BoxRec

Chuck1052 wrote:Roberto Duran was a lightweight during his prime. As a result, I thought Duran was slightly past his peak when he beat Sugar Ray Leonard.

- Chuck Johnston

I agree to that. Almost no fighter can dominate two decades. Sugar Ray did not do it, neither Ali nor Duran.

A decade is 10 years. I don't think anyone was saying Duran was in his prime for 20 years.
Ali was still the heavyweight champion 14 years after he won the title the first time.
Duran's first two fights with Leonard were only 8 years after he won the lightweight title.
Leonard despite missing all that time, still had more major wins than Duran.

When was Duran in his prime?
It sure was not 1972, when he won the lightweight title. He lost to DeJesus that year. He was just 20 years old.
It was not by 1975. That year, he struggled with the legendary Ray Lampkin and had a fight with Viruet that easily could have gone the other way.

There is no reason at all to think that he was not in his prime when he fought Leonard in 1980.

Ambling Alp II wrote:A decade is 10 years. I don't think anyone was saying Duran was in his prime for 20 years.
Ali was still the heavyweight champion 14 years after he won the title the first time.
Duran's first two fights with Leonard were only 8 years after he won the lightweight title.
Leonard despite missing all that time, still had more major wins than Duran.

When was Duran in his prime?
It sure was not 1972, when he won the lightweight title. He lost to DeJesus that year. He was just 20 years old.
It was not by 1975. That year, he struggled with the legendary Ray Lampkin and had a fight with Viruet that easily could have gone the other way.

There is no reason at all to think that he was not in his prime when he fought Leonard in 1980.

Leonard was never better than Duran. His prime, for starters, was TOO SHORT (1979-82).
DURAN'S PRIME lasted at least 7 or 8 years (1972-80). And what a prime it was! Twelve title defenses, ALMOST ALL OF THEM BY KO. Ten straight title defenses won by knockout. (It was broken in '80 by the great Wilfred Gomez.)
Won 41 in a row, and unified the lightweight crowns. By the time he finished with nemesis, Esteban DeJesus, HE RAN OUT OF CHALLENGERS. NOBODY FROM FEATHER TO JR WELTER WANTED A CRACK AT HIM. So, what he does? Jump 2 weight classes and whupped the great Sugar Ray Leonard. Had he retired after that win, he would have been HOF on the spot. Heck, he was already a HOF when cleaned up the lightweights.

This guy got to be the greatest fighter of the last 50 years. At least, to me, he is THE GREATEST FIGHTER OF MY LIFETIME!

Are you a Duran fan elmersalsa? I didn't notice.

keithmoonhangover wrote:Are you a Duran fan elmersalsa? I didn't notice.

Even if I was not a fan of his, I would still pick him as the best of my lifetime. The best of what my eyes have seen in boxing.

When you put into account all that he did and accomplished, he was INCREDIBLE that Duran.

elmersalsa wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:Are you a Duran fan elmersalsa? I didn't notice.

Even if I was not a fan of his, I would still pick him as the best of my lifetime. The best of what my eyes have seen in boxing.

When you put into account all that he did and accomplished, he was INCREDIBLE that Duran.

OK.

His level of opponents at lightweight was for the most part, poor. I mean, really, who did he beat at lightweight? Certainly no one of the quality Leonard beat at welter. He lost to Dejesus, but he won the rematch and the next fight, which is exactly what Leonard did with Duran.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:Are you a Duran fan elmersalsa? I didn't notice.

Even if I was not a fan of his, I would still pick him as the best of my lifetime. The best of what my eyes have seen in boxing.

When you put into account all that he did and accomplished, he was INCREDIBLE that Duran.

OK.

His level of opponents at lightweight was for the most part, poor. I mean, really, who did he beat at lightweight? Certainly no one of the quality Leonard beat at welter. He lost to Dejesus, but he won the rematch and the next fight, which is exactly what Leonard did with Duran.

Take off the greats Wilfred Benitez (jr. Welter) and Roberto Duran ( Lightweight), and the great Sugar Ray Leonard would ONLY have the great Thomas Hearns.

