BoxRec

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

abdelfadeeli wrote:I have no problem with differing opinions. What I do have a problem with is ignorance.

Who has given any incorrect facts?

I can only see opinions.

Those with differing opinions are ignorant?

The ones who said Frazier was prime in 1973.

Only a 'schmuck' would fail to recognise that is opinion and not fact.

Giancarlo wrote: Only a 'schmuck' would fail to recognise that is opinion and not fact.

Even Foreman admitted he never beat the best Frazier.

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Giancarlo wrote: Only a 'schmuck' would fail to recognise that is opinion and not fact.

Even Foreman admitted he never beat the best Frazier.

He also said he was sh.it scared of Frazier didn't make much difference to the result though did it

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Giancarlo wrote: Only a 'schmuck' would fail to recognise that is opinion and not fact.

Even Foreman admitted he never beat the best Frazier.

Foreman is always saying good stuff about people. Joe just got beat. If he didnt train properly that doesnt make him past his prime. If he fought badly that doesnt make him past his prime. He just got beat by a better man on the day. It happens.

Broomhall wrote:

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Giancarlo wrote: Only a 'schmuck' would fail to recognise that is opinion and not fact.

Even Foreman admitted he never beat the best Frazier.

Foreman is always saying good stuff about people. Joe just got beat. If he didnt train properly that doesnt make him past his prime. If he fought badly that doesnt make him past his prime. He just got beat by a better man on the day. It happens.

Yes because i'd believe a person on a forum rather than a fighter who's been in the ring with him.

yancey wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

Woldemar wrote:When they fought a first time Joe was prime.George knock him out a second round

OK, so you you did rethink your first statement, that's good.

I would agree that Frazier was at the very least very near his prime in their first fight. Do you think he entered the ring well prepared for Foreman?

I'm assuming that you've seen the fight as well earlier Frazier fights.

I will absolutely disagree with the notion that Frazier was at "the very least very near his prime" in the first Foreman fight.

Frazier clearly declined post-FOTC. I have absolutely no doubt about this.

Me too. I donot doubt one bit that the great Joe Frazier after the FOTC, WAS NEVER THE SAME FIGHTER. I do not understand why some people cannot see that?

elmersalsa wrote:
Me too. I donot doubt one bit that the great Joe Frazier after the FOTC, WAS NEVER THE SAME FIGHTER. I do not understand why some people cannot see that?

I agree with this to a point--- mentally/emotionally he never was the same man again. And by the time he did build up enough of a spiritual force to combat Ali (Manila) he was already too far passed it physically to really do much with it; the fight with Ellis confirms this--- and even team Ali admitted they only gave Frazier the "rubber match" because they were convinced he was a washed up fighter at that time.

But Frazier's style was always going to trouble Ali, and it took Ali to generate the sort of interest and motivation for Frazier to bring out his A game.

HomicideHenry wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:
Me too. I donot doubt one bit that the great Joe Frazier after the FOTC, WAS NEVER THE SAME FIGHTER. I do not understand why some people cannot see that?

I agree with this to a point--- mentally/emotionally he never was the same man again. And by the time he did build up enough of a spiritual force to combat Ali (Manila) he was already too far passed it physically to really do much with it; the fight with Ellis confirms this--- and even team Ali admitted they only gave Frazier the "rubber match" because they were convinced he was a washed up fighter at that time.

But Frazier's style was always going to trouble Ali, and it took Ali to generate the sort of interest and motivation for Frazier to bring out his A game.

I agree with you on that.

It could also be said that the great George Foreman would beat the great Smokin Joe at any time of his career, something that it is not difficult for me to see...But, it is not difficult for me to see a Frazier victory over a prime Foreman, either.

Both were great heavyweights and could beat each other any day of the week...I just do not see Foreman winning EVERYTIME like others imply. That is absurd to say. Why? Because both of them had undisputable talents.

