BoxRec

BoxBuzz wrote:http://www.craziestsportsfights.com/mis ... ing-world/


Jeff is victorious......As Floyd might be with Wilt.

(Boxing Related)

Just goes to prove, no matter how tall, strong, big or fit you are if you can't take a punch it all counts for nothing. The tall guy went 11-0 with 11kos, 10 in the 1st round but as soon as he stepped up the competition slightly he was knocked out.

Controversial wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:http://www.craziestsportsfights.com/mis ... ing-world/


Jeff is victorious......As Floyd might be with Wilt.

(Boxing Related)

Just goes to prove, no matter how tall, strong, big or fit you are if you can't take a punch it all counts for nothing. The tall guy went 11-0 with 11kos, 10 in the 1st round but as soon as he stepped up the competition slightly he was knocked out.

But in Kalan's mind, the fact that Chamberlain played basketball proves he could take a punch. Being fouled by basketball players is exactly equivalent to being punched in the jaw by trained heavyweight boxers.

There are many flaws in his arguments but this is of course one of the most glaring. If asked to justify it he just waffles and throws in the names of some obscure boxers he has looked up to try and make it look like he knows what he's talking about.

BoxBuzz wrote:I'll certain consider your request to talk boxing.

But when I posted this.....you didn't even bother to belittle it.

So.....here ya go.......whaddya think of his opinion that for a shorter boxer, there is hope for success?

Jeff does not have to submit to Mutt in every face off.

Or does he?

NO you won't consider my request to talk Boxing.. You also said you would review Valero's and Armstrong's fights ... You don't want to think or have an open mind.. You just want to talk sht.. You're being shoddy and sloppy again, comparing every bozo 6'6" and over with Wilt Chamberlain... It's like comparing every guy 6' to 6' 4" guy to Ali... Because they can't fight Ali can't fight right??? It's like you read ZERO posts I've ever written and nothing penetrates your cranium..

Most unusually tall guys are uncoordinated.. Especially this last lug you're showing who won by DQ because he got hit well after the bell.. Many tall guy in high school are too uncoordinated to play on the school Basketball team.. About 32 out of 33 who can play on high school teams can't make it onto college teams.. of 83 college players, 82 never make it in professional basketball.. However out of 400 odd players in the NBA Wilt Chamberlain was the best.. If you're lucky enough to play on your high school team you still have less than one chance in 3 thousand to play in the NBA.

If you want to play high school Basketball you try out for the team.. You have to make the cuts to play.. Same with college players.. Same with guys who are drafted by the NBA.. You have to make the team and chances are you won't survive the cuts.

But let's say you're a big, tall guy who was rejected by every high school sport you tried out for, But you're determined to be an athlete in some sport..

So you head down to the neighborhood Boxing Gym and tell them you want to learn how to box.. You have to sign some papers relieving the gym and trainers of any responsibility if you get hurt---and you start training.. You don't have to make any cut---so here you are, an athlete.. If you want to be a professional boxer they'll get you a license to box professionally---and possibly without any sparring to get you prepared, just shadow boxing and hitting the pads and bags, they might match you and get you half murdered in a 4-rounder by somebody who's had dozens of pro fights.. This happens all the time.. You can be part of some 3rd rate boxer's highlight reel.. Losers are in demand in Boxing... Especially big, tall ones... I've seen scenarios like this play out dozens of times.

However, let's say you've already been super successful in other sports and you know what competition and performance are all about... You'll be far less likely to let yourself be taken advantage of like that... And if you're Muhammad Ali you'll have the experience NOT to fight somebody like Wilt chamberlain who would murder his ass because he's so much bigger, stronger, better coordinated, more athletic, and can hit 10 times harder.

Kalan wrote: ... And if you're Muhammad Ali you'll have the experience NOT to fight somebody like Wilt chamberlain who would murder his ass because he's so much bigger, stronger, better coordinated, more athletic, and can hit 10 times harder.

Please show any evidence that Wilt Chamberlain could

a: punch
b: take a punch

Knocking out Clyde Lovellette doesn't count for a, and being fouled on basketball courts doesn't count for b.

gp. wrote:

Kalan wrote: ... And if you're Muhammad Ali you'll have the experience NOT to fight somebody like Wilt chamberlain who would murder his ass because he's so much bigger, stronger, better coordinated, more athletic, and can hit 10 times harder.

Please show any evidence that Wilt Chamberlain could

a: punch
b: take a punch

Knocking out Clyde Lovellette doesn't count for a, and being fouled on basketball courts doesn't count for b.

