BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote:That is just how he is. He is actually a nice guy most of the time, he just goes way overboard when it comes to boxers that he likes: they always have excuses (their opponents never do) for losses, and he goes way overboard with their wins.
If he doesn't like a guy, then of course that guy is overrated.

The Puerto Rican championship, Australian, NABF titles means a lot to elmer when it pertains to a fighter he likes. Otherwise it never gets mentioned for any other fighter.
Never occurs to him that he does this; never occurs to him that that you can be the Puerto Rican champion and not be one of the best 50 fighters in your weight class.

Never occurs to him that for a lightweight beating a great featherweight like say Willie Pep or Kid Chocolate is actually more impressive than somebody like Guts Ishimatu.

When a lightweight beats a featherweight great is just saying that you just beat a guy smaller than he. That is all to it.

All these so called great lightweights HAD A FEATHERWEIGHT or JR LIGHTWEIGHT to ENHANCE their records. That is all to it.

THE GREAT ROBERTO DURAN DID NOT HAD A FEATHERWEIGHT, OR JR. LIGHTWEIGHT NOR A WASHED UP GREAT/HOF CHALLENGING HIM...AM I RIGHT?

So being the best in your country, continent and the whole entire world does not mean greatness? That means yes.

I think you went overboard when you put the great Sugar Ray Leonard #2 at welterweight...Do you remember that, Ambling Alp?

And of all this, still the great Roberto Duran is the greatest lightweight of all time in this forum. Those that means that is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH? No.

elmersalsa wrote:And of all this, still the great Roberto Duran is the greatest lightweight of all time in this forum. Those that means that is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH? No.

It's Joe Gans. I'm going to prove it in the boxrec sim!

Tomasino wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:And of all this, still the great Roberto Duran is the greatest lightweight of all time in this forum. Those that means that is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH? No.

It's Joe Gans. I'm going to prove it in the boxrec sim!

If it is the great Joe Gans, halleluyah, too. That does not bother me. To me, it is the great Roberto Duran.

Duran split dec over Armstrong the rest just below these two.

elmersalsa wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:That is just how he is. He is actually a nice guy most of the time, he just goes way overboard when it comes to boxers that he likes: they always have excuses (their opponents never do) for losses, and he goes way overboard with their wins.
If he doesn't like a guy, then of course that guy is overrated.

The Puerto Rican championship, Australian, NABF titles means a lot to elmer when it pertains to a fighter he likes. Otherwise it never gets mentioned for any other fighter.
Never occurs to him that he does this; never occurs to him that that you can be the Puerto Rican champion and not be one of the best 50 fighters in your weight class.

Never occurs to him that for a lightweight beating a great featherweight like say Willie Pep or Kid Chocolate is actually more impressive than somebody like Guts Ishimatu.

When a lightweight beats a featherweight great is just saying that you just beat a guy smaller than he. That is all to it.

All these so called great lightweights HAD A FEATHERWEIGHT or JR LIGHTWEIGHT to ENHANCE their records. That is all to it.

THE GREAT ROBERTO DURAN DID NOT HAD A FEATHERWEIGHT, OR JR. LIGHTWEIGHT NOR A WASHED UP GREAT/HOF CHALLENGING HIM...AM I RIGHT?

So being the best in your country, continent and the whole entire world does not mean greatness? That means yes.

I think you went overboard when you put the great Sugar Ray Leonard #2 at welterweight...Do you remember that, Ambling Alp?

Who do you think Duran (at a 135 limit ) would be more worried about going into a fight; Willie Pep or Guts Ishimatsu? I think he would be a lot more concerned about? I think he would be much more concerned with Pep, even though he is smaller. Why? Because Pep would be hard to hit and Ishmatsu was simply not that hard to beat.
Who would Duran be concerned with going into a fight, Kid Chocolate or Sauol Mamby? I think Duran would be a lot more concerned about having to fight Chocolate. Why? Because Kid Chocolate wasn't that much smaller and Mamby was simply that hard to beat.

