Mike Tyson is so overrated by casual fans

[badkatt]

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[SaadOffTheDeck]

For me it is not so much whether Tyson was great or not. It's the snobbery attached to the 'casual fan' comment. The nonsense is that if anyone dare think Tyson was a great fighter then they know nothing and if you can't see that you are a moron. Stop trying to sit yourself on the top table imparting your wisdom, it's flawed and conceited.

I think you're being a somewhat disingenuous here, no one is saying Mile Tyson wasn't a great fighter, in fact, some of the discussion here is in relation to his fights with other all-time heavyweight greats and just how good a boxer he actually was. The ocer theme seems to be that he was a great heavyweight, just not the greatest ever (who really is?) that casual fans and non-followers of the sport believe he is.

It goes both ways then. Over Rated and a Great Fighter at the same time? Just how over rated was Tyson then since we agree he was a great fighter?

Nobody rates crap. Of course you can be great and overrated at the same time. Though I do understand your point.

[Undefeated49-0]

Tyson's life was a car crash after he won the title, the money and fame ruined him. I don't even think he trained that hard for most of his fights after winning the title, he was too good without even trying too hard. His aura, bullying nature and menacing appearance won him most fights before the bell rang. It doesn't add up that someone with such a chaotic lifestyle outside the ring then trains properly. Someone out partying, drinking and taking coke isn't going to have the discipline to prepare for fights, that's just common sense. Even when they do train their hardcore lifestyle would take its toll so they would never be as fit as they could be.

There is simply no way to sit here and say that the Tyson that fought Douglas was the same Tyson that destroyed Spinks in terms of where he was mentally. I'm not trying to make excuses for Mike because I have said that he was overrated but let's just keep it real here and examine what was going on with him at the moment:

He was clearly using and abusing Cocaine on a regular basis (no secret there)
No longer with Rooney (a man he respected and feared enough to train to his absolute best)
Had the worst corner in history vs Douglas, they were so ill prepared that they used a Balloon filled with water to keep his swelling down
He had been knocked down in sparring and dazed badly before that bout (this had never happened to him before)
He had Don King as his Manager/Promoter that was ripping him off
He had Robin Givens and her gold digging mom taking him to the cleaners at the same time, plus his credibility was totally ruined on national TV during that time appearing on Barbara Walters show.
He had been accused of raping Desiree Washington while she sat on his face
He was forced into training for the Douglas fight and was in Tokyo in brothels and hotels with Japanese women two and three at a time days before the bout (not really a bad thing at all but bad for when you are prepping for a fight).
He lost his aura of invincibility after Douglas beat the crap outta him.

There is no way in hell was he even remotely the same after coming out of prison and after the worse asswhuppin he ever took in his life at the hands of Douglas going into a bout with Holyfield and that it isn't take credit away from either of them or to say that he wouldn't have lost to either had the above not been the case but we most definitely would've seen a totally different Tyson that's for certain.

Now I said all of this to say that these aren't necessarily excuses for Tyson but

[Wales]

Don King went to Holmes house and said "Ive got you a fight against someone i know you can beat"
Holmes said " who is it?"
"Mike Tyson" King replied
Holmes then said "Are you crazy I cant beat Mike Tyson, no thanks, dont want the fight"
"I'll give you three and a half million dollars" said King

Holmes simply replied.....

"Where Mike at?"

all about the $$$$$$. Holmes wasnt getting no tune ups or preperation. He was overpaid silly money to come in as a name and get sparked out with almost zero risk.

I don't buy that. Holmes had a huge ego, I don't believe he would take a fight that he didn't think he could win and then not train properly for it.

Here is Holmes being interviewed after the Tyson/Biggs fight on the 16th October 1987, just over 3 months before he fought Tyson on the 22nd January 1988. King is with Holmes and confirms the Tyson fight was taking place in January. Even then Holmes mentions sparring 15 rounds so his condition couldn't have been that bad, so he was in training with 3 months to go, hardly short notice. As he says he didn't need the money and he wouldn't take the fight if he didn't think he could win. Holmes was very bitter about the Spinks 'losses' and saw this as his chance to regain the title. He saw his layoff as a positive thing as he regained his passion and his body needed a rest. Long breaks aren't always bad as SRL showed against Hagler and he was out for almost 3 years. There was 1 year 9 month gap between Holmes losing to Spinks and fighting Tyson, to put that into perspective Andre Ward went 1 year 7 months between fights not so long ago. We are talking about Holmes here, one of the greatest heavyweights in history in some peoples opinion and ranked in most people's top 3 or 5 I would guess.