NOBODY, FROM FEATHER TO JR WELTER CHALLENGED DURAN . If Duran retires after the third Esteban DeJesus fight, he would have still make the IBHOF. He would have still be called a legend. He would have still be called as The greatest lightweight ever.

I cannot picture as great as Alexis Arguello was, or greats like Salvador Sanchez, Eusebio Pedrosa or Wilfred Gomez, challenging Duran and take his crown. Duran would abuse them. That is why Duran is AN ABOVE CLASS BY HIMSELF!

All other champions in history, had at least, at least, a champion from another lower weight class challenging him. Why it didn't Happened to Duran?
Is it a coincidence?

Duran was INCREDIBLE.

So take off two great fighters that Leonard beat at welterweight, and Leonard then only beat one great fighter at welterweight. That is is true elmer. Should we do that with everybody? Take off their best two wins? Why after all, why should we count someone's best wins? That is just crazy talk, isn't it?

Ambling Alp II wrote:So take off two great fighters that Leonard beat at welterweight, and Leonard then only beat one great fighter at welterweight. That is is true elmer. Should we do that with everybody? Take off their best two wins? Why after all, why should we count someone's best wins? That is just crazy talk, isn't it?

Keith was complaining about Duran quality of opposition that it was poor. Well, if the greats like Alexis Arguello and Wilftedo Gomez would have challenged Duran's lightweight crown, then we are talking.

At least Duran beat two all time great lightweights. They did not come up on weight like Duran and the great Wilfred Benitez did to challenge Leonard. Take those two off, and Sugar Ray only have the great Thomas Hearns.

Take off Hearns and Duran and the great Marvin Hagler has NOBODY.Still, we would have called Marvelous a great middleweight even if they never challenged him.

Duran NEVER HAD THAT LUXURY. No great super bantam, feather nor jr.lightweight champ even looked his way. That comes to show you how great Duran was.

Small point, but Leonard challenged Benitez for his WBC title, he had won it off Palamino and had already been at welterweight for 2 years himself.

elmersalsa wrote: Sugar Ray Leonard would ONLY have the great Thomas Hearns.

Only? ONLY?!? ONLY??!?!?!?!?!?!? ONLY THOMAS HEARNS? AT WELTERWEIGHT!!?!?!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Really? REALLY???

orbtastic wrote:Small point, but Leonard challenged Benitez for his WBC title, he had won it off Palamino and had already been at welterweight for 2 years himself.

The point is, Benitez came up. Leonard had THE LUXURY to fight he and Duran IN HIS WEIGHT CLASS.

WHO CAME UP IN WEIGHT TO FIGHT DURAN? ....NOBODY!

elmersalsa wrote:

orbtastic wrote:Small point, but Leonard challenged Benitez for his WBC title, he had won it off Palamino and had already been at welterweight for 2 years himself.

The point is, Benitez came up. Leonard had THE LUXURY to fight he and Duran IN HIS WEIGHT CLASS.

WHO CAME UP IN WEIGHT TO FIGHT DURAN? ....NOBODY!

The point is, Duran didn't beat anyone as good as Hearns at Lightweight. Do you agree with that statement?

keithmoonhangover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote: Sugar Ray Leonard would ONLY have the great Thomas Hearns.

Only? ONLY?!? ONLY??!?!?!?!?!?!? ONLY THOMAS HEARNS? AT WELTERWEIGHT!!?!?!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Really? REALLY???

No, I am not kidding. That is the ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT LEONARD FACED. Duran and Benitez came up.

Put Alexis Arguello and Wilftedo Gomez at 135lbs to challenge Duran's crown and it would be THE EQUIVALENT of Benitez and Duran fighting at 147.

Am I right, people? You know it is that way.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

orbtastic wrote:Small point, but Leonard challenged Benitez for his WBC title, he had won it off Palamino and had already been at welterweight for 2 years himself.

The point is, Benitez came up. Leonard had THE LUXURY to fight he and Duran IN HIS WEIGHT CLASS.