If you had to bet your life on a fight between Wille Pep and Gus Ishimatsu, who would you bet on? I wouldn't hesitate to bet on Pep. He was smaller, but much, much better.
If you have bet everything on a fight between Chocolate and Mamby, who would you bet on? I would hesitate to bet on Kid Chocolate. Mamby was a little bigger, but Chocolate was much, much better.

And of course, almost all of the fighters that I listed were not featherweights or Jr lightweights. They were lightweights. Of course you keep ignoring that.

Does being the champion of your country or even the world automatically mean that you are great? Absolutely not. Jess Willard was the champion, but he was nowhere near being a great fighter. You can't compare a win over him to say a win over Joe Frazier.
Jimmy Braddock, Mike Rossman, Frank Tate, Milt McCrory, Harry Arroyo, Calvin Grove, were all world champions. They were much better than most fighters. Guess, what, non of them were great fighters. They weren't nearly as good as great fighters like Larry Holmes, Ezzard Charles, Dick Tiger, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, or Sandy Saddler.

Do you really not understand this?

I never said Duran wasn't right up there. He and a few other guys are all very close. I have no problem with saying that Duran was the best. However, to think he beat better competition than several of these other guys is absurd.

If you are going to answer, chill out, use logic, don't rant, (no need to bring up Ray Leonard) and stop saying the same things that you have previously.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:That is just how he is. He is actually a nice guy most of the time, he just goes way overboard when it comes to boxers that he likes: they always have excuses (their opponents never do) for losses, and he goes way overboard with their wins.
If he doesn't like a guy, then of course that guy is overrated.

The Puerto Rican championship, Australian, NABF titles means a lot to elmer when it pertains to a fighter he likes. Otherwise it never gets mentioned for any other fighter.
Never occurs to him that he does this; never occurs to him that that you can be the Puerto Rican champion and not be one of the best 50 fighters in your weight class.

Never occurs to him that for a lightweight beating a great featherweight like say Willie Pep or Kid Chocolate is actually more impressive than somebody like Guts Ishimatu.

When a lightweight beats a featherweight great is just saying that you just beat a guy smaller than he. That is all to it.

All these so called great lightweights HAD A FEATHERWEIGHT or JR LIGHTWEIGHT to ENHANCE their records. That is all to it.

THE GREAT ROBERTO DURAN DID NOT HAD A FEATHERWEIGHT, OR JR. LIGHTWEIGHT NOR A WASHED UP GREAT/HOF CHALLENGING HIM...AM I RIGHT?

So being the best in your country, continent and the whole entire world does not mean greatness? That means yes.

I think you went overboard when you put the great Sugar Ray Leonard #2 at welterweight...Do you remember that, Ambling Alp?

Who do you think Duran (at a 135 limit ) would be more worried about going into a fight; Willie Pep or Guts Ishimatsu? I think he would be a lot more concerned about? I think he would be much more concerned with Pep, even though he is smaller. Why? Because Pep would be hard to hit and Ishmatsu was simply not that hard to beat.
Who would Duran be concerned with going into a fight, Kid Chocolate or Sauol Mamby? I think Duran would be a lot more concerned about having to fight Chocolate. Why? Because Kid Chocolate wasn't that much smaller and Mamby was simply that hard to beat.

If you had to bet your life on a fight between Wille Pep and Gus Ishimatsu, who would you bet on? I wouldn't hesitate to bet on Pep. He was smaller, but much, much better.
If you have bet everything on a fight between Chocolate and Mamby, who would you bet on? I would hesitate to bet on Kid Chocolate. Mamby was a little bigger, but Chocolate was much, much better.

And of course, almost all of the fighters that I listed were not featherweights or Jr lightweights. They were lightweights. Of course you keep ignoring that.

Does being the champion of your country or even the world automatically mean that you are great? Absolutely not. Jess Willard was the champion, but he was nowhere near being a great fighter. You can't compare a win over him to say a win over Joe Frazier.
Jimmy Braddock, Mike Rossman, Frank Tate, Milt McCrory, Harry Arroyo, Calvin Grove, were all world champions. They were much better than most fighters. Guess, what, non of them were great fighters. They weren't nearly as good as great fighters like Larry Holmes, Ezzard Charles, Dick Tiger, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, or Sandy Saddler.