Larry Holmes on his response to Don King when approached to fight Mike Tyson:

"What I remember was Don King knocking at my door around 9 at night. I was retired two years. Don said he wanted me to fight somebody he said he knew I could beat. I asked him who, and he said, 'Mike Tyson.' I said I can't beat Mike Tyson.

"Don said, 'What if I give you 3 ½ million dollars?,' and I said, 'Where's Mike at?' I'm just glad he didn't kill me. He knocked me down a few times, but I didn't feel it because the first time he hit me I was numb.

"After the fight Mike said he loved me and I said, 'Why'd you knock out my ass?' Mike's a great guy. I'm glad Mike beat me that day, or else I'd have nothing to talk about."



Mike Tyson on the fight:

"It was a great opportunity to be in the ring with one of the great fighters of all time. It was a milestone in my career. He didn't have time to prepare. I never fought the great Larry Holmes. I had no delusions. By all means, I didn't fight the Holmes who fought Muhammad Ali.

"I was very objective in the ring, nothing personal, but I'd have hit my mother. If I had mercy on him, he may have knocked my ass out. He didn't have enough time to prepare when he fought me. Don didn't give him the opportunity."

[Wales]

Mike Tyson beat many decent fighters. There are too many to mention, but you can see them on his resume

Too many to mention... Like?

[SNG]

Mike Tyson beat many decent fighters. There are too many to mention, but you can see them on his resume

Too many to mention... Like?

Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Tubbs, Holmes, Biggs, Bruno, Ruddock.

All decent, maybe not great and I know Holmes was passed it but still, they're hardly a resume of bums.

[SNG]

I do think Tyson is overrated by the casual, but I also think he's underrated by the fans too. He isn't a top ten heavyweight and the killer some think he is, but he isn't the bum some think he is either. Tyson was a monster in the 80s, he never beat a top fighter when the fighter was at his peak, but he beat everyone around in his peak, Tyson was done after prison, if not before, but he was a dangerous fighter and I'd fancy him to beat a few I'd consider top ten.

[greg]

I do think Tyson is overrated by the casual, but I also think he's underrated by the fans too. He isn't a top ten heavyweight and the killer some think he is, but he isn't the bum some think he is either. Tyson was a monster in the 80s, he never beat a top fighter when the fighter was at his peak, but he beat everyone around in his peak, Tyson was done after prison, if not before, but he was a dangerous fighter and I'd fancy him to beat a few I'd consider top ten.

..that's how I see it today..in the 80s I was just enjoing to see him destroy his opponents thinking he was the best...

[Controversial]

Larry Holmes on his response to Don King when approached to fight Mike Tyson:

"What I remember was Don King knocking at my door around 9 at night. I was retired two years. Don said he wanted me to fight somebody he said he knew I could beat. I asked him who, and he said, 'Mike Tyson.' I said I can't beat Mike Tyson.

"Don said, 'What if I give you 3 ½ million dollars?,' and I said, 'Where's Mike at?' I'm just glad he didn't kill me. He knocked me down a few times, but I didn't feel it because the first time he hit me I was numb.

"After the fight Mike said he loved me and I said, 'Why'd you knock out my ass?' Mike's a great guy. I'm glad Mike beat me that day, or else I'd have nothing to talk about."

Mike Tyson on the fight:

"It was a great opportunity to be in the ring with one of the great fighters of all time. It was a milestone in my career. He didn't have time to prepare. I never fought the great Larry Holmes. I had no delusions. By all means, I didn't fight the Holmes who fought Muhammad Ali.

"I was very objective in the ring, nothing personal, but I'd have hit my mother. If I had mercy on him, he may have knocked my ass out. He didn't have enough time to prepare when he fought me. Don didn't give him the opportunity."

The source of these comments? Watch the video, its clearly dated over 3 months before their fight and Holmes mentions sparring 15 rounds, so not short notice at all and he was clearly in training. Do you seriously think Holmes would say he's glad he got beat as he wouldn't have anything to talk about? It's clearly been made up by someone. I take the video evidence over dubious comments anyone can make/edit on the internet.

[Wales]

Mike Tyson beat many decent fighters. There are too many to mention, but you can see them on his resume

Too many to mention... Like?

Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Tubbs, Holmes, Biggs, Bruno, Ruddock.

All decent, maybe not great and I know Holmes was passed it but still, they're hardly a resume of bums.

Hardly murderous row either. Infact, a decidedly average bunch, at best. Tyrell Biggs as one of your best wins. Even more so if you look at other HWs resume.