WHO CAME UP IN WEIGHT TO FIGHT DURAN? ....NOBODY!

The point is, Duran didn't beat anyone as good as Hearns at Lightweight. Do you agree with that statement?

No, he did not and you are right. You could only fight what is in front of you.
But that does not mean that Leonard was superior. He whupped Leonard in the biggest fight of his career. And he had to jump two classes to do it.....How about that?

elmersalsa wrote:[quote="keithmoonhangover]

The point is, Duran didn't beat anyone as good as Hearns at Lightweight. Do you agree with that statement?

No, he did not and you are right. You could only fight what is in front of you.
But that does not mean that Leonard was superior. He whupped Leonard in the biggest fight of his career. And he had to jump two classes to do it.....How about that?[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Do you also agree that Leonard didn't lose to anyone as poor as Dejesus at welterweight?

Do you really think he going to answer this? He always ignores other peoples points when it hurts his cause.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Do you really think he going to answer this? He always ignores other peoples points when it hurts his cause.

I've got my fingers crossed and everything!!

Maybe Elmo will just QUIT the conversation, like Duran QUI..... no, I won't go there.

elmersalsa wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote: Sugar Ray Leonard would ONLY have the great Thomas Hearns.

Only? ONLY?!? ONLY??!?!?!?!?!?!? ONLY THOMAS HEARNS? AT WELTERWEIGHT!!?!?!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Really? REALLY???

No, I am not kidding. That is the ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT LEONARD FACED. Duran and Benitez came up.

Put Alexis Arguello and Wilftedo Gomez at 135lbs to challenge Duran's crown and it would be THE EQUIVALENT of Benitez and Duran fighting at 147.

Am I right, people? You know it is that way.

No like almost always, you are wrong, in many ways.

First, Gomez had just won the super bantamweight championship when Duran was the lightweight champion. That is three weight classes below Duran. A win over Gomez in 1977 would have meant virtually nothing.

2nd - What exactly does "challenge" mean? You don't know that Arguello did not want a fight with Duran.
3rd - We don't know that Duran would have beat Arguello. We know that Leonard would beat Hearns, because it actually happened.
4th - Hearns was the only true welter Leonard ever beat? How stupid. He beat 8 Top 10 contenders before he ever got a title shot.
5th -Duran was a true welterweight when Leonard made Duran quit like a baby. He had been for years. Benitez was a true welterweight for years.
You keep overlooking that Duran (and Benitez) had fought many times as welterweights. Almost everybody moves up in weight. Deal with it.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Do you really think he going to answer this? He always ignores other peoples points when it hurts his cause.

I've got my fingers crossed and everything!!

Maybe Elmo will just QUIT the conversation, like Duran QUI..... no, I won't go there.

No you can't go there.
You have to remember that the rematch was too soon, 5 months after the first fight is just too soon.
And Duran supposedly gained 50 or 60 pounds in just two months.
And that not only are you supposed to believe that, you are supposed to think that it is relevant.
And course, Duran is forever a lightweight. It doesn't matter what the scales say.
It doesn't matter that he been fighting at over 140 many times over several years.
It doesn't matter that Leonard, Benitez, Hearns and countless others moved up in weight.
Duran was always a lightweight and the 2nd fight doesn't count.

Don't go there!!

keithmoonhangover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:[quote="keithmoonhangover]

The point is, Duran didn't beat anyone as good as Hearns at Lightweight. Do you agree with that statement?

No, he did not and you are right. You could only fight what is in front of you.
But that does not mean that Leonard was superior. He whupped Leonard in the biggest fight of his career. And he had to jump two classes to do it.....How about that?

[/quote][/quote]

Do you also agree that Leonard didn't lose to anyone as poor as Dejesus at welterweight?[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Esteban DeJesus was an excellent fighter. No shame on that. He is a top 20 all time lightweight by The Ring Magazine. I agree with that. Out of his forty something fights at lightweight, HE ONLY LOST TWICE. And that was with Duran. So how he is POOR FIGHTER?