Do you really not understand this?

I never said Duran wasn't right up there. He and a few other guys are all very close. I have no problem with saying that Duran was the best. However, to think he beat better competition than several of these other guys is absurd.

If you are going to answer, chill out, use logic, don't rant, (no need to bring up Ray Leonard) and stop saying the same things that you have previously.

To be honest mate I dont think Duran worried about fighting anyone.

Broomhall wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:"]That is just how he is. He is actually a nice guy most of the time, he just goes way overboard when it comes to boxers that he likes: they always have excuses (their opponents never do) for losses, and he goes way overboard with their wins.
If he doesn't like a guy, then of course that guy is overrated.

The Puerto Rican championship, Australian, NABF titles means a lot to elmer when it pertains to a fighter he likes. Otherwise it never gets mentioned for any other fighter.
Never occurs to him that he does this; never occurs to him that that you can be the Puerto Rican champion and not be one of the best 50 fighters in your weight class.

Never occurs to him that for a lightweight beating a great featherweight like say Willie Pep or Kid Chocolate is actually more impressive than somebody like Guts Ishimatu.

When a lightweight beats a featherweight great is just saying that you just beat a guy smaller than he. That is all to it.

All these so called great lightweights HAD A FEATHERWEIGHT or JR LIGHTWEIGHT to ENHANCE their records. That is all to it.

THE GREAT ROBERTO DURAN DID NOT HAD A FEATHERWEIGHT, OR JR. LIGHTWEIGHT NOR A WASHED UP GREAT/HOF CHALLENGING HIM...AM I RIGHT?

So being the best in your country, continent and the whole entire world does not mean greatness? That means yes.

I think you went overboard when you put the great Sugar Ray Leonard #2 at welterweight...Do you remember that, Ambling Alp?

Who do you think Duran (at a 135 limit ) would be more worried about going into a fight; Willie Pep or Guts Ishimatsu? I think he would be a lot more concerned about? I think he would be much more concerned with Pep, even though he is smaller. Why? Because Pep would be hard to hit and Ishmatsu was simply not that hard to beat.
Who would Duran be concerned with going into a fight, Kid Chocolate or Sauol Mamby? I think Duran would be a lot more concerned about having to fight Chocolate. Why? Because Kid Chocolate wasn't that much smaller and Mamby was simply that hard to beat.

If you had to bet your life on a fight between Wille Pep and Gus Ishimatsu, who would you bet on? I wouldn't hesitate to bet on Pep. He was smaller, but much, much better.
If you have bet everything on a fight between Chocolate and Mamby, who would you bet on? I would hesitate to bet on Kid Chocolate. Mamby was a little bigger, but Chocolate was much, much better.

And of course, almost all of the fighters that I listed were not featherweights or Jr lightweights. They were lightweights. Of course you keep ignoring that.

Does being the champion of your country or even the world automatically mean that you are great? Absolutely not. Jess Willard was the champion, but he was nowhere near being a great fighter. You can't compare a win over him to say a win over Joe Frazier.
Jimmy Braddock, Mike Rossman, Frank Tate, Milt McCrory, Harry Arroyo, Calvin Grove, were all world champions. They were much better than most fighters. Guess, what, non of them were great fighters. They weren't nearly as good as great fighters like Larry Holmes, Ezzard Charles, Dick Tiger, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, or Sandy Saddler.

Do you really not understand this?

I never said Duran wasn't right up there. He and a few other guys are all very close. I have no problem with saying that Duran was the best. However, to think he beat better competition than several of these other guys is absurd.

If you are going to answer, chill out, use logic, don't rant, (no need to bring up Ray Leonard) and stop saying the same things that you have previously.

To be honest mate I dont think Duran worried about fighting anyone.[/quote]

He was intimidated by Tommy Hearns.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:That is just how he is. He is actually a nice guy most of the time, he just goes way overboard when it comes to boxers that he likes: they always have excuses (their opponents never do) for losses, and he goes way overboard with their wins.
If he doesn't like a guy, then of course that guy is overrated.