Granted can only beat hats in front of you, but there was nothing infromt of him. Best win? Spinks? Tucker..... Come on, garbage

[Controversial]

Too many to mention... Like?

Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Tubbs, Holmes, Biggs, Bruno, Ruddock.

All decent, maybe not great and I know Holmes was passed it but still, they're hardly a resume of bums.

Hardly murderous row either. Infact, a decidedly average bunch, at best. Tyrell Biggs as one of your best wins. Even more so if you look at other HWs resume.

Granted can only beat hats in front of you, but there was nothing infromt of him. Best win? Spinks? Tucker..... Come on, garbage

You can use this argument with any heavyweight of the modern era. List the five best wins of Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe or the Klitschkos, they can all be made to look average if you want to spin the argument that way.

[Tony1244]

Too many to mention... Like?

Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Tubbs, Holmes, Biggs, Bruno, Ruddock.

All decent, maybe not great and I know Holmes was passed it but still, they're hardly a resume of bums.

Hardly murderous row either. Infact, a decidedly average bunch, at best. Tyrell Biggs as one of your best wins. Even more so if you look at other HWs resume.

Granted can only beat hats in front of you, but there was nothing infromt of him. Best win? Spinks? Tucker..... Come on, garbage

You can use this philosophy against anybody. Joe Louis beat Jack Roper and Tommy Farr; hardly world beaters. Ali beat Chuvalo and Ernie Terrell; same idea. Klitschkos: Mormeck and Chambers.

[matthewcb]

The worst is "[Unproven Prospect] is the next Mike Tyson!" especially since they often don't even have a similar fighting style.

Paging Eddie Hearn, paging Eddie Hearn.

[bbjc]

Tyson is underated nowadays.

For a short period he was one of the best. Granted it fell apart pretty quickly through his own doing.

In terms of career it would be stupid to rate him top 5 etc.

But in terms of how good he was at a certain time he was up there.

It really was unusual circumstances that mike came about. I dont think we ll see another mike tyson tbh.

You ve got to remember foremann. Ali. Holyfield were training as amatuers for years. Going to local boxing clubs etc. Whereas the difference with mike was he was basically training like a professional from the start. And a lot harder than most professionals at that. With a guy who knew the ins and outs of boxing.

Not many kids have the oppertunity to get one on one with a guy thats already had a world champion etc from as young an age as mike did.

On top of that i reckon cus really was a great trainer way ahead of his time.

It was an odd set up but thats what allowed mike to become as good as he was for that short time. And still the youngest heavyweight champion in an era you had to actually fight someone to get a belt.

Sure it was roy jones juniors dad that said. If you want extraordinary results you ve got to use extraordinary measures.

[bbjc]

Its one of the few times that the casuals get right and the fans show themselves up to an extent.

The things tyson done in the ring. Not talking about just going in there and bashing people up.

If fans cant see it...i d question if they know as much as they think they know about boxing.

I ve barely seen a heavyweight with decent head movement since tyson. Its a lost art these days.

All in agreement that tysons career was unfulfilled in the end. I dont think the casuals even argue that. But in terms of mike tyson that was rooney trained. He was up there with the best of them...or he would have been if they continued to follow the same path anyway.

[Undefeated49-0]

Tyson's best win was against Spinks (a blown up LHW), when he fought Holyfield he got owned with headbutts also but nevertheless he was clearly outboxed.

Tyson should've did what he was able to do against an old/washed up Holmes, Berbick, Bonecrusher and all these other older cats.

[bbjc]

Tyson at his peak would have beat holyfield.

And i rate holyfield highly.

Even when they did fight years after mike was actually great very few had holyfield down to win.

Holyfield was quality. Holyfield had the much better career.

But

Tyson would have battered him if they fought in their primes.

What holyfield faced was a tyson that still had his one punch power but little else.

What he would have faced was a tyson who punched in combinations. Had much better stamina. Had terrific head movement. And more importantly trained the way that allowed tyson to be as great as he was in the first place with trainers in his corner that knew ehat they were doing with mike.

[Undefeated49-0]

Tyson at his peak would have beat holyfield.

And i rate holyfield highly.

Even when they did fight years after mike was actually great very few had holyfield down to win.

Holyfield was quality. Holyfield had the much better career.

But

Tyson would have battered him if they fought in their primes.

What holyfield faced was a tyson that still had his one punch power but little else.

What he would have faced was a tyson who punched in combinations. Had much better stamina. Had terrific head movement. And more importantly trained the way that allowed tyson to be as great as he was in the first place with trainers in his corner that knew ehat they were doing with mike.

