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Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 02 Aug 2016, 13:54
by Kalan
Tuan_Jim wrote:Once again your Boxrec skimming fails you. Those of us watching Thompson at the time remember him lumbering to a points win over Paul Bonson(!) and being asked whether he was shot. Thompson had been KOd by the journeyman Ezra Sellers. Thompson was an old journeyman and had only a handful of fights in 3 years when he fought Haye. He was 40 and was getting beaten badly when he KOd Rothamann - a man coming out of his backyard in South Africa for the first time & was KOd several times after Thompson. Thompson bashed Haye. It happens.
"Stander didn't finish his career like Thompson with a World Title" - haha - the titles Thompson won didn't exist in Stander's day. Standers challenged the undisputed heavyweight title. Thomspon never got near a major world title, which is why he boxed for WBO and IBO belts.
Let's just say Thompson was a much better boxer than Stander... Stander had 1 win in his last 11 fights and he was fighting bottom of the barrel people... Thompson won 10 of his last 11 against much higher caliber people... So you're the guy who tries to twist history into supporting your BS.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 02 Aug 2016, 17:35
by Controversial
allInmoderationAIM wrote:
Hi Controversial. Thank you for that. But...may I ask how might you know these things?
Newspaper reports after the fight
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 02 Aug 2016, 19:34
by Kalan
allInmoderationAIM wrote:Basically, Shavers highs were much thicker and more rich Socially than Ron's were.
^ what I said on 25 July. Ron 36 vs Joe Bugner and 38 vs Scott LeDoux. Yeah O.K., I buy it! But don't forget...Ron didn't even turn pro until he was what age? 30, two months and 11 days! So, his whole shebang is created while he is in his 30's. I APPRECIATE RON LYLE!
His first real test came in his #8 vs Manuel Ramos who was 24-19-3 by then. That resulted in WUD-10.
Two bouts later, Lyle gets another good test matched w/ Giant Jack O'Halloran. Here he scores a 4r KO (10).
Then next, he meets -a- Bill Drover w/nice numbers 31-9-3 (Drover had a 10r draw vs Bugner in 1971; LUD-10 vs Jose Luis Garcia in 1970). Then, Ron had a good run before Quarry. Then..against Jerry of course.. now you could say he runs into a damper. When he comes back..he did opposite of Shavers when he wins UD-10 vs Bob Stallings (Shavers, I know you remember lost decision vs Bob Stallings). Next, a 12-1 record -loss to Jimmy Young- over the next 26 months put him into the match against Ali/ championship.
There...Lyle does distinctly well actually before, Ali lulls him off course in a late round.
After Ali was Shavers, 49-4-1 a.t.t. And then four months past Shavers, was Foreman match.
Past Foreman, 8 mo., Lyle won against journeyman Kevin Isaac. Then two months past Isaac, he rematch Jimmy Young. Now 12 r. Again, Young would win. Young, Lyle, Shavers have a pretty strong triangle. And I am sure you are aware of that.
Past the fight with Jimmy Young now he comes to Joe Bugner. Your saying Ron past it at this point. Joe is 27 and Ron is 36 by now.
And the Scott LeDoux match is further away still [watched that film now..where they each nearly knock one another out..several times...]
Career, a.t. NORTON, SHAVERS, LYLE in that order.
Kalan where would you rate JERRY QUARRY in there?? Oh, but you got to use the pegs established! : )
GEORGE CHUVALO?
I like them THREE because, in my vision it is clear cut. Probably there are other THREE PICKS that also have same definition.
Active fighters I normally do not like to include in a.t. until they have been inactive/retired at least five years!
Quarry was a very small Heavyweight but had great fights with Mac Foster, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Buster Mathis, and Thad Spencer.. His 2 fights with Tony Doyle showed an amazing contrast because often Jerry boxed very poorly, but sometimes he did well.. If Quarry had a nagging injury or a poor camp it would throw him off.. He would say things like "My neck is stiff. I feel lousy. I have no strength, NOTHING!!!" He would go out there with an angry face and fight the dumbest fight possible. Quarry wanted to fight Foreman because he liked "big, slow swingers" like Shavers, Mac Foster, and Lyle.. I think Foreman would have been a disaster because he was bigger and stronger than Lyle.. Foreman was a little inconsistent himself, but if he was on his game you didn't want to be a little guy in there.
Lyle did a good job of boxing Ali for 11 rounds. He studied Ali's fights and thought he could out-jab Ali and outbox him. That's something his trainers said was suicide but Lyle was a stubborn guy. "If I attack him I'll end up like Foreman. I know I can out-box him." ... It was one of those crazy ideas that nobody thinks will fly.. It almost worked for Lyle because he was ahead on 2 cards. One judge had him 6 points ahead.. Lyle said he was taking a round off, trying to get Ali to throw some punches and expend some energy, so he could close stronger. If you're ahead in the 11th round of a world Title Fight it's no time to sit back and take a break.