The Puerto Rican championship, Australian, NABF titles means a lot to elmer when it pertains to a fighter he likes. Otherwise it never gets mentioned for any other fighter.
Never occurs to him that he does this; never occurs to him that that you can be the Puerto Rican champion and not be one of the best 50 fighters in your weight class.

Never occurs to him that for a lightweight beating a great featherweight like say Willie Pep or Kid Chocolate is actually more impressive than somebody like Guts Ishimatu.

When a lightweight beats a featherweight great is just saying that you just beat a guy smaller than he. That is all to it.

All these so called great lightweights HAD A FEATHERWEIGHT or JR LIGHTWEIGHT to ENHANCE their records. That is all to it.

THE GREAT ROBERTO DURAN DID NOT HAD A FEATHERWEIGHT, OR JR. LIGHTWEIGHT NOR A WASHED UP GREAT/HOF CHALLENGING HIM...AM I RIGHT?

So being the best in your country, continent and the whole entire world does not mean greatness? That means yes.

I think you went overboard when you put the great Sugar Ray Leonard #2 at welterweight...Do you remember that, Ambling Alp?

Who do you think Duran (at a 135 limit ) would be more worried about going into a fight; Willie Pep or Guts Ishimatsu? I think he would be a lot more concerned about? I think he would be much more concerned with Pep, even though he is smaller. Why? Because Pep would be hard to hit and Ishmatsu was simply not that hard to beat.
Who would Duran be concerned with going into a fight, Kid Chocolate or Sauol Mamby? I think Duran would be a lot more concerned about having to fight Chocolate. Why? Because Kid Chocolate wasn't that much smaller and Mamby was simply that hard to beat.

If you had to bet your life on a fight between Wille Pep and Gus Ishimatsu, who would you bet on? I wouldn't hesitate to bet on Pep. He was smaller, but much, much better.
If you have bet everything on a fight between Chocolate and Mamby, who would you bet on? I would hesitate to bet on Kid Chocolate. Mamby was a little bigger, but Chocolate was much, much better.

And of course, almost all of the fighters that I listed were not featherweights or Jr lightweights. They were lightweights. Of course you keep ignoring that.

Does being the champion of your country or even the world automatically mean that you are great? Absolutely not. Jess Willard was the champion, but he was nowhere near being a great fighter. You can't compare a win over him to say a win over Joe Frazier.
Jimmy Braddock, Mike Rossman, Frank Tate, Milt McCrory, Harry Arroyo, Calvin Grove, were all world champions. They were much better than most fighters. Guess, what, non of them were great fighters. They weren't nearly as good as great fighters like Larry Holmes, Ezzard Charles, Dick Tiger, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, or Sandy Saddler.

Do you really not understand this?

I never said Duran wasn't right up there. He and a few other guys are all very close. I have no problem with saying that Duran was the best. However, to think he beat better competition than several of these other guys is absurd.

If you are going to answer, chill out, use logic, don't rant, (no need to bring up Ray Leonard) and stop saying the same things that you have previously.

The problem with you and I when talking about the great Roberto Duran is that you want to PUT THAT HIS COMPETITION WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Like if they were TOMATO CANS or something. It is DAMNED IF HE DOES, DAMNED IF HE DOES NOT.

If he beat the great Sugar Ray Leonard, Leonard then, you and some others say "Leonard did not fight his fight" which is LAUGHABLE.

All I am saying is that the Hands of Stone did not had the luxury of the past lightweights. And NOBODY IN HERE PUT THE CONSIDERATION...Why? Why the smaller fighters did not fight him? It happened before he was champion, and then, afterwards. But why when he was the king of the lightweights NOBODY WANTED TO FIGHT HIM, especially the featherweigths and jr. lightweights. That speak volumes. All I am saying that those lightweights did not beat a great crop quality of good fighters like they had on record. Either they were WASHED UP (example Sugar Ramos) or were not real lightweights (like the great Willie Pep or Kid Chocolate).

