaine'.

Box Buzz, does seem a bit eccentric in his use of words.

I liken it to gimmicky verbage, with outre' phrases.

Yes, there is some quirk, but quirk can be interesting.

In my estimation, he is definitely more reasoned than the average, starry-eyed Ali goofball.

Do you consider me a goofball yancey? Bearing in mind my favorite Heavyweight of all time is not Ali.

Il Duce wrote:Mr. G,

I do not consider you a 'Goof-Ball'.

You have a passion for Cassius Clay, and are a defender of Muhammad Ali,
but you are far from 'Crazy'.

I wouldn't say I have a passion for Ali, but I do defend him from what I feel are unfair accusations yes. I would do that for any fighter I felt was being misrepresented.

From his own era I have a deeper respect for Joe Frazier than any of the rest. A class human being and a wonderfully entertaining fighter. My favorite Heavyweight of all time in fact.

gilgamesh wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Mr. G,

I do not consider you a 'Goof-Ball'.

You have a passion for Cassius Clay, and are a defender of Muhammad Ali,
but you are far from 'Crazy'.

I wouldn't say I have a passion for Ali, but I do defend him from what I feel are unfair accusations yes. I would do that for any fighter I felt was being misrepresented.

From his own era I have a deeper respect for Joe Frazier than any of the rest. A class human being and a wonderfully entertaining fighter. My favorite Heavyweight of all time in fact.