Norton was an accident looking for a place to happen.. His cross armed defense and the way he leaned in with his head.. He was a big puncher's dream.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 02 Aug 2016, 23:44
by allInmoderationAIM
Controversial wrote:allInmoderationAIM wrote:
Hi Controversial. Thank you for that. But...may I ask how might you know these things?
Newspaper reports after the fight
Did you remember this all these years? You
own the news copy? Or, you linked to
It?
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 03 Aug 2016, 00:00
by allInmoderationAIM
Kalan, you write like a pro! It is like employment matching you, too! I mean, my employment could get in way!
Doyle's name of course not the same league. Though, that's interesting.
Ken was especially vulnerable vs Shavers from what I've been lead to believe. Ernie hooks from the side?
You haven't much looked at Norton-Ali 1??
I thought Ken boxing masterfully, He befuddled Ali..
Also, what you say about Lyle-LeDoux scoring Ah....one point scores all around. [You have any insights on boxing Officials?]. According to the announcers (Ken Norton one..) Lyle certainly won but...I would need to watch same tape a number of times. Scott did marvelous in that FIGHT!
I'll look here further at the record. For now few chores and to bed. Tomorrow must shake-a-leg!
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 03 Aug 2016, 01:38
by Controversial
allInmoderationAIM wrote:Controversial wrote:allInmoderationAIM wrote:
Hi Controversial. Thank you for that. But...may I ask how might you know these things?
Newspaper reports after the fight
Did you remember this all these years? You
own the news copy? Or, you linked to
It?
Links to various reports, here's one.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 6728&hl=en
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 03 Aug 2016, 23:13
by Kalan
allInmoderationAIM wrote:I thought Ken boxing masterfully, He befuddled Ali..
He didn't so much befuddle Ali and crowd him... put him in corners... and beat him up... it was a beat down more than boxing job... Master boxers boxed the Hell out of Foreman, but George crushed Norton like a roach.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 04 Aug 2016, 01:51
by allInmoderationAIM
Ah! Different language that's all. Ken moving like a SNAKE in there!
"Timing". Ken was paralyzed by fear that one. It was George Time. A special time-line and their could only be one supreme player at those moments.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 04 Aug 2016, 01:54
by allInmoderationAIM
Controversial wrote:allInmoderationAIM wrote:Controversial wrote:
Newspaper reports after the fight
Did you remember this all these years? You
own the news copy? Or, you linked to
It?
Links to various reports, here's one.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 6728&hl=en
Hard to read it, (very). Thank you! I could read some of it! Cool!
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 04 Aug 2016, 01:58
by allInmoderationAIM
-&- Kalan..what I SEE in the Ali- Norton matches 1,2 is Ali not even being able to look AT Ken straight. Norton would be R., Ali would throw L.
He just was utterly confused by Ken.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 04 Aug 2016, 06:22
by Controversial
allInmoderationAIM wrote:
Hard to read it, (very). Thank you! I could read some of it! Cool!
No problem. It shouldn't be hard to read, it's fine for me although I do have a large screen. Are you using a smartphone or tablet?
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 04 Aug 2016, 08:23
by Ezzard
I'd pick Johnson.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 04 Aug 2016, 21:54
by allInmoderationAIM
Controversial wrote:allInmoderationAIM wrote:
Hard to read it, (very). Thank you! I could read some of it! Cool!
No problem. It shouldn't be hard to read, it's fine for me although I do have a large screen. Are you using a smartphone or tablet?
Smartphone. I could read the top. I do believe you on what you say! (Too). I think I'll text it to myself then copy it to notes. Maybe that way I can magnify it! Where are you by the way?
You come thru good. I can sense you have really good sense!
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 04 Aug 2016, 22:30
by allInmoderationAIM
Yeah. I picked up more of it this time. Is there one confused part in third column about damage to Lyle? (The Horse racing pix at Yonkers reminds me of my friend Gene w/his deli inside the Horse betting place here. & I visit him often each week)
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 04 Aug 2016, 22:56
by Controversial
allInmoderationAIM wrote:
Smartphone. I could read the top. I do believe you on what you say! (Too). I think I'll text it to myself then copy it to notes. Maybe that way I can magnify it! Where are you by the way?
You come thru good. I can sense you have really good sense!
allInmoderationAIM wrote:Yeah. I picked up more of it this time. Is there one confused part in third column about damage to Lyle? (The Horse racing pix at Yonkers reminds me of my friend Gene w/his deli inside the Horse betting place here. & I visit him often each week)
I'm in the UK. It says Lyle suffered a lump to his forehead in the first round from a Newton uppercut, but basically it seems Newton ran, held and wrestled for most of the fight.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 14:24
by Kalan
allInmoderationAIM wrote:-&- Kalan..what I SEE in the Ali- Norton matches 1,2 is Ali not even being able to look AT Ken straight. Norton would be R., Ali would throw L.
