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Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2026, 16:14

gilgamesh wrote: ↑13 Aug 2026, 17:23

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑13 Aug 2026, 17:06

Sure but there's no evidence to suggest Wilder was ever the best heavyweight in the world.

Back in the day title reigns were considered significant because the guy holding the title was the best in the world

Pinklon Thomas wasn't the best in the world at any point in his life. Larry Holmes was the Heavyweight Boss. Pinklon was a Titlist.

Nope I would favor Thomas over Holmes in 84/85. Holmes also refused to fight Thomas

Whether you would have favored him or not doesn't matter. He wasn't the Champion. Larry was. Pinklon was a titleholder. Same as Witherspoon, Tubbs, Tucker, Weaver and so many others of the era. He was one of the better ones, and you may be right that he would've beaten Larry Holmes in 84 or 85...but he didn't.

There is article on the internet about Tyson Ruddick 2. Kind said he offered Bowe a fight but the 4 Million was not enough for Roch Newman. King should have offered a bit more..

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UPI Archives Jan. 6, 1991
Riddick Bowe's manager says King has offered fight with Tyson
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WASHINGTON -- Promoter Don King has offered Washington-based undefeated heavyweight Riddick Bowe a June fight with former heavyweight champion Mike Tyson, Bowe's manager said Sunday.

Bowe's manager Rock Newman said King made the offer Saturday during a meeting in LasVegas, Nev.

Newman said he would review King's offer for a week before deciding whether to accept or reject it.

'Don talked conceptually but made the offer,' Newman said. 'Any fight we take is a fight we think Riddick can win. We would take a Tyson fight on the merit of a Tyson fight alone and what it could mean to the career of Riddick Bowe.'

Tyson's has a March 18 fight scheduled with Canadian Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock. King said that if Tyson beats Ruddock, he would fight Bowe in June while waiting to challenge the winner of the April 19 bout between champion Evander Holyfield and George Foreman.

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'That seems to be Tyson's plan,' Newman said.

Newman said he would talk with Holyfield's promoter Dan Duva to see where Bowe fits into the champion's fight plan before deciding whether to commit Bowe to a fight with Tyson.


'But a Tyson fight is something Eddie (Futch, Bowe's trainer) is interested in, and I'm interested in,' Newman said.

Like Tyson, Bowe is originally from Brooklyn, N.Y. He now lives in Washington. Bowe last week signed a two-fight deal with ABC. He will fight Tyrell Biggs March 2 and an undetermined opponent April 20.

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gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2026, 19:15

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2026, 16:14

gilgamesh wrote: ↑13 Aug 2026, 17:23

Pinklon Thomas wasn't the best in the world at any point in his life. Larry Holmes was the Heavyweight Boss. Pinklon was a Titlist.

Nope I would favor Thomas over Holmes in 84/85. Holmes also refused to fight Thomas

Whether you would have favored him or not doesn't matter. He wasn't the Champion. Larry was. Pinklon was a titleholder. Same as Witherspoon, Tubbs, Tucker, Weaver and so many others of the era. He was one of the better ones, and you may be right that he would've beaten Larry Holmes in 84 or 85...but he didn't.

It's rare that I agree with Cojimar but Pinklon was widely regarded as no 1 in 85. Holmes was old and slipping, eking past Williams and losing to Spinks whereas Thomas dominated Spoon who many thought beat Holmes. This was written in the boxing media at the time and, I'm sure, will be mentioned on air in HBO broadcasts for those whose only research tool is YouTube.

Widely considered maybe. Proven as #1? Never

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 03:28 Widely considered maybe. Proven as #1? Never

Depends how much stock you put in Vegas judges I suppose. Spoon beat Holmes in 83, Pinky beat Spoon in 84.

Riddick Bowie wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 04:08

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 03:28 Widely considered maybe. Proven as #1? Never

Depends how much stock you put in Vegas judges I suppose. Spoon beat Holmes in 83, Pinky beat Spoon in 84.

Spoon didn't beat Holmes, but Thomas did do better against Spoon than Holmes did I'll give ya that.

There's a reason why it's considered a controversial decision. Boxing Monthly ranked it in their top 10 most controversial heavyweight title decisions.

Witherspoon definitely fought incredibly well in the fight. I personally thought Holmes edged it. I don't think anyone that thinks Witherspoon won it is crazy, it was close. Felt like a 1 point fight either way you'd have it.

How did Press Row have it?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2026, 19:15

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2026, 16:14

gilgamesh wrote: ↑13 Aug 2026, 17:23

Pinklon Thomas wasn't the best in the world at any point in his life. Larry Holmes was the Heavyweight Boss. Pinklon was a Titlist.

Nope I would favor Thomas over Holmes in 84/85. Holmes also refused to fight Thomas

Whether you would have favored him or not doesn't matter. He wasn't the Champion. Larry was. Pinklon was a titleholder. Same as Witherspoon, Tubbs, Tucker, Weaver and so many others of the era. He was one of the better ones, and you may be right that he would've beaten Larry Holmes in 84 or 85...but he didn't.