I DO NOT SEE A BIG DIFFERENCE in Duran's opposition at lightweight than any other lightweight in history with the exception of the great Ike Williams. Now, if we are gonna talk who beat the MOST QUALITY OF OPPONENTS AT LIGHTWEIGHT, it was him, Williams. NOBODY IN HERE WANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT. He did not beat featherweights to enhance his record. He did not beat washed up legends. All of his wins were against guys in their primes. NOBODY ON WILLIAMS CAME CLOSE....NOBODY...WHY YOU DO NOT SAY THAT?


Nobody answered my two questions. Neither Seamus nor Idisagree said anything.

Maybe to you being champions at all levels of competition does not mean nothing. It means something to me. It would have meant something to me if I were fighting. Beating the very best of my country, continent and the whole entire world would have meant to ANY FIGHTER IN HISTORY. So do not come to me with that garbage that you are not impressed with Ken Buchanan and Esteban De Jesus accomplishments. Those two were two great lightweights. I got them in the top 20 lightweights. Why should not they be? They were exceptional. They were very good for that weight class. And NOBODY, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY CAN CHANGE MY MIND ON THAT. They were pretty good. They could beat any lightweight today if they were fighting this times when they were young. And they could have beaten any other lightweight of any era. One of them, according to the boxing experts, beat the greatest lightweight ever. So what that tells you?

Sometimes I wish the great Alexis Arguello would have challenged Duran. It would have been another great win that would speak more of his legend.

Duran beat some excellent fighters at lightweight....Like it or not: Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus, Saoul Mamby, Guts Ishimatsu, Vilomar Fernandez, Edwin Viruet, Ray Lampkin, and Hector Thompson. They may not be top 100 greats, but they were very good. And I am not eveb including Hiroshi Kobayashi, a former jr lightweight world champion in Duran's ledger. He was champion for 4 years: 1967-71...Oh, still not good enough. My bad.

Even though you don't have the courtesy to answer my questions, I will answer yours:
1. Why did a featherweight or Jr lightweight fight Duran for the lightweight title? I don't know for sure, and guess what, you don't either. There are many reasons why fights don't happen; it isn't automatically because fighters were afraid of Duran.

2. As for Ike Williams; Yes he beat great competition. Nobody has argued that he didn't. However, with your constant ranting and raving, you don't notice that nobody is arguing that. Yet you keep bringing it up. Just stop it.

Nobody is saying that Duran fought tomato cans. The guys that you mentioned were good fighters. They just were not as good as many of the fighters that other lightweights beat.

You have DeJesus and Buchanan is your top 20? You are obviously overlooking some people if they are in your top 20.

Take out featherweights and Jr lightweights, Benny Leonard, Tony Canzoneri, Henry Armstrong, Beau Jack, Angott, Montgomery all have wins over two lightweights that were clearly better than DeJesus and Buchanan; and I already listed them.

That doesn't mean that Duran automatically is not the best lightweight. There are other arguments that you could make that would support. I have said that before, but of course you don't pay attention to that.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Even though you don't have the courtesy to answer my questions, I will answer yours:
1. Why did a featherweight or Jr lightweight fight Duran for the lightweight title? I don't know for sure, and guess what, you don't either. There are many reasons why fights don't happen; it isn't automatically because fighters were afraid of Duran.

2. As for Ike Williams; Yes he beat great competition. Nobody has argued that he didn't. However, with your constant ranting and raving, you don't notice that nobody is arguing that. Yet you keep bringing it up. Just stop it.

Nobody is saying that Duran fought tomato cans. The guys that you mentioned were good fighters. They just were not as good as many of the fighters that other lightweights beat.

You have DeJesus and Buchanan is your top 20? You are obviously overlooking some people if they are in your top 20.

Take out featherweights and Jr lightweights, Benny Leonard, Tony Canzoneri, Henry Armstrong, Beau Jack, Angott, Montgomery all have wins over two lightweights that were clearly better than DeJesus and Buchanan; and I already listed them.