He didn't knock him out either, he dropped him. Still completely irrelevant either way.

gp. wrote:

Kalan wrote: ... And if you're Muhammad Ali you'll have the experience NOT to fight somebody like Wilt chamberlain who would murder his ass because he's so much bigger, stronger, better coordinated, more athletic, and can hit 10 times harder.

Please show any evidence that Wilt Chamberlain could

a: punch
b: take a punch

Knocking out Clyde Lovellette doesn't count for a, and being fouled on basketball courts doesn't count for b.

Play over 1200 NBA Basketball games against centers and power forwards who weigh 250 to 330 who all have elbows and forearms.. Let me know if you've ever taken any severe head bows during that time if you happen to be the greatest rebounder and scorer in the NBA.

He was a good good good good BBall player.....Speaking of Players....Gary Player was a good good good good golfer....guy couldn't bowl worth a damn.

well if Floyd Patterson had agreed to fight Wilt Chamberlain in 1961,
Chamberlain would probably have had to find another trainer.
I was thinking maybe Ingemar Johannson's trainer.
Because Johannson sort of fought in a rudimentery but effective style that worked well against Patterson (at least in the first fight anyway).

Kalan wrote:

gp. wrote:

Kalan wrote: ... And if you're Muhammad Ali you'll have the experience NOT to fight somebody like Wilt chamberlain who would murder his ass because he's so much bigger, stronger, better coordinated, more athletic, and can hit 10 times harder.

Please show any evidence that Wilt Chamberlain could

a: punch
b: take a punch

Knocking out Clyde Lovellette doesn't count for a, and being fouled on basketball courts doesn't count for b.

Play over 1200 NBA Basketball games against centers and power forwards who weigh 250 to 330 who all have elbows and forearms.. Let me know if you've ever taken any severe head bows during that time if you happen to be the greatest rebounder and scorer in the NBA.

Once again, that doesn't equate to boxing. Not in any way at all. Being occasionally elbowed by basketball players trying to disguise the fact they are doing it doesn't equate to being deliberately, repeatedly and openly punched by people trained to punch you. I can't see why you would think it does. Can you find anybody at all who agrees with you on this?

I see you gave up on finding any proof that he could punch.

Caractacus wrote:well if Floyd Patterson had agreed to fight Wilt Chamberlain in 1961,
Chamberlain would probably have had to find another trainer.
I was thinking maybe Ingemar Johannson's trainer.
Because Johannson sort of fought in a rudimentery but effective style that worked well against Patterson (at least in the first fight anyway).

That's because rudimentary works.. Keeping it simple works.. Many pro boxers lack a rudimentary body attack or a basic defense. Their trainers never boxed

Keeping it simple allows you to master the correct stance, balance, footwork, the basic punches, and the basic defenses for the basic punches... If you're a great athlete, with great size, strength, speed, agility, intelligence, and have a great trainer -- you can spar with a professional in a few months and show him up.. Even if he kicked your ass 1 month into your training, you've already surpassed him 4 months later because he's badly flawed.

There're about 20 reasons boxers get hit: You're head is too forward or other stance flaws... You're loading up your punches... Your footwork is messed up... Maybe you're trying to slip and duck every punch... Maybe your guard is too high, trying to block every punch... Your parries, dips, slips, shoulder rolls, and torso movements are flawed... You may be too stiff and need more agility and flexibility... Your feints are flawed and not fooling anybody... Your punching technique needs tweaking... You're trying to punch too hard Instead of focusing on timing, form, and accuracy...

Wherever you go wrong, a good trainer tells you between rounds "You're loading up. He sees everything you're throwing" A poor trainer will yell at you during the actual sparring when you're trying to think for yourself -- such as, "RIGHT UPPERCUT" or "LEFT HOOK" your opponent hears this obviously.. But when the round is over he doesn't tell you why you got hit. He asks you how you feel. Tells you to take deep breaths, and tells you to keep your hands up and throw more punches.. Besides telling you what you need to do between sparring rounds not during them, a good trainer will put bag gloves back on you after sparring and work out your flaws on the mitts - and that's why you'll progress much faster. You don't need the corkscrew punch, the cosmic punch, or the bolo punch - just the rudimentary science and Chamberlain had some great coaches lined up.

gp. wrote:

Kalan wrote:

gp. wrote:

Please show any evidence that Wilt Chamberlain could

a: punch
b: take a punch

Knocking out Clyde Lovellette doesn't count for a, and being fouled on basketball courts doesn't count for b.

Play over 1200 NBA Basketball games against centers and power forwards who weigh 250 to 330 who all have elbows and forearms.. Let me know if you've ever taken any severe head bows during that time if you happen to be the greatest rebounder and scorer in the NBA.