It is hard for a fighter to get that EMOTIONAL HIGH again after a big win. That happened to every fighter after a great and tough win. Examples: Ali vs Foreman, Duran vs Leonard I, Leonard vs Hearns, Frazier vs Ali I of course, Armstrong vs Ross, Chavez vs Taylor I, and Hagler vs Hearns and countless of other ones. For some fighters, the is the end and they ask themselves is there any other more mountains to climb. For Smokin' Joe, HIS MOUNTAIN, WAS THE BAD MAN CASSIUS CLAY!

The only advantage I see that Frazier COULD have over Foreman would be determination. And I think George can match him in that dept, so it puts the odds right back on George to win.

I think the odds are with Foreman in most scenarios.


Some of us still wonder if Joe would still be fightin' George today if the ref didn't stop it. lol. Technically he never quit.


Well....except for that ONE time.

BoxBuzz wrote:The only advantage I see that Frazier COULD have over Foreman would be determination. And I think George can match him in that dept, so it puts the odds right back on George to win.

I think the odds are with Foreman in most scenarios.


Some of us still wonder if Joe would still be fightin' George today if the ref didn't stop it. lol. Technically he never quit.


Well....except for that ONE time.

Frazier has heart, stamina, chin, and speed over Foreman. In the tale of the rape Frazier has neck, fist, waist, and thigh. Frazier never quit. If you're referring to Manilla, joe wanted to go on. Futch stopped him

It is hard for a fighter to get that EMOTIONAL HIGH again after a big win. That happened to every fighter after a great and tough win. Examples: Ali vs Foreman, Duran vs Leonard I, Leonard vs Hearns, Frazier vs Ali I of course, Armstrong vs Ross, Chavez vs Taylor I, and Hagler vs Hearns and countless of other ones. For some fighters, the is the end and they ask themselves is there any other more mountains to climb. For Smokin' Joe, HIS MOUNTAIN, WAS THE BAD MAN CASSIUS CLAY!



And countless other fighters have gone from strength to strength after a great and tough win. Frazier was at his fighting peak when he fought Foreman-he may not have prepared properly because he was over confident-but that was his problem. Foreman beat a young man in his peak.

As for believing what a fighter says rather than someone on a forum didnt Big George once say that Lennox Lewis was better than Ali?

elmersalsa wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:
Me too. I donot doubt one bit that the great Joe Frazier after the FOTC, WAS NEVER THE SAME FIGHTER. I do not understand why some people cannot see that?

I agree with this to a point--- mentally/emotionally he never was the same man again. And by the time he did build up enough of a spiritual force to combat Ali (Manila) he was already too far passed it physically to really do much with it; the fight with Ellis confirms this--- and even team Ali admitted they only gave Frazier the "rubber match" because they were convinced he was a washed up fighter at that time.

But Frazier's style was always going to trouble Ali, and it took Ali to generate the sort of interest and motivation for Frazier to bring out his A game.

I agree with you on that.

It could also be said that the great George Foreman would beat the great Smokin Joe at any time of his career, something that it is not difficult for me to see...But, it is not difficult for me to see a Frazier victory over a prime Foreman, either.

Both were great heavyweights and could beat each other any day of the week...I just do not see Foreman winning EVERYTIME like others imply. That is absurd to say. Why? Because both of them had undisputable talents.

It is hard for a fighter to get that EMOTIONAL HIGH again after a big win. That happened to every fighter after a great and tough win. Examples: Ali vs Foreman, Duran vs Leonard I, Leonard vs Hearns, Frazier vs Ali I of course, Armstrong vs Ross, Chavez vs Taylor I, and Hagler vs Hearns and countless of other ones. For some fighters, the is the end and they ask themselves is there any other more mountains to climb. For Smokin' Joe, HIS MOUNTAIN, WAS THE BAD MAN CASSIUS CLAY!

In 1973, I bet on Foreman because I knew that Frazier didn't have it in him anymore. And I saw Foreman shoving and holding Gullick a year earlier and I was certain he would've done this against Frazier. I say this as a very big Foreman fan, I wouldn't put my money on Foreman if he fought late 1968-1971 Frazier. I liked Foreman better than Frazier back then and didn't want to see him fighting Frazier pre-FOTC. I knew he would lose. It was only after the FOTC, i was confident enough Foreman would beat Frazier to put my money on it and I made a killing.
1973 Jamaica Frazier could fight Foreman 100 times and likely gets knocked out 1000 times.