Thomas was as much a champion as Larry was. Of course it matters that I think he would beat Holmes. How on earth would that not matter?

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 20:04

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2026, 19:15

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2026, 16:14

Nope I would favor Thomas over Holmes in 84/85. Holmes also refused to fight Thomas

Whether you would have favored him or not doesn't matter. He wasn't the Champion. Larry was. Pinklon was a titleholder. Same as Witherspoon, Tubbs, Tucker, Weaver and so many others of the era. He was one of the better ones, and you may be right that he would've beaten Larry Holmes in 84 or 85...but he didn't.

Thomas was as much a champion as Larry was. Of course it matters that I think he would beat Holmes. How on earth would that not matter?

Holmes was the Lineal Heavyweight Champion. He won it from Muhammad Ali who had retired as Champion.

Pinklon Thomas was the WBA World Champion. A Titlist.

The 2 did not enjoy the same level of prosperity, notoriety or recognition.

Do you currently consider Murat Gassiev every bit as much a Champion as Oleksandr Usyk?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 22:44

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 20:04

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2026, 19:15

Whether you would have favored him or not doesn't matter. He wasn't the Champion. Larry was. Pinklon was a titleholder. Same as Witherspoon, Tubbs, Tucker, Weaver and so many others of the era. He was one of the better ones, and you may be right that he would've beaten Larry Holmes in 84 or 85...but he didn't.

Thomas was as much a champion as Larry was. Of course it matters that I think he would beat Holmes. How on earth would that not matter?

Holmes was the Lineal Heavyweight Champion. He won it from Muhammad Ali who had retired as Champion.

Pinklon Thomas was the WBA World Champion. A Titlist.

The 2 did not enjoy the same level of prosperity, notoriety or recognition.

Do you currently consider Murat Gassiev every bit as much a Champion as Oleksandr Usyk?

Pinklon Thomas was the WBC champion.

He held the WBC title because he beat Spoon.

Spoon held it because Holmes, the lineal champ, dumped the WBC title rather than rematch Spoon or face Greg Page.

I notice that everything is black and white with you. You don't seem to understand nuance or grey areas.

Riddick Bowie wrote: ↑22 Aug 2026, 04:32

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 22:44

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 20:04

Thomas was as much a champion as Larry was. Of course it matters that I think he would beat Holmes. How on earth would that not matter?

Holmes was the Lineal Heavyweight Champion. He won it from Muhammad Ali who had retired as Champion.

Pinklon Thomas was the WBA World Champion. A Titlist.

The 2 did not enjoy the same level of prosperity, notoriety or recognition.

Do you currently consider Murat Gassiev every bit as much a Champion as Oleksandr Usyk?

Pinklon Thomas was the WBC champion.

He held the WBC title because he beat Spoon.

Spoon held it because Holmes, the lineal champ, dumped the WBC title rather than rematch Spoon or face Greg Page.

I notice that everything is black and white with you. You don't seem to understand nuance or grey areas.

What the f*ck ever. He had a belt. Who gives a sh*t which one? I often think of all the temporary titlists of the 80's as WBA titleholders because they passed that one around in the 80's like a Hot Potato.

What exactly is it that you think I don't understand? You always seem hell bent to want to take a shot at me, but can't give any specifics of what you supposedly know that I don't.

I pick up on habits and traits of fighters, and am pretty good at making predictions on upcoming fights due to my recognition of patterns, and how one fighter's strengths may mesh with his opponents or vice versa. Especially if I get locked into really studying the guys styles before their bout.

I can tell you right now without any Shadow of a Doubt that in 10 years time Tiah Mai Ayton is the Greatest Female Boxer there's ever been. That's something that hasn't happened yet, but I pick up on the nuances of the game enough that I can tell you that this absolutely is going to happen.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑22 Aug 2026, 04:41

Riddick Bowie wrote: ↑22 Aug 2026, 04:32

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 22:44

Holmes was the Lineal Heavyweight Champion. He won it from Muhammad Ali who had retired as Champion.

Pinklon Thomas was the WBA World Champion. A Titlist.

The 2 did not enjoy the same level of prosperity, notoriety or recognition.

Do you currently consider Murat Gassiev every bit as much a Champion as Oleksandr Usyk?

Pinklon Thomas was the WBC champion.

He held the WBC title because he beat Spoon.

Spoon held it because Holmes, the lineal champ, dumped the WBC title rather than rematch Spoon or face Greg Page.

I notice that everything is black and white with you. You don't seem to understand nuance or grey areas.

What the f*ck ever. He had a belt. Who gives a sh*t which one? I often think of all the temporary titlists of the 80's as WBA titleholders because they passed that one around in the 80's like a Hot Potato.

What exactly is it that you think I don't understand? You always seem hell bent to want to take a shot at me, but can't give any specifics of what you supposedly know that I don't.

Read the post you're responding to.

It literally could not be spelled out any clearer.

So you can't give any specifics then? Just like usual? Great. You really contribute a lot bud.

The Spoon vs Page fight f*cking sucks ass by the way. God awful Heavyweight title fight. Their rematch many years later when they were both Old and Washed up was ironically a great fight, and one of Page's best wins honestly.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑22 Aug 2026, 05:30 So you can't give any specifics then? Just like usual? Great. You really contribute a lot bud.