That doesn't mean that Duran automatically is not the best lightweight. There are other arguments that you could make that would support. I have said that before, but of course you don't pay attention to that.

Show me the evidence that they were not afraid. Why when he was champion, nobody challenged him but before that, featherweights were challenging lightweights FOR YEARS, and challenged lightweight champs after he left the division in '79. He was there for 7 long years. And nobody challenged him?

NOBODY WANTS TO ADMIT that the great Ike Williams had the most wins of the lightweight fighters. They want to put him in the same category with the others when Williams CLEARLY BEAT A GREAT VOLUME OF LIGHTWEIGHTS. Something the other lightweights in history did not, including Duran.

Those guys that you listed that were beaten by those greats were only better in accomplishments, not in talent. Ken Buchanan and Esteban De Jesus were MAGNIFICENT FIGHTERS, LIKE IT OR NOT THAT COULD HAVE HANG WITH ANY LIGHTWEIGHT IN HISTORY, AND HAD SOME GREAT WINS. If one of them beat Duran, what makes you think they would have not beaten the greats like Henry Armstrong, Bob Montgomery or Benny Leonard or Tony Canzoneri? I do not see TALENTWISE that they were far superior than Buchanan and De Jesus. Buchanan and De Jesus were as good as Sammy Angott or Beau Jack or Tony Canzoneri TALENTWISE. To me, they were.

The fact is Duran fought a bunch of cab drivers from Panama at lightweight.

Elmer let me ask you this: How many fighters did Duran fought with losing records at lightweight?

How many HOF fighters did he beat at lightweight?

How many cab drivers did Duran fought at lightweight?

I hate to do this because I'm a Duran fan but damn the fact is he did not faced great competition at lightweight. He had Buchanan, De Jesus, Marcel (although I think he was green at the time), Lampkin, and Edwin Viruet. To me that is his best competition at lightweight. Are you seriously saying that is better competition than the Carlos Ortiz?

How often does your company do Cranial CT Scan? You probably need one.

Idisagree wrote:The fact is Duran fought a bunch of cab drivers from Panama at lightweight.

Elmer let me ask you this: How many fighters did Duran fought with losing records at lightweight?

How many HOF fighters did he beat at lightweight?

How many cab drivers did Duran fought at lightweight?

I hate to do this because I'm a Duran fan but damn the fact is he did not faced great competition at lightweight. He had Buchanan, De Jesus, Marcel (although I think he was green at the time), Lampkin, and Edwin Viruet. To me that is his best competition at lightweight. Are you seriously saying that is better competition than the Carlos Ortiz?

How often does your company do Cranial CT Scan? You probably need one.

The great Carlos Ortiz did not had better competition than the great Hands of Stone at lightweight. That is an ILUSION. BEATING washed up featherweights like Sugar Ramos and overweight jr. Lightweights like Flash Elorde does not impress me.

Every boxer in time will fight CABMarcelRS in their careers. Duran was not the only one. That even happened to the greast like Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, Benny Leonard, Muhammad Ali, etc, etc, etc.

I do not even mention the Ernesto Marcel nor the Hiroshi Kobayashi wins to enhance Duran's record at lightweight like some people do. The Marcel fight was at feather, and Kobayashi was not a true lightweight, even he fought Duran at the lightweight limit.

To put technical and answering your question, since you and Seamus have not answered mine, Duran beat 3 HOF boxers at lightweight: Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus and Saoul Mamby. If the HOF be fair, Guts Ishimatsu should be there too. He did much more than Barry McGuigan... Did he not?

elmersalsa wrote:

Idisagree wrote:The fact is Duran fought a bunch of cab drivers from Panama at lightweight.

Elmer let me ask you this: How many fighters did Duran fought with losing records at lightweight?

How many HOF fighters did he beat at lightweight?

How many cab drivers did Duran fought at lightweight?

I hate to do this because I'm a Duran fan but damn the fact is he did not faced great competition at lightweight. He had Buchanan, De Jesus, Marcel (although I think he was green at the time), Lampkin, and Edwin Viruet. To me that is his best competition at lightweight. Are you seriously saying that is better competition than the Carlos Ortiz?