1976 post Manilla Frazier could fight Foreman 100 times and likely gets knocked out 100 times.

1967- 1970 Frazier could fight Foreman 100 times and I'd say Joe probably wins 60 or more of those fights, with 10 or 20 by mid to late round KO.

Foreman was devastating in Jamaica 1973, but he's not beating the prime 1967 - 1970 Frazier with the relative ease he showed. This version of Frazier would be on Foreman faster than any other opponent he would have faced. There's no doubting that Foreman catches prime Frazier early in the fight and has him down once or twice.

Prime Joe Frazier was a much different animal that was much harder to hit in the late 60's. There's no way Foreman would have been able to absorb Frazier's body work for more than five rounds without slowing down significantly. Ali barely hit Foreman to the body in 1974 and he had nothing left after the seventh round. What makes people think Foreman would have the same steam on his punches going into the middle rounds against a prime Frazier?

Too much focus is made on Frazier's poor Jamaica performance without looking objectively at who the dominant champion was after Ali's exile. It didn't help either that Mercante was letting Foreman push, grab, and shove Frazier's shoulders aside to get separation. That is an illegal tactic that should have resulted in a point deduction, but like I said before, Mercante probably wanted to make sure the ultimate decision was out of his hands.

Prime Joe Frazier was a much different animal that was much harder to hit in the late 60's. There's no way Foreman would have been able to absorb Frazier's body work for more than five rounds without slowing down significantly. Ali barely hit Foreman to the body in 1974 and he had nothing left after the seventh round. What makes people think Foreman would have the same steam on his punches going into the middle rounds against a prime Frazier?

Too much focus is made on Frazier's poor Jamaica performance without looking objectively at who the dominant champion was after Ali's exile. It didn't help either that Mercante was letting Foreman push, grab, and shove Frazier's shoulders aside to get separation. That is an illegal tactic that should have resulted in a point deduction, but like I said before, Mercante probably wanted to make sure the ultimate decision was out of his hands.




Foreman didnt need to go into the later rounds and never would. Any time, any place Foreman wins.

Broomhall wrote:Prime Joe Frazier was a much different animal that was much harder to hit in the late 60's. There's no way Foreman would have been able to absorb Frazier's body work for more than five rounds without slowing down significantly. Ali barely hit Foreman to the body in 1974 and he had nothing left after the seventh round. What makes people think Foreman would have the same steam on his punches going into the middle rounds against a prime Frazier?

Too much focus is made on Frazier's poor Jamaica performance without looking objectively at who the dominant champion was after Ali's exile. It didn't help either that Mercante was letting Foreman push, grab, and shove Frazier's shoulders aside to get separation. That is an illegal tactic that should have resulted in a point deduction, but like I said before, Mercante probably wanted to make sure the ultimate decision was out of his hands.




Foreman didnt need to go into the later rounds and never would. Any time, any place Foreman wins.

He was 20 lbs over his prime weight, visibly slowed down, and an overall physical mess after the savage Manilla fight. He was now nearly completely blind in his bad eye and according to his book, was actually secretlly wearing a contact lense into the fight out of desperation to retain some vision. He frankly had no business in the ring, but he still managed to do better against a very sharp Foreman.

Nothing is for certain, but you have to say a younger, fresher 205 lb Frazier would have to be more effective than his slower, wrecked self. Especially with upperbody movement and stamina being so crucial in such a strategy. And I'm not sure Foreman could fight that way all night, he was missing lots of shots and Frazier was finding a home for his left hook.
You're saying Peak Frazier wouldn't ever get out of the early rounds when a completely shot Frazier did just that against a smarter Foreman.

For the first fight Frazier weighed 214 which is 9lbs over what you call his "prime" weight, although on many occasions heavyweights have come in heavier if they are fighting a bigger guy. At the age of 29 Frazier had none of the physical deterioration that he had in the second fight. He also had relatively few miles on the clock having won the majority of his fights up until then inside the distance.