We don't know that and cannot say that with certainty. That is just your opinion of which you are entitled to but that doesn't make it a fact!!

[bbjc]

It is a forum afterall mate. That is just my opinion. Not claiming it as fact.


Or it is...but just in my mind anyway.

[Syntax Error]

Tyson at his peak would have beat holyfield.

And i rate holyfield highly.

Even when they did fight years after mike was actually great very few had holyfield down to win.

Holyfield was quality. Holyfield had the much better career.

But

Tyson would have battered him if they fought in their primes.

What holyfield faced was a tyson that still had his one punch power but little else.

What he would have faced was a tyson who punched in combinations. Had much better stamina. Had terrific head movement. And more importantly trained the way that allowed tyson to be as great as he was in the first place with trainers in his corner that knew ehat they were doing with mike.

You make it sound as if Holyfied was in his peak when he fought Tyson.

Holyfield was arguably further gone than Tyson, but the difference was that Holyfield was too mentally as well as physically tough for Tyson to overcome.

[Taki...]

A lot of these arguments are style over substance. Tyson looked great in his very short 'prime' period, but the only 'great' fighters he beat were Spinks -- a LHW -- and a semi retired Larry Holmes.
Tyson, through his own poor choices, pissed away the potential to add more substantive names to his W column. That wasted potential just isn't a reason to rate him above the likes of Lewis, Holyfield or Bowe.

[gilgamesh]

Tyson at his peak would have beat holyfield.

And i rate holyfield highly.

Even when they did fight years after mike was actually great very few had holyfield down to win.

Holyfield was quality. Holyfield had the much better career.

But

Tyson would have battered him if they fought in their primes.

What holyfield faced was a tyson that still had his one punch power but little else.

What he would have faced was a tyson who punched in combinations. Had much better stamina. Had terrific head movement. And more importantly trained the way that allowed tyson to be as great as he was in the first place with trainers in his corner that knew ehat they were doing with mike.

Tyson never would've beaten Holyfield.

[fanman]

Agreed tyson wouldnt have beat holy. Too much heart. Still tyson was greatbeyond doubt and a threat to any in history. And whatsmore being a small man.

[amwsnw]

I am tired of fat old men who complain about "prime Tyson"


Stop act like Tyson was an old fat man against Buster Douglas. Tyson was only 24 years old .

Mike Tyson actualy lost against any decent fighter he ever faced .


Let's be real . FAT OLD FOREMAN went 12 rounds against prime Evander and Mike Tyson got KTFO oh my godness !


Lennox Lewis , Vitali Klitschko , Ali , Foreman and many others would beat your overrated hero "prime" Tyson.

Tyson was in his prime against Douglas , stop act like he was old or fat or morons !

Yes he is overrated by casual supporters but ffs give him credit. We will never know how a prime Tyson would go against any of those above. Tyson was not in his prime against Lewis. That said I doubt he could ever have beaten evander.

[bbjc]

Did odds ever get put up for the original holyfield v tyson fight. The one that was touted before tyson went to prison.

This was after the douglas defeat. Pretty confident them odds would have favoured tyson by a good way.

People talk about who tyson fought. But it wasnt just about who he fought but how he beat them. He pretty much battered them all.

Talk about spinks being his best win and he was just a light heavy. But spinks was a highly regarded fighter. Regardless tyson took him apart with ease. Spinks was scared to come to the ring.

Nowadays the 80,s heavyweights are downplayed. But it was actually a decent era for it. It was only downplayed back then because of the golden era of the 70,s. But they were still serious fighters.

Tyson was 20 years old when he not only won the heavyweight championship but destroyed berbick. Knocked him down about 3 times with the same punch.

Around that time he would have battered holyfield. Who did afterall lose to bowe. I m not playing down holyfield cause i rate him highly. But tyson would have beat him. Just not tyson after rooney left.

Think from the next fight you could see he was a much poorer fighter. Bruno had him in trouble. Then a few fights later tyson turned up to fight fouglas like a zombie.

Douglas deserves credit for it. But i think i would have beat tyson on the nite.

See things like douglas would have beat him on any given nite etc. Although it was a great story. Douglas only looked good because tyson was so bad. His lifestyle and everything else finally caught up with him.

But young tyson wasnt hype. He would have beat them all if he stuck to the plan. The problem was the plan was flawed from the start. No one would have stuck to it. Even level headed guys like lewis.

The training they were doing from about 14 would put a lot of fully fledged professionals to shame. Thats why respected fighters like spinks were scared to come out there dressing room to fight him