How often does your company do Cranial CT Scan? You probably need one.

The great Carlos Ortiz did not had better competition than the great Hands of Stone at lightweight. That is an ILUSION. BEATING washed up featherweights like Sugar Ramos and overweight jr. Lightweights like Flash Elorde does not impress me.

Every boxer in time will fight CABMarcelRS in their careers. Duran was not the only one. That even happened to the greast like Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, Benny Leonard, Muhammad Ali, etc, etc, etc.

I do not even mention the Ernesto Marcel nor the Hiroshi Kobayashi wins to enhance Duran's record at lightweight like some people do. The Marcel fight was at feather, and Kobayashi was not a true lightweight, even he fought Duran at the lightweight limit.

To put technical and answering your question, since you and Seamus have not answered mine, Duran beat 3 HOF boxers at lightweight: Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus and Saoul Mamby. If the HOF be fair, Guts Ishimatsu should be there too. He did much more than Barry McGuigan... Did he not?

Sorry Elmer but your blind love for Duran in seriously impeding your reasoning.

1. You said Ortiz was beating washed up fighters but then you bring up Kobayashi. Of course, Kobayashi was prime and at his best when he fought Duran. Please that is laughable. Kobayashi was well past his prime and was coming off a TKO loss. Get your facts straight.

2. Esteban De Jesus and Saoul Mamby HOF? When was the induction? Please get real. De Jesus granted was a solid fighter but not worthy of the HOF. Are you serious about Ishimatsu? A guy who had like 10 losses before he lost to Duran. According to your standards Viruet, Fernandez, Takayama, Lampking, and Pepe El Toro should be inducted into the HOF too.

Fact: At lightweight Duran’s competition is far below that of Ortiz. You need to get your facts straight. Duran only beat one HOF fighter at lightweight. He beat one solid fighter in De Jesus, and a bunch of average fighters in the rest. What is impressive is his domination but his resume is far below average at lightweight.

If Barry McGuigan is in the hall, why not Esteban DeJesus, Saoul Mamby or Guts Ishimatsu are not in Idisagree? They got MORE CREDENTIALS THAN McGuigan. Am I right?

The great Carlos Ortiz opposition is not superior to the great Hands of Stone at 135lbs. They are at the SAME LEVEL. Ortiz feasted of featherweights and washed up champs. The ONLY TRUE LIGHTWEIGHT HE BEAT in a prime, was Ismael Laguna. That is it.

I have NEVER MENTIONED the Duran win over Hiroshi Kobayashi, even though they fought at lightweight. Kobayashi was a jr. Lightweight champ. And by the way, he was not washed up when Duran fought him. He wqs supposed to be a great test for the young and upcoming Duran, who at the time was only 20 years of age. Duran stopped him in 7 in Panama City.

Do not make me laugh disagree. Please answer my questions, I answered yours.

Some boxers are in the HOF fame because of what they represented to their cultures and for how much financial success (mainly for the managers and promoters and alphabet groups) they had - an example would be McGuigan.

elmersalsa wrote:If Barry McGuigan is in the hall, why not Esteban DeJesus, Saoul Mamby or Guts Ishimatsu are not in Idisagree? They got MORE CREDENTIALS THAN McGuigan. Am I right?

The great Carlos Ortiz opposition is not superior to the great Hands of Stone at 135lbs. They are at the SAME LEVEL. Ortiz feasted of featherweights and washed up champs. The ONLY TRUE LIGHTWEIGHT HE BEAT in a prime, was Ismael Laguna. That is it.

I have NEVER MENTIONED the Duran win over Hiroshi Kobayashi, even though they fought at lightweight. Kobayashi was a jr. Lightweight champ. And by the way, he was not washed up when Duran fought him. He wqs supposed to be a great test for the young and upcoming Duran, who at the time was only 20 years of age. Duran stopped him in 7 in Panama City.

Do not make me laugh disagree. Please answer my questions, I answered yours.