I also wouldnt call getting knocked out in the fifth round as getting into the later rounds. I would call that getting knocked out in the early rounds and I would also call that peotic licence on your part.

Broomhall wrote:For the first fight Frazier weighed 214 which is 9lbs over what you call his "prime" weight, although on many occasions heavyweights have come in heavier if they are fighting a bigger guy. At the age of 29 Frazier had none of the physical deterioration that he had in the second fight. He also had relatively few miles on the clock having won the majority of his fights up until then inside the distance.

I also wouldnt call getting knocked out in the fifth round as getting into the later rounds. I would call that getting knocked out in the early rounds and I would also call that peotic licence on your part.

Is there a way to prove these so called facts of yours? I never said Frazier got into the later rounds. I said he got out of the early rounds. Getting out of the early rounds and getting into the late rounds are two very different things. You don't get to twist my words around to where it suits your argument.

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Broomhall wrote:For the first fight Frazier weighed 214 which is 9lbs over what you call his "prime" weight, although on many occasions heavyweights have come in heavier if they are fighting a bigger guy. At the age of 29 Frazier had none of the physical deterioration that he had in the second fight. He also had relatively few miles on the clock having won the majority of his fights up until then inside the distance.

I also wouldnt call getting knocked out in the fifth round as getting into the later rounds. I would call that getting knocked out in the early rounds and I would also call that peotic licence on your part.

Is there a way to prove these so called facts of yours? I never said Frazier got into the later rounds. I said he got out of the early rounds. Getting out of the early rounds and getting into the late rounds are two very different things. You don't get to twist my words around to where it suits your argument.

For the facts just check the weigh in data for the fights-it is easy to find-I think may even be on boxrec. I call the 5th round an early round in a 12 round fight.

Nothing twisted at all. There is the proof you need, incidently there is no proof whatsoever to back up your assertion that Frazier was past it when he fought Foreman-it is just an opinion-same as mine.

Broomhall wrote:
Nothing twisted at all. There is the proof you need, incidently there is no proof whatsoever to back up your assertion that Frazier was past it when he fought Foreman-it is just an opinion-same as mine.

You must be trolling me. I have provided so much proof that you are deliberately ignoring. But I will provide more since you obviously aren't the brightest bulb on the porch.
The Fotc was the greatest fight of all time and Frazier deserved to win. Though I have Ali the winner on rounds, he didn't deserve to win it. The right man won. Also Frazier had at least 2 big rounds. On points I have Frazier the winner. The right man won that night.
Frazier went to the hospital after the fotc and nearly died. Don't take my word for it. research this (and boxing while you are at it since you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed) on the internet.
Also "But the punishment joe took was unbelievable. His manager, Yancey Durham, and his handlers virtually carried Frazier to his dressing room. His face was a hideous pulpy mess." Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 41,6098943
Ali himself said Frazier took alot of punishement. Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 08,4658359
You need anymore evidence, please let me know.
Get a life. They're selling em at the mall. Once you reach Puberty, things may get better for you.

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Broomhall wrote:
Nothing twisted at all. There is the proof you need, incidently there is no proof whatsoever to back up your assertion that Frazier was past it when he fought Foreman-it is just an opinion-same as mine.

You must be trolling me. I have provided so much proof that you are deliberately ignoring. But I will provide more since you obviously aren't the brightest bulb on the porch.
The Fotc was the greatest fight of all time and Frazier deserved to win. Though I have Ali the winner on rounds, he didn't deserve to win it. The right man won. Also Frazier had at least 2 big rounds. On points I have Frazier the winner. The right man won that night.
Frazier went to the hospital after the fotc and nearly died. Don't take my word for it. research this (and boxing while you are at it since you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed) on the internet.
Also "But the punishment joe took was unbelievable. His manager, Yancey Durham, and his handlers virtually carried Frazier to his dressing room. His face was a hideous pulpy mess." Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 41,6098943
Ali himself said Frazier took alot of punishement. Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 08,4658359
You need anymore evidence, please let me know.
Get a life. They're selling em at the mall. Once you reach Puberty, things may get better for you.