Once again, that doesn't equate to boxing. Not in any way at all. Being occasionally elbowed by basketball players trying to disguise the fact they are doing it doesn't equate to being deliberately, repeatedly and openly punched by people trained to punch you. I can't see why you would think it does. Can you find anybody at all who agrees with you on this?

I see you gave up on finding any proof that he could punch.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=169172

1964... "Rudolph and Strom officiated another notable game in the 1964 NBA Finals. [18] In Game 5 of the championship series, Wilt Chamberlain, playing for the San Francisco Warriors, knocked out Clyde Lovellette of the Boston Celtics with a punch. [4] Celtics head coach Red Auerbach stormed onto the court and demanded that Chamberlain be thrown out of the game. [4] The latter told Auerbach if he did not "shut up", he would be knocked down to the floor with Lovellette. [4] Auerbach countered the threat, "Why don't you pick on somebody your own size." Rudolph intervened the discussion and told Auerbach, "Red, do you have any other seven-footers who'd like to volunteer?"

Kalan wrote:

gp. wrote:

Kalan wrote:
Play over 1200 NBA Basketball games against centers and power forwards who weigh 250 to 330 who all have elbows and forearms.. Let me know if you've ever taken any severe head bows during that time if you happen to be the greatest rebounder and scorer in the NBA.

Once again, that doesn't equate to boxing. Not in any way at all. Being occasionally elbowed by basketball players trying to disguise the fact they are doing it doesn't equate to being deliberately, repeatedly and openly punched by people trained to punch you. I can't see why you would think it does. Can you find anybody at all who agrees with you on this?

I see you gave up on finding any proof that he could punch.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=169172

1964... "Rudolph and Strom officiated another notable game in the 1964 NBA Finals. [18] In Game 5 of the championship series, Wilt Chamberlain, playing for the San Francisco Warriors, knocked out Clyde Lovellette of the Boston Celtics with a punch. [4] Celtics head coach Red Auerbach stormed onto the court and demanded that Chamberlain be thrown out of the game. [4] The latter told Auerbach if he did not "shut up", he would be knocked down to the floor with Lovellette. [4] Auerbach countered the threat, "Why don't you pick on somebody your own size." Rudolph intervened the discussion and told Auerbach, "Red, do you have any other seven-footers who'd like to volunteer?"

Good story. Ya know what's still a fact after that story? Wilt Chamberlain wasn't a boxer. A lot of people can knock a guy out with a sucker punch.

Kalan wrote:

gp. wrote:

Kalan wrote:
Play over 1200 NBA Basketball games against centers and power forwards who weigh 250 to 330 who all have elbows and forearms.. Let me know if you've ever taken any severe head bows during that time if you happen to be the greatest rebounder and scorer in the NBA.

Once again, that doesn't equate to boxing. Not in any way at all. Being occasionally elbowed by basketball players trying to disguise the fact they are doing it doesn't equate to being deliberately, repeatedly and openly punched by people trained to punch you. I can't see why you would think it does. Can you find anybody at all who agrees with you on this?

I see you gave up on finding any proof that he could punch.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=169172

1964... "Rudolph and Strom officiated another notable game in the 1964 NBA Finals. [18] In Game 5 of the championship series, Wilt Chamberlain, playing for the San Francisco Warriors, knocked out Clyde Lovellette of the Boston Celtics with a punch. [4] Celtics head coach Red Auerbach stormed onto the court and demanded that Chamberlain be thrown out of the game. [4] The latter told Auerbach if he did not "shut up", he would be knocked down to the floor with Lovellette. [4] Auerbach countered the threat, "Why don't you pick on somebody your own size." Rudolph intervened the discussion and told Auerbach, "Red, do you have any other seven-footers who'd like to volunteer?"

You know if you say a thing 100 times, that doesn't mean it happened 100 times. He once hit a basketball player who fell over. This doesn't mean he could hit a boxer and make them fall over.
So your argument is basically :

- Anyone who has played a lot of basketball games can take a punch at elite boxer level (because there's no reason to believe Wilt got knocked about any more than any other team's star players)

- Someone who has been known once, and once only, to knock down a basketball player is PLAINLY (to you) a better puncher than the vast majority of heavyweight boxers.

Do even you agree with this put like this?

Don't repeat stories or show me pictures, please.

He hit a 6'10" X 250 power forward with one punch and knocked him out... Ali hit Leon Spinks (6' X 197) with hundreds of punches and couldn't floor the neophyte... Despite the fact that Leon Spinks was knocked out 9 times in his career by better punchers than Ali.

Kalan wrote:He hit a 6'10" X 250 power forward with one punch and knocked him out... Ali hit Leon Spinks (6' X 197) with hundreds of punches and couldn't floor the neophyte... Despite the fact that Leon Spinks was knocked out 9 times in his career by better punchers than Ali.