Mcguigan went in because of his popularity and just because they made a mistake before does not means they have to keep making them. De Jesus and Ishimatsu does not have enough credentials to make it there. There are many factors to consider such as who you beat, longevity, dominance, and popularity. Outside De Jesus beating Duran who else can you claim as a great win? Ishimatsu you must be joking too. He hold a WBC title for about a year. How does that gives him credentials to be in the HOF? Mamby you must be joking. (at least I hope). Can you give me the credentials that Mamby has to enter the HOF?

You said I have NEVER MENTIONED the Duran win over Hiroshi Kobayashi. Can you tell me what is this "I do not even mention the Ernesto Marcel nor the Hiroshi Kobayashi wins to enhance Duran's record at lightweight like some people do. The Marcel fight was at feather, and Kobayashi was not a true lightweight, even he fought Duran at the lightweight limit. " An oxymoron?

How about Pepe El Toro, does he has the credentials to enter the HOF? If Mamby can get in then so should Pepe El Toro

Please Elmer stop embarrassing yourself.

It seems to me that you NEVER GOT THE POINT. YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY TWO QUESTIONS.

Duran's quality of opposition at lightweight TO ME, was not any different than the ones before him. It does not matter. I do not see any lightweight in history beating him in a 3 fight series, Idisagree. Put him in any era, and he comes on top or the second best.

elmersalsa wrote:It seems to me that you NEVER GOT THE POINT. YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY TWO QUESTIONS.

Duran's quality of opposition at lightweight TO ME, was not any different than the ones before him. It does not matter. I do not see any lightweight in history beating him in a 3 fight series, Idisagree. Put him in any era, and he comes on top or the second best.

So, to wrap this up Elmer, you are saying against any lightweight in history Duran either wins or loses? A stunning insight, thank you very much, good night and god bless.

Tomasino wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:It seems to me that you NEVER GOT THE POINT. YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY TWO QUESTIONS.

Duran's quality of opposition at lightweight TO ME, was not any different than the ones before him. It does not matter. I do not see any lightweight in history beating him in a 3 fight series, Idisagree. Put him in any era, and he comes on top or the second best.

So, to wrap this up Elmer, you are saying against any lightweight in history Duran either wins or loses? A stunning insight, thank you very much, good night and god bless.

Everybody loses. That is a part of life.

elmersalsa wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:It seems to me that you NEVER GOT THE POINT. YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY TWO QUESTIONS.

Duran's quality of opposition at lightweight TO ME, was not any different than the ones before him. It does not matter. I do not see any lightweight in history beating him in a 3 fight series, Idisagree. Put him in any era, and he comes on top or the second best.

So, to wrap this up Elmer, you are saying against any lightweight in history Duran either wins or loses? A stunning insight, thank you very much, good night and god bless.

Everybody loses. That is a part of life.

I'm glad we are on the same page

elmersalsa wrote:It seems to me that you NEVER GOT THE POINT. YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY TWO QUESTIONS.

Duran's quality of opposition at lightweight TO ME, was not any different than the ones before him. It does not matter. I do not see any lightweight in history beating him in a 3 fight series, Idisagree. Put him in any era, and he comes on top or the second best.

Could you repeat the two questions that I have no answered?

How about you answering some of mine?

Can you give me the credentials that Mamby, Ishimatusu, and De Jesus have to enter the HOF?
Longevity, Popularity, domination, what?????

Idisagree wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:It seems to me that you NEVER GOT THE POINT. YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY TWO QUESTIONS.

Duran's quality of opposition at lightweight TO ME, was not any different than the ones before him. It does not matter. I do not see any lightweight in history beating him in a 3 fight series, Idisagree. Put him in any era, and he comes on top or the second best.

Could you repeat the two questions that I have no answered?

How about you answering some of mine?

Can you give me the credentials that Mamby, Ishimatusu, and De Jesus have to enter the HOF?
Longevity, Popularity, domination, what?????

I will give you those answers with no problem. As a matter of fact, I will give it to you in detail. How about that?

FFS. No, calm down and ignore this thread for a day or 2.

palooka wrote:FFS. No, calm down and ignore this thread for a day or 2.