I wont stoop to your level Abdel and start insulting people. Boxers take punishment in fights, that isnt new.Not sure where you are going with the argument re Ali winning, but not winning-not sure what that has to do with anything?
Also FOTC is an opinion- personally I have seen more exciting fights. Lots of sportsmen/women push themselves to exhaustion, and many end up in hospital as a precautionary measure but it doesnt mean they are then "past their primes"

You also seem to have conveniently skipped over the early rounds argument now that you got whupped on that one

Frazier was 29 in the best form of his life, confident after beating Ali and a couple of easy wins, only 29 fights, many of them ending inside the distance-he didnt train right for Foreman as over confident and got beat.

Anyway there it is.

Broomhall wrote:

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Broomhall wrote:
Nothing twisted at all. There is the proof you need, incidently there is no proof whatsoever to back up your assertion that Frazier was past it when he fought Foreman-it is just an opinion-same as mine.

You must be trolling me. I have provided so much proof that you are deliberately ignoring. But I will provide more since you obviously aren't the brightest bulb on the porch.
The Fotc was the greatest fight of all time and Frazier deserved to win. Though I have Ali the winner on rounds, he didn't deserve to win it. The right man won. Also Frazier had at least 2 big rounds. On points I have Frazier the winner. The right man won that night.
Frazier went to the hospital after the fotc and nearly died. Don't take my word for it. research this (and boxing while you are at it since you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed) on the internet.
Also "But the punishment joe took was unbelievable. His manager, Yancey Durham, and his handlers virtually carried Frazier to his dressing room. His face was a hideous pulpy mess." Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 41,6098943
Ali himself said Frazier took alot of punishement. Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 08,4658359
You need anymore evidence, please let me know.
Get a life. They're selling em at the mall. Once you reach Puberty, things may get better for you.

I wont stoop to your level Abdel and start insulting people. Boxers take punishment in fights, that isnt new.Not sure where you are going with the argument re Ali winning, but not winning-not sure what that has to do with anything?
Also FOTC is an opinion- personally I have seen more exciting fights. Lots of sportsmen/women push themselves to exhaustion, and many end up in hospital as a precautionary measure but it doesnt mean they are then "past their primes"

You also seem to have conveniently skipped over the early rounds argument now that you got whupped on that one

Frazier was 29 in the best form of his life, confident after beating Ali and a couple of easy wins, only 29 fights, many of them ending inside the distance-he didnt train right for Foreman as over confident and got beat.

Anyway there it is.

You aren't sharpest tool in the shed, are you? Teh early rounds to me are 1-3. you can maybe drag it int 4. But not much more than that.

It makes no difference Abdel-early rounds, middle rounds, late rounds, so called "prime" frazier, past his prime frazier-Foreman whupped a young, fit and confident Frazier, and would do so on every occasion they fought.

As I said I would call the 5th and early round in a 12 round fight-but like so many things in boxing-just an opinion-no need to start crying about it

There is no evidence to indicate anything else-yours in an opinion-like mine-the only difference being is that as in this case your opinion would be wrong.

Broomhall wrote:It makes no difference Abdel-early rounds, middle rounds, late rounds, so called "prime" frazier, past his prime frazier-Foreman whupped a young, fit and confident Frazier, and would do so on every occasion they fought.

As I said I would call the 5th and early round in a 12 round fight-but like so many things in boxing-just an opinion-no need to start crying about it

There is no evidence to indicate anything else-yours in an opinion-like mine-the only difference being is that as in this case your opinion would be wrong.

He was not fit. You also forgot to mention he was fat, and untrained. I don't know if my opinion is right or wrong about the outcome of the fight and probably will never know. But I know for a fact Frazier was never the same after the FOTC. Start a poll. "Was Frazier prime in 1973?"