He just was utterly confused by Ken.
He wasn't so much confused.. Ali had poor footwork---and if you cut the ring off on Ali he ended up on the ropes.. Norton took his time and worked Ali on the ropes---like Frazier did.. Foreman went apeshlt when he got Ali on the ropes -- which is something you teach sub-novice amateurs NOT to do.. A boxer has the advantage when his opponent is on the ropes.. You pop him between the gloves.. in the nose.. on the ears.. in the kidneys.. in the stomach.. He can't cover every scoring area behind his arms and gloves all at once...and you take your sweet time about it, because it's your round... Your opponent isn't doing a damned thing but hiding behind his gloves and baiting you ... This makes a horrible impression on the judges because you're doing all the work and he's goofing off.
So I thought Norton won all 3 Ali fights -- but he had to do more because it's Muhammad Ali... And Norton shouldn't have run his yap so much in the 3rd fight.. Mouthing off is Ali's game.. And yelling and screaming at Ali that he beat him right after the fight didn't make a great impression on the judges.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 17:15
by allInmoderationAIM
Kalan wrote:allInmoderationAIM wrote:-&- Kalan..what I SEE in the Ali- Norton matches 1,2 is Ali not even being able to look AT Ken straight. Norton would be R., Ali would throw L.
He just was utterly confused by Ken.
He wasn't so much confused.. Ali had poor footwork---and if you cut the ring off on Ali he ended up on the ropes.. Norton took his time and worked Ali on the ropes---like Frazier did.. Foreman went apeshlt when he got Ali on the ropes -- which is something you teach sub-novice amateurs NOT to do.. A boxer has the advantage when his opponent is on the ropes.. You pop him between the gloves.. in the nose.. on the ears.. in the kidneys.. in the stomach.. He can't cover every scoring area behind his arms and gloves all at once...and you take your sweet time about it, because it's your round... Your opponent isn't doing a damned thing but hiding behind his gloves and baiting you ... This makes a horrible impression on the judges because you're doing all the work and he's goofing off.
So I thought Norton won all 3 Ali fights -- but he had to do more because it's Muhammad Ali... And Norton shouldn't have run his yap so much in the 3rd fight.. Mouthing off is Ali's game.. And yelling and screaming at Ali that he beat him right after the fight didn't make a great impression on the judges.
Kalan! I'll accept that! Good job! Are you a Trainer? You know, the Fighter fights; the trainer gets the fighter ready. But...in the fight itself/w/me....I found it best only to ASK corner *one finger to my lips! How come Trainers won't practice 'instructing' durring practice and then in a real match expect you to be able to take in?
I'm not saying I couldn't listen if we developed it but, most part trainers only shut-me-down in real match. I know what to do. Let me get into my trance and be natural. But..IF the trainer could make the difference certainly then I'd want it!
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 17:22
by allInmoderationAIM
Controversial wrote:allInmoderationAIM wrote:
Smartphone. I could read the top. I do believe you on what you say! (Too). I think I'll text it to myself then copy it to notes. Maybe that way I can magnify it! Where are you by the way?
You come thru good. I can sense you have really good sense!
allInmoderationAIM wrote:Yeah. I picked up more of it this time. Is there one confused part in third column about damage to Lyle? (The Horse racing pix at Yonkers reminds me of my friend Gene w/his deli inside the Horse betting place here. & I visit him often each week)
I'm in the UK. It says Lyle suffered a lump to his forehead in the first round from a Newton uppercut, but basically it seems Newton ran, held and wrestled for most of the fight.
Oh Thank you! I've been to London 5X. Always had FUN [got into a Street fight at Pickadelli Circle one night with a bloat from Scotland]
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 17:23
by allInmoderationAIM
^ ^ ARE U gonna attend Gennady Vs Kell Brook??
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 18:16
by Kalan
allInmoderationAIM wrote:Kalan wrote:allInmoderationAIM wrote:-&- Kalan..what I SEE in the Ali- Norton matches 1,2 is Ali not even being able to look AT Ken straight. Norton would be R., Ali would throw L.
He just was utterly confused by Ken.
He wasn't so much confused.. Ali had poor footwork---and if you cut the ring off on Ali he ended up on the ropes.. Norton took his time and worked Ali on the ropes---like Frazier did.. Foreman went apeshlt when he got Ali on the ropes -- which is something you teach sub-novice amateurs NOT to do.. A boxer has the advantage when his opponent is on the ropes.. You pop him between the gloves.. in the nose.. on the ears.. in the kidneys.. in the stomach.. He can't cover every scoring area behind his arms and gloves all at once...and you take your sweet time about it, because it's your round... Your opponent isn't doing a damned thing but hiding behind his gloves and baiting you ... This makes a horrible impression on the judges because you're doing all the work and he's goofing off.