WE NEVER KNOW. Esteban was a lightweight. Leonard was a welterweight.

elmersalsa wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:[quote="keithmoonhangover]

The point is, Duran didn't beat anyone as good as Hearns at Lightweight. Do you agree with that statement?

No, he did not and you are right. You could only fight what is in front of you.
But that does not mean that Leonard was superior. He whupped Leonard in the biggest fight of his career. And he had to jump two classes to do it.....How about that?

[/quote]

Do you also agree that Leonard didn't lose to anyone as poor as Dejesus at welterweight?[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Esteban DeJesus was an excellent fighter. No shame on that. He is a top 20 all time lightweight by The Ring Magazine. I agree with that. Out of his forty something fights at lightweight, HE ONLY LOST TWICE. And that was with Duran. So how he is POOR FIGHTER?

WE NEVER KNOW. Esteban was a lightweight. Leonard was a welterweight.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

I didn't say he was a poor fighter, he was a very good fighter.

My question is did Leonard lose to a fighter of the same level as Dejesus, when Leonard was at Welter/Light Middle?

[quote="Ambling Alp]

No like almost always, you are wrong, in many ways.

First, Gomez had just won the super bantamweight championship when Duran was the lightweight champion. That is three weight classes below Duran. A win over Gomez in 1977 would have meant virtually nothing.

2nd - What exactly does "challenge" mean? You don't know that Arguello did not want a fight with Duran.
3rd - We don't know that Duran would have beat Arguello. We know that Leonard would beat Hearns, because it actually happened.
4th - Hearns was the only true welter Leonard ever beat? How stupid. He beat 8 Top 10 contenders before he ever got a title shot.
5th -Duran was a true welterweight when Leonard made Duran quit like a baby. He had been for years. Benitez was a true welterweight for years.
You keep overlooking that Duran (and Benitez) had fought many times as welterweights. Almost everybody moves up in weight. Deal with it.[/quote]

Yeah, it would not meant nothing right? But Duran jumped to 12 pounds to fight at welter. Gomez would have jumped 13 pounds. Not a big difference there.

All I'm saying that is the SAME EQUIVALENT of Duran fighting Leonard.

Arguello KNEW he couldn't beat Duran. He lost to TWO FIGHTER THAT DURAN BEAT: Ernesto Marcel and Vilomar Fernandez. And you question Duran's quality of opposition. The EVIDENCE is there that he backed off from the challenge after he saw that he lost to Fernandez. It was a super fight of the 70s in which Duran was supposed to get a $300,000 pay day. He LOOKED THE OTHER WAY. HE DID NOT LOOKED THE OTHER WAY with Jim Watt, right? What a coincidence!
And what do you mean that we do not know if Duran wouldn't beat Arguello? Duran WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO MUCH FOR HIM.

HEARNS WAS THE ONLY TRUE AND REAL WELTER THAT LEONARD BEAT.

Duran was a lightweight and Benitez a jr welter. We are talking about quality of opposition, here. Take Duran and Benitez out of Leonard's ledger, and THE ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT WOULD BE HEARNS.
DURAN NEVER FOUGHT NOBODY BELOW HIS WEIGHT CLASS. HE DID NOT HAD THAT LUXURY. You just cannot go by quality of opposition when the other guy had guys PETRIFIED TO FIGHT HIM.

TAKEISHA HEARNS AND DURAN FROM the grateful Marvin Hagler and he got NOTHING. BUT HE WAS A GREAT MIDDLEWEIGHT.


Duran JUMPED TWO WEIGHT CLASS ES AND WHUPPED LEONARD. THAT IS REMARKABLE.

NO FEATHERWEIGHT, NOR JR LIGHTWEIGHT NOR SUPER BANTAMWEIGHT, AND NOT EVENT A JR WELTER, CHALLENGED DURAN?

I WONDER WHY.

This is excruciating

Agreed. Not really that funny anymore.
He actually believes his BS.
He has no comprehension skills whatsoever.
Saying the same dumba$$ things over and over and ignoring other people's comments doesn't make someone right.