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Broomhall wrote:It makes no difference Abdel-early rounds, middle rounds, late rounds, so called "prime" frazier, past his prime frazier-Foreman whupped a young, fit and confident Frazier, and would do so on every occasion they fought.

As I said I would call the 5th and early round in a 12 round fight-but like so many things in boxing-just an opinion-no need to start crying about it

There is no evidence to indicate anything else-yours in an opinion-like mine-the only difference being is that as in this case your opinion would be wrong.

He was not fit. You also forgot to mention he was fat, and untrained. I don't know if my opinion is right or wrong about the outcome of the fight and probably will never know. But I know for a fact Frazier was never the same after the FOTC. Start a poll. "Was Frazier prime in 1973?"

Definitely will never know

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Broomhall wrote:It makes no difference Abdel-early rounds, middle rounds, late rounds, so called "prime" frazier, past his prime frazier-Foreman whupped a young, fit and confident Frazier, and would do so on every occasion they fought.

As I said I would call the 5th and early round in a 12 round fight-but like so many things in boxing-just an opinion-no need to start crying about it

There is no evidence to indicate anything else-yours in an opinion-like mine-the only difference being is that as in this case your opinion would be wrong.

He was not fit. You also forgot to mention he was fat, and untrained. I don't know if my opinion is right or wrong about the outcome of the fight and probably will never know. But I know for a fact Frazier was never the same after the FOTC. Start a poll. "Was Frazier prime in 1973?"

He WASNT fat. He was 214 and had been higher than that in previous fights. So only 9lbs above his best weight of around 205 Reports from his camp prior to the fight report he was training well, and was confident.

Because someone trained badly or was over confident does not make them past it. He was in good form after the so called FOTC. I think the Foreman fight destroyed his confidence and maybe not the same after that loss, but he would have been on a high after the Ali win.

You DONT know for a fact Frazier was never the same. In YOUR opinion he was never the same and this is a very different thing. As REXOB says wisely " I guess we will never know"

Broomhall wrote:

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Broomhall wrote:It makes no difference Abdel-early rounds, middle rounds, late rounds, so called "prime" frazier, past his prime frazier-Foreman whupped a young, fit and confident Frazier, and would do so on every occasion they fought.

As I said I would call the 5th and early round in a 12 round fight-but like so many things in boxing-just an opinion-no need to start crying about it

There is no evidence to indicate anything else-yours in an opinion-like mine-the only difference being is that as in this case your opinion would be wrong.

He was not fit. You also forgot to mention he was fat, and untrained. I don't know if my opinion is right or wrong about the outcome of the fight and probably will never know. But I know for a fact Frazier was never the same after the FOTC. Start a poll. "Was Frazier prime in 1973?"

He WASNT fat. He was 214 and had been higher than that in previous fights. So only 9lbs above his best weight of around 205 Reports from his camp prior to the fight report he was training well, and was confident.

Because someone trained badly or was over confident does not make them past it. He was in good form after the so called FOTC. I think the Foreman fight destroyed his confidence and maybe not the same after that loss, but he would have been on a high after the Ali win.

You DONT know for a fact Frazier was never the same. In YOUR opinion he was never the same and this is a very different thing. As REXOB says wisely " I guess we will never know"

The Frazier that fought Foreman in `73 had slipped about 20-25%. As already noted he had lost his drive and focus on boxing. Joe had started a singing band and was enjoying life outside of boxing a little more. His managers and family were in his ear about retiring as undefeated Heavyweight Champion after beating Ali. That coudnt have helped.

With that he gained some weight and Joe also underestimated Foreman as well. Nobody really knew just what a powerhouse George Foreman was until after that fight.

After he lost his title Joe Frazier did come close to regaining his form. It took awhile. By `74 had looked really good agiainst Quarry, Ellis and then Ali in Manila. He almost won the title back.

Even with all that Joe Frazier`s style was never suited for longevity. He burned brightly though when he was on.
Rexob was referring to the peak foreman vs peak frazier fight.
He just lost all his motivation. That Frazier was definitely overweight. If you can't see the difference between a 1973 Frazier and The Fotc Frazier, I simply don't know where to begin.