Wilt Chamberlain still wasn't a boxer...and Leon Spinks would've whipped his ass.

Kalan wrote:He hit a 6'10" X 250 power forward with one punch and knocked him out... Ali hit Leon Spinks (6' X 197) with hundreds of punches and couldn't floor the neophyte... Despite the fact that Leon Spinks was knocked out 9 times in his career by better punchers than Ali.

Neophyte? He won the Olympic Gold Medal.

Kalan wrote:He hit a 6'10" X 250 power forward with one punch and knocked him out... Ali hit Leon Spinks (6' X 197) with hundreds of punches and couldn't floor the neophyte... Despite the fact that Leon Spinks was knocked out 9 times in his career by better punchers than Ali.

Do you honestly, honestly think that the fact a man knocked out another man ONCE, even if that is true, shows that they could punch? When we know nothing about the resistance of then man he knocked out, little about the circumstances (we have no idea if Lovellette was even looking), and it is of course impossible to draw a general inference from a single incident?

No quoting weights and heights or the records of Ali's opponents please. Just a simple yes or no to the question.

gp. wrote:

Kalan wrote:He hit a 6'10" X 250 power forward with one punch and knocked him out... Ali hit Leon Spinks (6' X 197) with hundreds of punches and couldn't floor the neophyte... Despite the fact that Leon Spinks was knocked out 9 times in his career by better punchers than Ali.

Do you honestly, honestly think that the fact a man knocked out another man ONCE, even if that is true, shows that they could punch? When we know nothing about the resistance of then man he knocked out, little about the circumstances (we have no idea if Lovellette was even looking), and it is of course impossible to draw a general inference from a single incident?

No quoting weights and heights or the records of Ali's opponents please. Just a simple yes or no to the question.

The key factor here is that Clyde was a POWER forward. I mean it's obvious he was hard as nails. Isn't it?

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I'll certain consider your request to talk boxing.

But when I posted this.....you didn't even bother to belittle it.

So.....here ya go.......whaddya think of his opinion that for a shorter boxer, there is hope for success?

Jeff does not have to submit to Mutt in every face off.

Or does he?

NO

Correct and Succinct! You and I are in agreement. Now remember this thread is about Floyd Patterson and why Wilt never stepped up to fight him.

The list of HW champs that Wilt avoided, appears to go on and on.

(Just wanting to get back on topic)

Patterson was asked. He said he'd leave boxing if Wilt turned changed sports. "I'd go into Basketball ... or try to make Light Heavyweight."

You're all mixed up again. We agree on 1 thing. Most big tall men are so hopelessly uncoordinated and unathletic they would never make the NBA.

Coaching is a larger part of an athlete or team’s success than most fans realize. John Wooden’s Basketball teams were characterized by stronger rebound positioning, better ball handling, smoother floor running, sharper and more accurate passing, precision play running, higher percentage shot selections, fewer turnovers, cleaner steals, interceptions and shot blocking, leading to fewer fouls called on the Bruins, and producing national championships. Not rocket science -- just great coaching.

Let’s say Dominic Breazeale had Anthony Joshua’s boxing coaches -- instead of the guys he's got.

Dom is sparring. The coach yells, “TIME, F*K, STOP. DOM, you’re 6’7” and have a tremendous reach. Why are you trading punches? Use your height. Use your jab. Use your feet. Use your range my man. TIME IN” Another 30 seconds goes by “WHOOA, F*K, STOP. DOM!! ... You’re trading punches champ. We want to see boxing skills and ring generalship. Time in.” But he doesn’t do any better. Later they do mitts and the coach makes adjustments to Breazeale’s stance.. corrects his torso.. moves his shoulder position.. his hand placement.. gets his head back.. shows him the right footwork and how to time his jab to get better deception, range, and pop on the weapon.. how to setup his right leads and counters with the right timing.. So the next day DB will be swinging a little less and boxing a little more... because now he knows more. After a month or so he’s already vastly improved to the point where he’s learned more than he has in 7 years with 3rd rate coaches.

Wilt Chamberlain would have had the advantage of having top flight boxing coaches from Jump Street. He’d never develop all those bad habits to start with. Chamberlain was also an extremely technical thinker. That’s why his individual stats were better than any of the other 400 players in the NBA year after year. He said he instinctively sought out the more knowledgeable coaches by asking questions. Great coaches have great answers - which is something you can’t do in the NBA or ANY team sport. In professional team sports you’re stuck with the coaches your team’s management selects – but in Boxing you choose your own coaches.

I think Wilt Chamberlain's uppercut would have been the key,
that and his telephone pole like jab.