So I thought Norton won all 3 Ali fights -- but he had to do more because it's Muhammad Ali... And Norton shouldn't have run his yap so much in the 3rd fight.. Mouthing off is Ali's game.. And yelling and screaming at Ali that he beat him right after the fight didn't make a great impression on the judges.
Kalan! I'll accept that! Good job! Are you a Trainer? You know, the Fighter fights; the trainer gets the fighter ready. But...in the fight itself/w/me....I found it best only to ASK corner *one finger to my lips! How come Trainers won't practice 'instructing' durring practice and then in a real match expect you to be able to take in?
I'm not saying I couldn't listen if we developed it but, most part trainers only shut-me-down in real match. I know what to do. Let me get into my trance and be natural. But..IF the trainer could make the difference certainly then I'd want it!
Yes!!! Let you get into your trance.. I was a trainer but I'm retired. People say I'm too highly critical of boxers and trainers, but here goes... One thing I don't like is trainers yelling instructions during a fight or a sparring match except for "no holding, no pushing" and other fouls... But some yell things like "JAB.. THROW THE UPPERCUT".. Like your opponent doesn't have ears??? Let the boxer think for himself without distraction during the action. He's trying to dial into whatever his opponent is doing and plan his own attack, feints, counters, and moves -- and you're distracting him by yelling at him.
And then between rounds they'll tell the boxer to step it up and throw more punches - because they can't think of anything better to say... That's when they SHOULD tell him why he got hit... what openings he's not seeing... and what punches and strategies he's neglecting... If he listens well he'll do it. Nobody needs to yell and scream at him. That just frustrates the boxer and pisses him off.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 22:05
by Controversial
allInmoderationAIM wrote:^ ^ ARE U gonna attend Gennady Vs Kell Brook??
Was planning to but sold out within 11 minutes !!
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 06 Aug 2016, 01:22
by Kalan
Two big punchers colliding... Golovkin-Brook is a scalper's dream.
How long would tickets last for Anthony Joshua vs Luis Ortiz.. I would have my order in if it's London or Vegas.. You have to be good to get those tix.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 06 Aug 2016, 04:14
by allInmoderationAIM
[quote=Kalan; "Ali had poor footwork---"]
Yes!!! Let you get into your trance.. I was a trainer but I'm retired. People say I'm too highly critical of boxers and trainers, but here goes... One thing I don't like is trainers yelling instructions during a fight or a sparring match except for "no holding, no pushing" and other fouls... But some yell things like "JAB.. THROW THE UPPERCUT".. Like your opponent doesn't have ears??? Let the boxer think for himself without distraction during the action. He's trying to dial into whatever his opponent is doing and plan his own attack, feints, counters, and moves -- and you're distracting him by yelling at him.
And then between rounds they'll tell the boxer to step it up and throw more punches - because they can't think of anything better to say... That's when they SHOULD tell him why he got hit... what openings he's not seeing... and what punches and strategies he's neglecting... If he listens well he'll do it. Nobody needs to yell and scream at him. That just frustrates the boxer and pisses him off.[/quote]
Maybe! Randy Gordon had some talk going on FB about "instruction outside the ring." Ny new is cracking down on the corner. It is a old rule anyway!
The boxer is the boss unless the corner man/trainer can establish a rapor. Very very important that that Steering wheel have a steady/ constant hand on it. The driving is FAST! Their is NO TIME for miscordination.
Where are you? England right? Soon as I *settle something ("dreaming") going to head out to Kansas City and check one good chap. Then, start again working out 4 or six weeks. Then I'm going to SA and train at Lehlohonolo Stone Ledwaba's site. SEE if can get something in that country that's realistic. I'm saying I am coming back for "four or three....." matches. But...that's start. May not even see that! But, if I can kick-it can see going thru SA to Russia (one match) then I'm free. Keep my guy for a year. Work a loose contract. I haven't met him yet. I'm someone I look for "structure". Leave it there for now.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 06 Aug 2016, 04:16
by allInmoderationAIM
"Step it up". At times you well know..that will be the perfect advice. And it is instruction that certainly is a prompt!
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 06 Aug 2016, 04:25
by allInmoderationAIM
You have heard of Referee John Callas? I got him started in Boxing. He was...."super star" for our college team &..took the 1985 National Collegiate title at featherweight.
I can't say how he is doing as a REF. I realize he had some critisisum. He's basically a "good kid" though! We had LOT OF FUN WITH HIM! [&..while WILDER couldn't STOP Bermane Stiverne..JOHN CALLAS sure could! (Check it out! Only a featherweight!)]