The Spoon vs Page fight f*cking sucks ass by the way. God awful Heavyweight title fight. Their rematch many years later when they were both Old and Washed up was ironically a great fight, and one of Page's best wins honestly.

That's not the point, it is?

They're fighting because the lineal champ refused to fight either of them and vacated his title so he could fight cans. Then Thomas bosses Spoon. The lineal champ doesn't want to fight him either. Thomas blitzes Weaver on HBO and calls out the lineal champ. HBO wants it. The Ring wants it. The lineal champ instead wants to fight Kip Kane or a light heavyweight named M. Spinks.

The lineal champ is not inviolate. If he is, then Foreman Vs Grimsley is the real championship fight and the likes of Holyfield and Lewis are mere titlists.

Agree Page/Spoon 2 was good fun.

1984 and 1985 was the big Championship run for Pinklon Thomas. He beat Tim Witherspoon and Mike Weaver.

In 1984 and 1985 Holmes beat Bonecrusher Smith, David Bey and Carl Williams.

Holmes had already beaten Weaver many years prior to Thomas ever facing him. Holmes had already beaten Witherspoon prior to Thomas ever facing him. So Pinklon's 2 big wins came against people Larry had already beaten. Pretending that Thomas was somehow the superior Champion to Larry Holmes is just ridiculous, and I've never heard anyone attempt to make that argument before.

I want to see the best in you but you're beyond help.

Thomas really good for a awhile. He was never the lineal champion, which of course would have helped his case. But he was holder a title of a belt that meant something. It wasn't like it was the WBO title of the 1990s that virtually nobody cared about and has been retroactively made out to be a much bigger deal than it was.
He beat a very good fighter in Wither spoon and looked good in doing so. Thomas looked great in the Weaver fight was well.
it is too bad that Holmes would not fight him. Obviously, Holmes was past his best but a win over Holmes would still have meant something.

Thomas did fight too long and took a lot of punishment later on. It's too bad that some people focus on those fights way too much.
Thomas was not a legend but was way better than some people think he was.

Riddick Bowie wrote: ↑23 Aug 2026, 14:33 I want to see the best in you but you're beyond help.

Not true. Why just this week I've walked into at least 3 places of business and been asked "Can I help you?" and received the help I sought.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 22:44

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 20:04

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2026, 19:15

Whether you would have favored him or not doesn't matter. He wasn't the Champion. Larry was. Pinklon was a titleholder. Same as Witherspoon, Tubbs, Tucker, Weaver and so many others of the era. He was one of the better ones, and you may be right that he would've beaten Larry Holmes in 84 or 85...but he didn't.

Thomas was as much a champion as Larry was. Of course it matters that I think he would beat Holmes. How on earth would that not matter?

Holmes was the Lineal Heavyweight Champion. He won it from Muhammad Ali who had retired as Champion.

Pinklon Thomas was the WBA World Champion. A Titlist.

The 2 did not enjoy the same level of prosperity, notoriety or recognition.

Do you currently consider Murat Gassiev every bit as much a Champion as Oleksandr Usyk?

You can't win lineage by beating a retired former champ. Ali was no longer champion when he lost to Holmes thus you can't claim lineage by beating him.

He was also totally shot, suffering from parkinsons and probably shouldn't have been allowed to box

That's the only way you can claim lineage actually. By beating the man that beat the man. That's the definition of lineage.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑25 Aug 2026, 11:53

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 22:44

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2026, 20:04

Thomas was as much a champion as Larry was. Of course it matters that I think he would beat Holmes. How on earth would that not matter?

Holmes was the Lineal Heavyweight Champion. He won it from Muhammad Ali who had retired as Champion.

Pinklon Thomas was the WBA World Champion. A Titlist.

The 2 did not enjoy the same level of prosperity, notoriety or recognition.

Do you currently consider Murat Gassiev every bit as much a Champion as Oleksandr Usyk?

You can't win lineage by beating a retired former champ. Ali was no longer champion when he lost to Holmes thus you can't claim lineage by beating him.

He was also totally shot, suffering from parkinsons and probably shouldn't have been allowed to box

At the time, everyone knew that Holmes was the real champion before he fought Ali. People didn't talk much about the linear championship.

They don't have to talk about it. It's a common sense thing.

The Championship can only be taken from the Champion in the ring. It's Old School Purist Boxing mentality, and it's correct.

Rarely has the Heavyweight Championship lineage been disrupted for all that long. Gene Turner and Lennox Lewis are as of this moment the only 2 men to ever retire as Champion and never make an ill advised comeback to later lose it.

Jeffries, Ali and Joe Louis unfortunately did make that mistake.

But you guys are making a real solid argument here i tell ya what. Pinklon Thomas absolutely had to be better than Holmes by beating 2 people that Holmes had already previously beaten and then losing his title against another man that Holmes had already previously beaten.

When a lineal champion permanently retires a new lineage has to be created.
This is done when the current #1 and #2 in line fight each other.